The EU: People in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones

oNemesis

they are a bunch of hypocrites and elitists that no one elected....

and Ireland told them to stuff it



http://www.moscowtopnews.com/?area=postView&id=539#cut

Lemming

The linked article is a rhetorical, jingoistic opinion piece, not journalism.

So, in your glee to have a go at the "EU" (which ironically includes us), remember this: the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend either.

oNemesis

Lemming wrote: »

The linked article is a rhetorical, jingoistic opinion piece, not journalism.

So, in your glee to have a go at the "EU" (which ironically includes us), remember this: the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend either.

Then I take it you are a fan of the EU...with their wasteful, corrupt practices?

such as specifiying exact measurements for fruit for example?

K-9

oNemesis wrote: »

such as specifiying exact measurements for fruit for example?

That's comparing apples and oranges!

Lemming

oNemesis wrote: »

Then I take it you are a fan of the EU...with their wasteful, corrupt practices?

such as specifiying exact measurements for fruit for example?

You said all of the above, not me. I am not a cheer-leader, but I recognise jingoistic tripe when I see it. And that "article" is a lame and very transparent attempt at "Look over there, somebody's good-looking sister ... " to quote a line from the Simpsons.

turgon

oNemesis wrote: »

they are a bunch of hypocrites and elitists that no one elected....

The OP need a 101 course in identifying bias.

And Ireland didnt tell anyone to "stuff it", despite what you would like to think.

oNemesis wrote: »

Then I take it you are a fan of the EU...with their wasteful, corrupt practices?

And whats the alternative to be governed from Europe?? Being governed fully by the Irish, and Cowen is just shining example of how good that has worked out.

oNemesis

turgon wrote: »

The OP need a 101 course in identifying bias.

And Ireland didnt tell anyone to "stuff it", despite what you would like to think.

And whats the alternative to be governed from Europe?? Being governed fully by the Irish, and Cowen is just shining example of how good that has worked out.

Oh, I see...when did it happen that the EU forced Ireland to change their vote on the Lisbon Treaty?

EU gives Ireland an ultimatum – find a solution to treaty 'no' vote

By Andrew Grice in Brussels

Friday, 20 June 2008

European Union leaders last night gave Ireland just four months to produce a way out of the crisis over the Lisbon Treaty caused by its rejection by the Irish people in last week's referendum.

Although EU leaders denied the charge of "bullying" the Irish government, they set an October deadline for it to explain how it could win public support for the ill-fated treaty designed to streamline the EU's decision-making process.

Over dinner at a two-day summit in Brussels, the other 26 EU members agreed not to "shame" Ireland despite their private dismay that the "yes" campaign had managed to lose last week's referendum.

The treaty cannot be implemented until it has been ratified by all member states. However, the dinner broke up late last night without agreement on the wording of a statement on a way out of the crisis. The stumbling block was the Czech Republic, which has suspended its plans to ratify the treaty. EU leaders will make another attempt to agree a form of words when the summit resumes today...

Ireland's "no" vote forced a summit due to address "real world" issues of soaring oil and food prices to again look inwards at how the EU works. Although the treaty is in limbo, the EU leaders refused to kill it off. "It's the only show in town – we are not going to get a better one," said one European Commission source.


[...]




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-gives-ireland--an-ultimatum-ndash-find-a-solution-to-treaty-no-vote-851038.html

oNemesis

turgon wrote: »

The OP need a 101 course in identifying bias.

And Ireland didnt tell anyone to "stuff it", despite what you would like to think.



And whats the alternative to be governed from Europe?? Being governed fully by the Irish, and Cowen is just shining example of how good that has worked out.

Aye yes, the heavens forbid Ireland be governed by Irish, or Italy by Italians or Portugal by Portuguese, etc.

djpbarry

oNemesis wrote: »

Oh, I see...when did it happen that the EU forced Ireland to change their vote on the Lisbon Treaty?

Never?

djpbarry

oNemesis wrote: »

Aye yes, the heavens forbid Ireland be governed by Irish, or Italy by Italians or Portugal by Portuguese, etc.

I'm pretty sure that they are.

Lemming

oNemesis wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-gives-ireland--an-ultimatum-ndash-find-a-solution-to-treaty-no-vote-851038.html

Article dated Friday, 20 June 2008

Wow, aren't you behind the times?

K-9

oNemesis wrote: »

EU gives Ireland an ultimatum – find a solution to treaty 'no' vote

That's what happens when a country votes No. People ask why?

That has always been the case, even with the Constitution.

oNemesis

Lemming wrote: »

Article dated Friday, 20 June 2008

Wow, aren't you behind the times?

Proving a point....vote has not changed to my knowledge so the point is made.

Now if the vote had been forced to a change then I might be behind the times.

Lemming

oNemesis wrote: »

Proving a point....vote has not changed to my knowledge so the point is made.

Now if the vote had been forced to a change then I might be behind the times.

You havent' proved a bloody thing other than that you are incapable of distinguishing between brutally biased tripe and journalism, and that you are incapable of forming a coherent stance with relevant arguments. Linking to a blatantly nationalistic russian opinion piece as if its absolute fact is a rather foolish and unfortunate foundation on which to build ones argument(s).

Further to that last part, you shouldn't need to go looking at Russia to point out hypocrisy and waste within the EU if you are able to form a coherent stance with relevant arguments.

ejmaztec

I don't know why the OP considers that there is any merit in a Russian newspaper article, bearing in mind that pro-western, anti-establishment journalists end up dead in the street.

oNemesis

Lemming wrote: »

You havent' proved a bloody thing other than that you are incapable of distinguishing between brutally biased tripe and journalism, and that you are incapable of forming a coherent stance with relevant arguments. Linking to a blatantly nationalistic russian opinion piece as if its absolute fact is a rather foolish and unfortunate foundation on which to build ones argument(s).

Further to that last part, you shouldn't need to go looking at Russia to point out hypocrisy and waste within the EU if you are able to form a coherent stance with relevant arguments.

Wow, is everyone as welcoming and friendly as you are here?

Point: Ireland told EU to go stuff it

Counterpoint: No they didn't

Point: Proof that they did

I rather think you haven't proven your contention about the source.

I also showed that the EU is trying circumvent people's vote. What have you shown? Nothing. Just ad hominems about "the source the source the source" typical when someone is empty handed.

and that second source was UK

Lemming

oNemesis wrote: »

Wow, is everyone as welcoming and friendly as you are here?

Actually they're probably worse. You are in for an incredibly bumpy ride. Welcome to the politics forum.

oNemesis wrote: »

Point: Ireland told EU to go stuff it

Counterpoint: No they didn't

And no we didn't. We're still in the EU.

oNemesis wrote: »

Point: Proof that they did

See the above.

oNemesis wrote: »

I rather think you haven't proven your contention about the source.

Ummm, I don't because it's an opinion piece, not unbiased reporting. That much is blatantly obvious and not even hidden. How many times does this little nugget of fundamentally important fact need to be pointed out to you?

oNemesis wrote: »

I also showed that the EU is trying circumvent people's vote. What have you shown? Nothing. Just ad hominems about "the source the source the source" typical when someone is empty handed.

You've shown nothing other than conjecture and hysterical hearsay in this thread. The burden of proof lies with you since you are the one making the accusations, and you are coming up far, farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr short on that particular point.

Scofflaw

Keep it calm, people. OP, if your method of 'debate' is simply to claim repeatedly that you're right, the thread will be closed, because at the moment it's generating lots of heat and no light. If you want to substantiate the claims in the article, go right ahead - if not, you're making a thread out of your uncritical agreement with a news article, which is not acceptable.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hitman Actual

oNemesis wrote: »

http://www.moscowtopnews.com/?area=postView&id=539#cut

This is undoubtedly the most amusing article I've ever seen used to back up an argument, it being shared with some other top Moscow news such as "Katie Price Busts Out", and "Marussia- Russia's brand new supercar". Worst Source Ever.

oNemesis

Alright, I'll bite since so far it's been nothing but "the source the source the source" ignoring my other source provided.

How is Ireland's voting NO to the Lisbon Treaty saying something positive about the EU and its workings?

oNemesis

Having succumb to the lure of US capitalism in Ronald Regan's time, lived through the scourge of savage capitalism during Clinton's, joined in colour-coded revolutions in Bush's time, they now find the current American president is too busy with his own crisis to listen to their pleadings.

Back in the early 1990s everyone thought that Cuba would follow the domino collapse of eastern-bloc communism. Some still can't understand why it didn't.

Any clearer now? - SMcG

---

Austria pleads with Europe for bail-out of east
LEIGH PHILLIPS

11.02.2009 @ 09:31 CET http://euobserver.com/9/27588/?rk=1

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Austria, home to banks with massive exposure in eastern Europe, is calling on the EU to offer some €150 billion in a bail-out package for the east and warning of a banking "collapse" across the region that could snuff out the Alpine nation's banking system.

European banks have a financial engagement of some €1.1 trillion in the region, but Vienna's financial institutions are particularly exposed, being owed €220 billion - equivalent to around three quarters of the country's GDP - that they fear may not be able to be paid back. Italy, Sweden, the Netherlands, France and Belgium are also among western Europe's big lenders to the east.

Vienna is worried that the plug on eastern Europe is about to be pulled (Photo: Wikipedia/Thomas Binderhofer)

To prevent the plug being pulled on the Austrian economy - until now fairly lightly hit by the economic crisis compared to other western states - Vienna wants the EU to raise the currently pledged €25 billion balance of payments assistance to central and eastern Europe to €100 billion.

Austria is also calling for an additional €50 billion in balance of payments assistance to be offered to countries beyond the EU - the so-called European Neighbourhood countries - in the Balkans and further east, notably Ukraine.

The monies would come from the European Investment Bank, the European Central Bank and the EU Cohesion Fund.

Such a move would aid the eastern countries to establish their own bank bail-out packages and economic recovery plans, most of which, whether in the EU or not, until now have not been able to afford them. Of the €200 billion recovery package Brussels announced in November, most of the money, coming from national coffers, remains in the west.

The presidents of the Austrian and Polish chambers of commerce were in Brussels on Tuesday (10 February) to promote a similar plan based on proposals from the IMF and the Austrian central bank. Although the precise details of what Vienna would like to see have yet to be published, the Austrian chamber, close to the governing coalition, says the plans are "not distinct", and have been echoed by a call by the IMF for an equal amount of EU cash to be offered to the east.

Austria opened discussion of the regional bail-out at Tuesday's meeting of European finance ministers in Brussels, but the response was lukewarm from other EU member states, according to Reinhold Lopatka, secretary of state for finance.

Last week, the Austrian chancellor and finance minister toured EU capitals in an unsuccessful attempt to drum up support. The finance minister is also to head to Croatia, Ukraine, Bulgaria and Romania on Wednesday to "forge an alliance in support of the package," said a figure close to the government.

Germany in particular, believing it will be stuck with the bill, is stiffly opposed, despite heavy eastern exposure itself.

"We do not want to get lost in any future rescue measures," said German finance minister Peer Steinbrueck speaking to reporters after the Brussels meeting. "Austrian banks are over-proportionally engaged in the east," he continued.

"It's a legitimate national interest," he concluded, meaning not an issue of wider concern.

Mr Lopatka hit back, saying that the problem had broader implications than losses for domestic banks. "Austria may well be more [extended] than others, but it is more of an EU question."

Without a regional bail-out, he warned, "eastern Europe will start to collapse."

Orgy of lending

The economic crisis has hit both new EU member states in the east and countries beyond the bloc sandwiched between the EU and Russia much harder than it has hit most western member states.

High growth rates fuelled by cheap and easy foreign credit have been replaced by a sharp decline in demand for exports, a decrease in investment and the near impossibility of accessing finance and loans for businesses.

Meanwhile, devaluation threatens businesses that have borrowed heavily in foreign currency. Unemployment is soaring and civil unrest, particularly by farmers and young people, has hit a number of capitals.

Latvia's economy contracted 10.5 percent in the last quarter of 2008, according to figures released on Monday, while analysts fear Ukraine is on the verge of bankruptcy. Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania have also been badly hit.

In recent years, western European banks went on an orgy of lending and buying up the local financial sector. As early as 1 December, a group of six western banks - Italy's UniCredit and Intesa, Austria's Erste and Raiffeisen, Belgium's KBC and France's Societe Generale - sent a letter to the European Commission requesting a regional financial aid package for the east, according to a Bloomberg report published last week.

Separately, the Institute of International Finance, the global association of financial institutions, is to lobby governments for the package ahead of April's G20 summit in London.

'One European family'

Warning of dangers to the European economy and "social stability", Christoph Leitl, president of the Austrian chamber of commerce, told reporters it was not simply about saving Austrian banks.

"We are one European family. The central and eastern European nations are the weaker children of that family," he said, "but we must take care of the weaker child. It is our common responsibility."

He also cautioned that if Brussels did not act in the east, Moscow would.

"Russia is helping in a very efficient way to pick these countries up and take them back into closer connection. There is a competition between the EU and Russia over which family the east belongs to."

Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko said on Monday that the country had approached Moscow requesting a €3.8 billion ($5bn) emergency loan.

According to Heinz Kogler, EU co-ordinator of the Austrian chamber of commerce, Germany's blocking of the bail-out "is actually quite consistent with what they have been saying since the beginning of the crisis. They have always opposed any pan-European initiatives."

"They want nothing more than efforts at the national level because they worry they will have to pay for such EU-level schemes."

He said the Austrian government had acted on the matter as a result of the galloping escalation of the crisis in the last couple of weeks and that if the EU did not move soon, "There will be a complete collapse of the region, taking Austria with it."

###

Hitman Actual

oNemesis wrote: »

Alright, I'll bite since so far it's been nothing but "the source the source the source" ignoring my other source provided.

Your source had no credibility whatsoever; it was just a Russian propaganda piece on EU involvement in the Baltic Regions, and not even a remotely convincing one at that. Here you can get an idea of how the EU works to bring stability there, and the €billions in aid that have been pumped into the regions.

oNemesis wrote: »

How is Ireland's voting NO to the Lisbon Treaty saying something positive about the EU and its workings?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Hitman Actual

oNemesis wrote: »

Having succumb to the lure of US capitalism in Ronald Regan's time, lived through the scourge of savage capitalism during Clinton's, joined in colour-coded revolutions in Bush's time, they now find the current American president is too busy with his own crisis to listen to their pleadings.

Back in the early 1990s everyone thought that Cuba would follow the domino collapse of eastern-bloc communism. Some still can't understand why it didn't.

Any clearer now? - SMcG

I'm no clearer anyway, but maybe I'm a bit slower than the other guys around here. What in God's name are you taking about?

Also, how does that EUObserver article fit in with your original argument?

Edit to add: If this is just the usual conspiracy theory rhetoric, I'm done with the thread.

Scofflaw

Right, this isn't going anywhere. OP, if you have a point to make, I suggest you sit down and work out how to articulate it before posting a thread.

terminally,
Scofflaw