Less Railway in 2009 than 1930. why?

Munsterforever

I was on the bus from Sligo to Letterkenny, and I could see for myself that there used to be a railway line running through the Barnesmore Gap (Between Donegal town and Ballyboffey).

So this morning I looked for a railway map of Ireland from 1930, and to my suspicion there were trains running from everywhere to everywhere!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Old_irish_railways_enhanced.jpg

If the government wants us to use public transport more and cut carbon emissions, then they really should set about re-opening and upgrading ALL of these railways.

Its not hard! The Brits did it in Ireland using pre-1900's technology, The Germans and the Japanese can get where they want to go on a train at VERY high speeds, so why cant we!?!?!

And to think public transport in Ireland nearly 80 years ago was more extensive than it is now.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

demakinz

what happened to the old lines.im from edenderry co offaly(which is a big town with a major boom in population in recent years) and we had a train station before my time and it would be so much easier to travel to dublin by train.it would take so many cars off the road.if board na mona can build tracks criss crossing the bog of allen surley someone can build a track from edenderry to enfield.
no matter what country you visit you can go where you like by train.instead of sitting on a cold slow expencive bus like we do.

edenderry to dublin return by bus=€20.. 1 hour 40 minutes
enfield to dublin return by train =€10..1 hour

stevedublin

lower population now than in 1930, also more people have cars

Covey

I was in the local tourist office in Castlegregory, Co. kerry last August on a bleak and rain soaked winters day (remember that :eek:). In came two middle aged tourists saoked to the skin and enquired when the next bus to Tralee was.

Without even a change of facial expression, the girl said, "it's next Friday". Yes thats right nearly a week to wait for the weekly bus and in a tourist area at that. Public transport my eye.

Oh and yes Castlegregory had a railway line and from those who remember a busy service.

Schuhart

Munsterforever wrote: »

If the government wants us to use public transport more and cut carbon emissions, then they really should set about re-opening and upgrading ALL of these railways.

No, because it would only reduce carbon emissions if those services actually carried passengers. By and large, the reason these services were closed in the 1950s was because CIE was running massive losses on services that were poorly patronised. The State had to take on a debt of something like £16 million related to those accumulated losses on rail services - sounds modest today, but this was something like twice the annual education budget in 1958. Keeping the services going simply wasn't an option.

Munsterforever wrote: »

Its not hard! The Brits did it in Ireland using pre-1900's technology, The Germans and the Japanese can get where they want to go on a train at VERY high speeds, so why cant we!?!?!

Because they are much larger countries, with much higher density of population. We think nothing of letting people build one-off houses in any random field, which cuts away the very density in population that might support public transport.

Munsterforever wrote: »

And to think public transport in Ireland nearly 80 years ago was more extensive than it is now.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Perhaps, but don't equate public transport with rail. Generally, our population density is such that bus is a better option, if your are really interested in doing something that actually provides car uses with an alternative.

Covey wrote: »

Yes thats right nearly a week to wait for the weekly bus and in a tourist area at that. Public transport my eye.

Oh and yes Castlegregory had a railway line and from those who remember a busy service.

In fairness, wouldn't the first step just be to have a more regular bus to see if demand is there. Doolin, also a tourist trap, has a regular bus service.

Memories of rail usage may be correct in the case of Castlegregory, or may be faulty. The general experience was that rail was simply a source of public service employment, and a costly one at that. Its value as a means of transport was more suspect. You'll probably have heard the story of the delegation from West Cork going to Dublin by car to protest to Todd Andrews about the proposal to close their rail service.

We need to do a lot of stuff before reinstating rail lines would be worth doing.

Munsterforever

We cant just give low population density as a sorry excuse to have ****e public transport, if you look at the 1930's map all of the railway lines go to areas of high population density such as large towns. Im not talking about sticking a train station in the middle of a field somewhere.

For example... Why can't I get a train from Letterkenny to Derry or even to Dublin. There is no train between Sligo and Galway either, even though it would carry the same amount of passengers that go to Dublin

If this was Germany, there would be trains between Derry, Letterkenny, Ballyboffey, and every large town in the country, and they would go to each other and not all uselessly only go to Dublin.

If you use population density for an excuse, then why is there a train station in somewhere like Boyle in Co. Roscommon where roughly 3 poeple live!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Schuhart

Munsterforever wrote: »

We cant just give low population density as a sorry excuse to have ****e public transport, if you look at the 1930's map all of the railway lines go to areas of high population density such as large towns. Im not talking about sticking a train station in the middle of a field somewhere.

Well, the only problem is that low population density is the reason that rail is not generally a useful form of public transport in this country. So, I'm afraid I have to say this as its simply the situation.

And, indeed, allowing development to sprawl out into the countryside makes public transport even more costly and unfeasible. To get a picture of this, consider that the rural school transport service carries about 45 million passengers a year, but costs the State double what it costs for Bus Atha Cliath to move 148 million passengers a year.

Dispersed population simply is the issue.

Munsterforever wrote: »

There is no train between Sligo and Galway either, even though it would carry the same amount of passengers that go to Dublin

Well, no, it wouldn't. The actual experience with the Ennis-Limerick service is that most of the passengers are actually travelling on or from Dublin. The idea that rail would find a demand simply isn't realistic.

Munsterforever wrote: »

If this was Germany, there would be trains between Derry, Letterkenny, Ballyboffey, and every large town in the country, and they would go to each other and not all uselessly only go to Dublin.

If it was Germany, we'd have a population of 100 million and our rail services would connect us to many cities with 1 million plus populations in other countries.

Whereas here, as you've hinted, the only services that actually have the same potential are Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork. The existing Western routes are marginal and probably only provided out of fear of the political reaction to stopping them.

Munsterforever wrote: »

If you use population density for an excuse, then why is there a train station in somewhere like Boyle in Co. Roscommon where roughly 3 poeple live!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Because of politics, nothing else. Indeed, the Westport service stops at every rock in the road once it crosses the Shannon. Carries damn all passengers, too, apart from a couple of individual services at weekends. I've travelled on it during the week and, indeed, you do find yourself wondering how much this is costing.

Covey

When you're talking of railways though you should factor in a lot of variables.

Sure, the railways were closed as they were unviable at the time. There was mass emmigration, little tourism etc. Today we have different factors like carbon emmisions, tourism, bigger towns etc.

We need to think outside the box a little bit and encourage people off the roads and into trains. That won't happen only by laying new track, but has to be a mixture of availability, service and value for money.

It's no good providing a service somewhere, where it doesn't bring you to work and home on time for instance. Summer schedules should put more focus on the tourist for instance and liase with attractions and their schedules. The rail should be more pro-active in marketing itself to it's potential userbase.

The Westport line is mentioned above (negatively), yet, I'm sure a morning and evening service from Ballyhaunis - Westport would be full. Why can't start and end points not be more fexible.

As someone who has lived in rural Germany, their rural services don't pay for themselves either, nor do most countries in Europe. So lets not play the cost card only and look how we can improve things for everyone.

Cool Mo D

It's also the case that the railways that were closed were generally of desperate quality, and would be much slower than a modern bus. For example, the railway that used to go from Tralee to Dingle took over 2 hours!

The simple reason that there was so much rail 100 years ago, is because there were no cars. Rail was slow and unreliable, so when people could afford cars, they stopped using it.

The only way rail makes sense now is where it can offer a better service than the car - and fill a train with passengers too. This means either express links between important population centres, or busy commuter trains where roads are slow and congested. Rural routes, by there very nature will be slow, as they must make many stops, and will not attract passengers due to low population density. Rural routes will always lose money hand over fist.

ardmacha

We need to think outside the box a little bit and encourage people off the roads and into trains. That won't happen only by laying new track, but has to be a mixture of availability, service and value for money.

Is this a fantasy thread? Availability and service requires a lot of trains and value for money requires cheap ones, so the service would lose money hand over fist. You cannot seriously start such a thread when the country is already borrowing 10% of its expenditure and cutting people wages and services. There was never a train from Sligo to Letterkenny and even if there was there would not a trainload of passengers wishing to use it in the entire day.

Which is not to say that there cannot be improvements on the existing network.

marmurr1916

stevedublin wrote: »

lower population now than in 1930, also more people have cars

Higher population now than in 1930 although most households now have cars (and much faster cars at that).

Plus the road network has greatly improved and many of the closed railways would now be loss-making if still open.

Ireland needs a core network of inter-city railways to connect Dublin to Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford plus connections between Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway.

The bulk of investment in railways should be put into these lines, especially investment that will improve travel times (by improving IE's rolling stock, track and signalling to allow for trains travelling at 160+km/h) and lead to greater service frequency.

Other long-distance routes (eg. Dublin-Sligo, Dublin-Wexford) require less investment but should be improved to allow for average speeds of 120 km/h so that the railway speeds remain competitive with motorway speeds.

kingshankly

as a previous poster said these services are just not viable,take docklands for example people were crying out for it to open and it is now reduced to a couple of services in the morning and evening.
and newly open adamstown has a very low footfall.
if irish rail are struggling to make money on busy commuter trains i cant see it being viable to re open old lines

Carawaystick

Munsterforever wrote: »

I was on the bus from Sligo to Letterkenny, and I could see for myself that there used to be a railway line running through the Barnesmore Gap (Between Donegal town and Ballyboffey).

So this morning I looked for a railway map of Ireland from 1930, and to my suspicion there were trains running from everywhere to everywhere!

How does the bus network now compare to 1930?
How many free seats were on the bus you were on?

Cool Mo D

This is the modern Bus Eireann network map - it easily covers all the old rail services.

rekrow

Covey wrote: »

It's no good providing a service somewhere, where it doesn't bring you to work and home on time for instance. Summer schedules should put more focus on the tourist for instance and liase with attractions and their schedules.

Exactly, this is the problem with rail for Ireland. The way most towns and cities have developed over the last 20 years more people are living and working away from centres. The great white elephant that will be the new Ennis Galway service will not benefit many users. It passes through some of the least populated towns in the county. It was re run along an old route and the decision to re open it was purely political and was made long after much of the development in the region was approved. The train leaving Galway passes the Army baracks, virtually all green field, through renmore and out past Oranmore. The problem here is that Oranmore has developed away from the railway line out towards Maree. All countryside the whole way to Athenry. Then on to limerick stopping in a few villages. The only decent population centre directly served by the new addition is Gort. Even if the whole population of the town used the service every week it would still make a poor business case. Ballybrit, Parkmore, Mervue and the University will not be effectively served by this new service. The end result is a train service that the have to drive to access and get a bus from to reach their intended destination. And Galway is one of the larger population centres in the country. It's like planes, trains and automobiles, a bad comedy.

Covey wrote: »

The Westport line is mentioned above (negatively), yet, I'm sure a morning and evening service from Ballyhaunis - Westport would be full. Why can't start and end points not be more fexible.

The one thing that rail isn't is flexible. The cost is too great to have rolling stock lying idle outside of peak services or off season, and it is too rigid to service the few pockets of dense population that there are.

Covey wrote: »

As someone who has lived in rural Germany, their rural services don't pay for themselves either, nor do most countries in Europe. So lets not play the cost card only and look how we can improve things for everyone.

While the rural services don't pay for themselves you'll probably find that the larger intercity services counter this. In Ireland the balance wouldn't be there. So there would be huge subsidy required.

I agree with Schuhart bus is the way to go. But the focus needs to be on greater quality.
Dedicated bus lanes
better integration of intercity and local services
bus shelters.

Musterforever I think you are confusing population density with any population. A train station will serve at best a one to two mile radius anything after that and people will have to drive to get to it. If green is the agenda then cars need to be removed from the picture completely.

Demakinz regarding your point on train enfield vs bus from Edenderry, the suburban rail network is being pushed to far out of Dublin. It is insanity that places like Edenderry have become commuter towns for Dublin. Enfield is on that existing commuter route so it can benefit from overall service. Rather than extending the further off the existing network further out (and frankly enfield is even pushing the limits) higher density development should have gone along line closer to Dublin. Blanchardstown SC or Liffey valley should have been built along the route. When I used to get the train from Dublin to Mullingar it was standing room only as Connolly and the train would be more than half empty by the time it got to Mullingar. More frequent, and fuller train services on shorter routes around Dublin would be far better for the environment.

Victor

Munsterforever wrote: »

There is no train between Sligo and Galway either, even though it would carry the same amount of passengers that go to Dublin

This exaggeration is so extreme as to qualify as a lie.

Passenger demand is essentially proportional to population at either end and inversly proportional to the square of distance.

Point to consider, if the internal combustion engine had been invented at the start of the 19th century rather than near the end.. there would have been no railways at all.

The road networks in Europe were neglected throughout the Victorian era as everone everywhere invested in rail networks, at least Ireland didn't suffer from the madness that parts of southern England where rival rail companies built "scenic" routes to prevent another company building a rail link between towns.

rekrow

Deleted User wrote: »

Point to consider, if the internal combustion engine had been invented at the start of the 19th century rather than near the end.. there would have been no railways at all.

The road networks in Europe were neglected throughout the Victorian era as everone everywhere invested in rail networks, at least Ireland didn't suffer from the madness that parts of southern England where rival rail companies built "scenic" routes to prevent another company building a rail link between towns.

I think the timing of any invention plays a part on it's impact on predessors. Would the earlier invention of the CD impacted record sales? I'd say definitely. The drive will always be for better and cheaper. When cars became more affordable they were always going to undermine trains that didn't match the time did offer the same freedom. Trains can only compete against cars over short distances where they offer some sort of advantage. That's why conjestion charges are being brought in.

the_syco

rekrow wrote: »

Blanchardstown SC or Liffey valley should have been built along the route. When I used to get the train from Dublin to Mullingar it was standing room only as Connolly and the train would be more than half empty by the time it got to Mullingar. More frequent, and fuller train services on shorter routes around Dublin would be far better for the environment.

There is a train that goes from Dublin to Maynooth, and then continues on to Longford, if memory servers me correctly. The location of Liffey Valley was one of brown paper envelopes, I think.

If Blachardstown SC was built where Elmgreen golf course is now, it would have been served by the N3, M50, as well by the railway. That would have been an epic location, but it wasn't so.

markpb

the_syco wrote: »

If Blachardstown SC was built where Elmgreen golf course is now, it would have been served by the N3, M50, as well by the railway. That would have been an epic location, but it wasn't so.

Blanch is only a 20 minute walk from Coolmine. It's not convenient if you're carrying shopping but it's not the end of the world. It's still fine for the cinema, local authority offices, theatre, leisureplex, etc.

Munsterforever

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many free seats were on the bus you were on?

None.