Christenings

Reflector

Hi,
Just want to get some opinions. My Brothers and Sisters are all starting to have children and all of them are having them christened. Now none of my family are very religious and since we were old enough we all stopped going to church so why sign up your kids to something you don't want yourself.
Also as a gay man I find the churches stance on certain issues quite irrehensible and some of their past atrocities quite alarming. If my brother or sister announced that they was having their inducted into a neo-nazi organization I would find that quite alarming also. Why is this still so important????

Biggins

None of my children have been christened. If they chose to do so at a later stage when they can think for themselves, they can do, as is their right.

I don't believe in just doing something just because everyone else has done it beforehand.

Because possibly:
a/ it's the done thing and they haven't thought any differently
b/ so the kids have any hope of getting into a school without being on waiting lists forever.

All that said I would not have my children christened should I ever have any.

rainbowtrout

Because most of the primary schools in this country are under the patronage of the Catholic church and can refuse admission to a child that is not a Catholic/is not baptised, especially when there is competition for places.

If I have children in the future I would not get them christened either, they can do it themselves when they're older if they want to.

li@mo

bluewolf wrote: »

Because possibly:
a/ it's the done thing and they haven't thought any differently
b/ so the kids have any hope of getting into a school without being on waiting lists forever.

All that said I would not have my children christened should I ever have any.

exactly.

minidazzler

People generally get their kids christened for one of 3 general reason. (I know I am generalising, but I am not saying everybody.)

1. They are genuinly religious and want their kids to be.
2. Because it is expected.
3. For a Pissup.

Genghiz Cohen

I was talking to a man out the back of a pub one night, he was completly Athiest but had his children christened because all of the other kids were and he didn't want his kids to be the odd ones out when it came to first communion and such, he despised the fact that it had to be done for them to be considered normal and I agree with him.

I asked him did he teach his kids to be Christian and he said the if his kids asked him "Why was Jesus [etc]" he would reply "Well some people believe that [etc]" leaving them open to think for themselves.
Which is admirable, subscribing your kids to something he does nit believe so they can have a 'normal' childhood.

Genghiz Cohen

Genghiz Cohen wrote:

Which is admirable, subscribing your kids to something he does nit believe so they can have a 'normal' childhood.

I don't. I think the longer people sign their kids up to religion they don't themselves believe because it's "normal", the longer it will go on and everyone else will continue to feel pressure to do likewise.
Children are not there to make a political point with, obviously, but there are other ways of helping them around primary school - because it's just part of primary school it would make a difference in - without going through that farce. They feel left out at communion, then bring them out somewhere and get them pretty clothes too. Ditto for confirmation.
And the longer people pander to the education system by having their children christened so they can go to school - because they do - the longer that will continue as well, and it won't solve the problem.

phasers

According to my currently pregnant sister, she'll be baptising her kid because it's "the done thing" and she wants to get them into a good school when they're older.I don't really see the big deal, In fairness if you don't believe in it then it's just water on your head isn't it?

GirlInterrupted

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I was talking to a man out the back of a pub one night, he was completly Athiest but had his children christened because all of the other kids were and he didn't want his kids to be the odd ones out when it came to first communion and such, he despised the fact that it had to be done for them to be considered normal and I agree with him.

I had a normal childhood.

I was raised an atheist by atheist parents. I was never teased, bullied, or discrimminated against as a child because of it. I'm 26, and things are even more enlightened now.

The perception of being different in a religious sense, is a bit out of line with the reality.

conlonbmw

People are morons

The majority are non religous, but they still let the clergy get involved with funerals, marriage and the rest.

Religon is fiction!

It was created out of superstition which is also fiction.

Why do you need a man in a dress telling you things that do not make any sense.

NibNib

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because most of the primary schools in this country are under the patronage of the Catholic church and can refuse admission to a child that is not a Catholic/is not baptised, especially when there is competition for places.

My friend told me that her friend had all the children baptised in order to get them into a certain private catholic school...

SilkySmooth

Reflector wrote: »

Hi,
Just want to get some opinions. My Brothers and Sisters are all starting to have children and all of them are having them christened. Now none of my family are very religious and since we were old enough we all stopped going to church so why sign up your kids to something you don't want yourself.
Also as a gay man I find the churches stance on certain issues quite irrehensible and some of their past atrocities quite alarming. If my brother or sister announced that they was having their inducted into a neo-nazi organization I would find that quite alarming also. Why is this still so important????

you make it seem like the church is the same thing as a neo-nazi organisation:rolleyes:

JuliusCaesar

conlonbmw wrote: »

Why do you need a man in a dress telling you things that do not make any sense.

Like this?

Diabhal Beag

People who aren't religious and who get christened are such hypocrits. They are always the first the bash the church yet they are unknowingly apart of it. If you are one of those people I don't respect your human rights.

ejmaztec

Biggins wrote: »

I don't believe in just doing something just because everyone else has done it beforehand.

What about reproduction? :P

wolfpawnat

I am heavily pregnant at the moment, I am being told I have to get the baby christened by my OH's mother, otherwise she'll do it behind my back! I was in shock, surely it should be up to me and my OH what we want!

wolfpawnat

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am heavily pregnant at the moment, I am being told I have to get the baby christened by my OH's mother, otherwise she'll do it behind my back! I was in shock, surely it should be up to me and my OH what we want!

Tell her if she abducts your child... well... you can guess the rest

Thrill

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am heavily pregnant at the moment, I am being told I have to get the baby christened by my OH's mother, otherwise she'll do it behind my back! I was in shock, surely it should be up to me and my OH what we want!

Get a barring order.

Fast.

wolfpawnat

I'll be staying in her house after the baby is born, so it'd be hard to prove abduction when all she'd have to say is she went to the shops. I will probably choose to get it done, but I rather sit back and think about it. I noticed Dublin has non-denminational schools so its not that important up here.

Biggins

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am heavily pregnant at the moment, I am being told I have to get the baby christened by my OH's mother, otherwise she'll do it behind my back! I was in shock, surely it should be up to me and my OH what we want!

My mother said that and I told her, if she did, she would NEVER see any of her kids again - and I would see her and the catholic church embarrassed in the media.
I threatened to sue the church by the way to have such actions revoked!
...and by god she knows what I'm like - I meant every word of it!

She'd never cross our door again and my wife is 100% behind me.

Get in a head of her. Do up a letter explaining your position and send it (by registered post if you feel necessary) to every church in the area and to HQ in Armagh, telling them that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are they to carry out such action otherwise you WILL see them in court.

Dudess

If I've kids, they're going to a non denominational school so I'll have no reason for that christening bullsh1t.

Alter-Ego

Little Shyte wrote: »

People who aren't religious and who get christened are such hypocrits. They are always the first the bash the church yet they are unknowingly apart of it. If you are one of those people I don't respect your human rights.

Shame on me for chosing to get baptised...at 2 months old.

*Forfeits human rights*

wolfpawnat

Biggins wrote: »

My mother said that and I told her, if she did, she would NEVER see any of her kids again - and I would see her and the catholic church embarrassed in the media.
I threatened to sue the church by the way to have such actions revoked!
...and by god she knows what I'm like - I meant every word of it!

She'd never cross our door again and my wife is 100% behind me.

Yes that actually isn't a bad idea, she thinks I am forced to stay with her due to lack of places to go when the baby is born, but I would rather try to rent a new house than have what I decide disrespected. I still haven't decided what I'll do but damn it its my choice. The only person who will have a say except me is the OH and even at that he can't force anything!

Good luck getting your kids into a decent school if they are not christened. Its even worse in the UK if you want to get your children into a catholic school(which are miles ahead of community schools a lot of which are very bad).

To get into a catholic secondary school in the UK, first the child must have been baptised before they are 6 months old and both parents must be catholic with their baptism cert to prove it. They then operate a points system. A child get points for serving mass, being in the choir etc and the parents get points for cleaning the church, being in the choir, giving out communion etc. A child(+parents points) has to have a certain number of points before they can even apply. The the child's suitability is then accessed. People are mad to get into the schools so 10 times more people apply than there are places so you cant really pick which catholic school, you apply to lots and are awarded a place in which ever one decides to accept you.

taram

There's a good argument on the fact you need to be christened to get into most schools here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055450771

This is the only thing my bf and I have ever properly argued on, he wants our children brought up Catholic, despite being a Weddings/Funeral Catholic :mad: am still bitter :P

Biggins

Alfonso Many Lodging wrote: »

Good luck getting your kids into a decent school if they are not christened...

While I get what your saying, there is no way that the Roman Catholic organisation is going force/blackmail us into subjecting our children into a religion/"cult of religious thinking" that they have no choice in but to be subjected to - just to get a school place.

Should the government try to force our kids into a building that is subjects them to a one sided religion indoctrination, I guess the Irish government will have a first unique law suit on their hands.

If they offer to allow our children to abstain from such classes - that can be a possible compromise - otherwise and we have discussed this at length, the government will find itself in the Dublin courts on the grounds of religion and discrimination.

taram

Biggins wrote: »

While I get what your saying, there is no way that the Roman Catholic organisation is going force/blackmail us into subjecting our children into a religion/"cult of religious thinking" that they have no choice in but to be subjected to - just to get a school place.

Should the government try to force our kids into a building that is subjects them to a one sided religion indoctrination, I guess the Irish government will have a first unique law suit on their hands.

If they offer to allow our children to abstain from such classes - that can be a possible compromise - otherwise and we have discussed this at length, the government will find itself in the Dublin courts on the grounds of religion and discrimination.

Sorry to tell you this, but seriously, have you tried get a kid into a Catholic school without going through hoops? One of my friend's little one was baptised in a great hurry in an August because he was told she can't enter the school without being baptised. Told him to call their bluff, but she was 5 and he was scared she wouldn't get into the school. It's a very real ransom they're holding us to.

Biggins

taram wrote: »

Sorry to tell you this, but seriously, have you tried get a kid into a Catholic school without going through hoops? One of my friend's little one was baptised in a great hurry in an August because he was told she can't enter the school without being baptised. Told him to call their bluff, but she was 5 and he was scared she wouldn't get into the school. It's a very real ransom they're holding us to.

Thats just it, we don't want then in a Catholic school!
And yes, we have done our research. We have them signed up to a non-denomination school. After that, if things get difficult, we'll deal with it as seen fit - except they, the kids not being forced into a one sided religious lesson(s).

JohnGalt

They can be bad news, particularly if there are issues in the family. For example, at a recent family christening, one of my uncles, who had gotten a rather sizable loan from my father, had the audacity to inform my father that he would not be paying him for another two months. My father had already lost his patience with the man, and landed a firm blow on his chin in the middle of the church. It ended up being quite a scene, really regrettable

tony1kenobi

I disagree with everybody.

I think all babies should be baptized. Otherwise they'll never have the opportunity to turn their backs on religion and bitch about it on the internet.

Everyone here is selfish and I bet if Jesus was real he'd be crying now.....I know Batman is.

kincsem

Many years back an Indian gave me a lecture about Catholic schools in India not allowing non-Catholic children. Why did he / other Hindi / Buddhist / agnostic children want to go there? He wanted people of another religion to buy buildings and pay for teaching staff, but he / his family would not contribute, and would criticise the religion.

That confused me a little. If you have strong beliefs (i.e. you don't believe) then join those with similar beliefs and get your schooling in their schools. Your children will not be brainwashed there.

You can't have it every way.


\o/ 1400 posts

GirlInterrupted

Taxpayers money, regardless of the religion of that taxpayer, is paid by the Government to the Church run schools to provide a state education for Irish children.

If they take your money, and give it to people who refuse to educate you, that is theft. All Irish children are entitled to a state education.

If you are refused a school place on the basis of the religion, or lack of one, of your child, you must surely be entitled to a refund of the taxes that would have been apportioned to education.

To give the Church the power to deny your child the right to education unless you bend to their will, and to have that power sponsored by the state, using your money, is a shameful state of affairs that makes the seperation of Church and State all the more urgent.

KieranKennedy

JohnGalt wrote: »

They can be bad news, particularly if there are issues in the family. For example, at a recent family christening, one of my uncles, who had gotten a rather sizable loan from my father, had the audacity to inform my father that he would not be paying him for another two months. My father had already lost his patience with the man, and landed a firm blow on his chin in the middle of the church. It ended up being quite a scene, really regrettable

Whether you respect religion or not, that is no way to behave in a church or any other public place

tony1kenobi

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

If they take your money, and give it to people who refuse to educate you, that is theft.

Except when it's Robin Hood.

RATM

JohnGalt wrote: »

They can be bad news, particularly if there are issues in the family. For example, at a recent family christening, one of my uncles, who had gotten a rather sizable loan from my father, had the audacity to inform my father that he would not be paying him for another two months. My father had already lost his patience with the man, and landed a firm blow on his chin in the middle of the church. It ended up being quite a scene, really regrettable

Pics or GTFO:D

I'd say the organ player might have missed a note when your father decked his brother in the middle of the church:p

What was the afters like ?

Biggins

RATM wrote: »

...What was the afters like ?

Don't be silly. It was a great bash!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Biggins wrote: »

None of my children have been christened. If they chose to do so at a later stage when they can think for themselves, they can do, as is their right.

I don't believe in just doing something just because everyone else has done it beforehand.

I said the exact same thing, but of course, herself has other ideas Funniest thing is, it's to make other people happy, such as the older generation of the family. Load of crap if you ask me...

MementoMori

As regards the getting into a Catholic school aspect, I wonder if you could just tell the school the kid is baptised. If they ask for a baptism cert forge one - cant imagine them cross-checking. If they find out you forged it go "so sorry I told a lie for the good of my child's education. Forgive me - ok thx bai. Oh by the way I don't want my child forced into any of your religous education"

Imagine a situation where the Minister of Education said to the Church "Look given the history of your organisation with regard to the sexual abuse of children in your care and the fact that as an organisation you've done your best to obstruct the rule of law with regard to this, along with the fact that you have ended up sticking the government with the bill for the compensation relating to this, we don't think you should have anything whatsoever to do with the care or education of any children in this state. While you may claim ownership of these school buildings, the truth is that pretty much all upkeep or maintenance in the last fifty years has been paid for by either the government or parents, so we don't think you can justifiably claim that these building belong to you anymore. Also the original funding of these buildings came at a time when the church funding used to pay for them was a defacto public tax. You are not fit to have anything whatsoever to do with kids. Vanish"

I think the main reason the Catholic Church is clinging on to it's patron status in schools is to try and retain a hold/control over people. The sooner this ends the better. I wonder by how much exactly the level of baptisms would drop if the whole schools thing was taken away.

useful_contacts

bluewolf wrote: »

Because possibly:
a/ it's the done thing and they haven't thought any differently
b/ so the kids have any hope of getting into a school without being on waiting lists forever.

All that said I would not have my children christened should I ever have any.

As far as i know your child cant make their communion without first being christined, how would an 8 year old feel being told "sorry you cant make your communion with the rest of your friends as you were never christned"

Thats poor child would feel very left out and would prob get abuse from the other children.

taram

useful_contacts wrote: »

As far as i know your child cant make their communion without first being christined, how would an 8 year old feel being told "sorry you cant make your communion with the rest of your friends as you were never christned"

Thats poor child would feel very left out and would prob get abuse from the other children.

I didn't want to make my communion but had to :P my best friend wasn't Catholic, she got nothing but envy from our group of tomboy friends for not having to wear a dress, plus she got a day off school for pre-communion rehershals. Bitch TBH, if they were gonna get slagged, it would have happened pre-communion age when the class knew they weren't of that faith, it's not a big deal, all kids get slagged over something, might as well be something the parents believe in and raise the child in rather than being from Kerry or something.

Tom Trojan

Break a bottle of champagne on their bows.

chasm

My family returned to Ireland in the 80's and although my parents had decided to leave it up to us to decide on our own religion, that all changed when they tried to enrol us at a school. We had to go for special classes in a nearby town and I was christened and had my communion on the one day! My Father was brought up Catholic but my Mother had no religion at all. Despite this though i remember going to sunday school for about a year as a child, though to this day i couldnt say what religion the sunday school belonged to! I just loved hearing the bible stories, and getting Jelly Babies if you answered a question correctly!!
I am a catholic, though more a weddings and funeral kind, But as God mother to 6 of my 8 nieces and nephews I would say that i take that role quite seriously- though maybe not the dragging them to mass part! I know my sister picked me for the role for her children as she said she would like me to care for her children should anything happen to her or her husband-Though whether that stands for anything in this day and age i dont know(legally i mean!)

Crumble Froo

bluewolf wrote: »

Because possibly:
a/ it's the done thing and they haven't thought any differently
b/ so the kids have any hope of getting into a school without being on waiting lists forever.

All that said I would not have my children christened should I ever have any.

but... ok, unless ive missed something, you're still living in america, right? and would consider the hypothetical kids to be growing up wehre you're living?

i know, if i had my kids here in nz, i definitely wouldnt christen htem...

but if i had htem in ireland, and knew it'd help their chances of getting into a decent/local school... i probably would.

would your choice be different if you were living back home?