Why saturated fat is bad for you

cozmik

From the BBC

Ahmed Al Haj is only 48 and looks healthy on the outside, yet this Bangladeshi waiter has ended up on the operating table for a triple heart bypass.

As a Muslim, Ahmed does not smoke or drink, but his diet has been rich in ghee, the clarified butter in which many south Asian dishes are drenched.

Instead of a healthy pink muscle, his heart looks like a pulsating lump of lard after a lifetime of eating too much saturated fat.

The layer of fat encasing Mr Haj's heart was so thick the surgeons doing his triple bypass could not see his coronary arteries.

Surgeon Shyam Kolvekar from The Heart Hospital at University College London, who performed Mr Haj's triple bypass, said cases like this were increasingly common and highlighted the dangers of eating too much saturated fat.

"There are plenty of healthy looking people walking around who do not know they have heart disease.

"This patient looked healthy on the outside, but when we opened him up his heart was covered with fat. It looked like a piece of lard pumping.

"When there is that much fat it makes the bypass harder to do."

Mr Haj, from London, recovered well from his operation and was discharged home after five days.

Mr Kolvekar said when he became a consultant cardiac surgeon eight years ago the bulk of bypass operations he did were on older people.

Now he is seeing people in their 40s and 50s needing triple bypasses.

He said: "People need to think about what they are eating. It is not just calorie intake that is important. Fat is also a worry."

The footage, taken at The Heart Hospital a few weeks ago, has been released with Mr Haj's permission to highlight the hidden danger done by fried snacks, pastries and buttery foods.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7605999.stm

Serafijn

:eek:

rubadub

There are a lot of recent pages saying it is not as bad as once made out. And that only 1 flawed study has shown correlation between sat fat & heart disease.

It is like they are inferring that the hard fat that you put in your stomach passes right out of your stomach and that exact same fat is clogging up your heart. This is similar to how some people think this same fat you eat is directly transferred to your stomach. I remember 2 of my mates drinking coors light saying it was great since it had "no fat", they were under the impression this meant it could not make you fat, they were also shocked when I told them no beer had fat in it. They were trying to make me look ignorant saying "aha! then why does guinness give you a beer belly", themselves completely ignorant of calorie intake and how fat is created.

Nearly all will say that trans fat is the real bad one.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184409,00.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2002/08/17/saturated-fat1.aspx

Also some saturated fats might be better than others, e.g. coconut oil
http://www.ecopolitan.com/health-resources/ask-dr-t/96-coconut-oil-saturated-fat-myth

Edwardius

That's also neglecting the fact that most of the damn stuff (coconut oil, butter lard etc etc) IS LIQUID AT BODY TEMPERATURE!. so even if sat fat did get transported around the body in its original (non-soluble) form how the blazes would it solidify well above its melting point? Arterial plaques are not made of sat fat, the chain of synthesis for what arterial plaques are made of does not include saturated fat.

The substance of that article is as follows: doctor talks about some dude from London with bad heart. What else does he eat? Does he smoke? does he drink? does he exercise? What (possibly most importantly) is his stress level like?

So here's another copy and paste article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3230846/Healthy-food-Should-we-be-eating-more-fat.html

Khannie

rubadub wrote: »

They were trying to make me look ignorant saying "aha! then why does guinness give you a beer belly", themselves completely ignorant of calorie intake and how fat is created.

I lol'd.

cozmik

Dead Ed wrote: »

Does he smoke? does he drink?

Try reading the article more carefully.

Edwardius

cozmik wrote: »

Try reading the article more carefully.

Oops, First few lines... D'oh. :rolleyes:

Still though, there's a distinct lack of info regarding the rest of his diet/lifestyle, it's a sample group of one, it does not say anything about "Why saturated fat is bad for you". It's more along the lines of "why arterial plaques are bad for you..."

jam_mac_jam

This is one person, that's a bit like saying oh my grandad smoked untill he was 90 and never got cancer.

I dont doubt it is bad for you as I have been told saturated fat is bad for years but lately I find it all very confusing and now no longer know what to believe but one person does not prove the rule.

cozmik

rubadub wrote: »

There are a lot of recent pages saying it is not as bad as once made out.

Don't believe everything you read on the interwebz.


The message from the real world is

Saturated fat clogs the arteries

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7878680.stm

EileenG

And I suppose he never ate anything except ghee. No rice, no flour, no pastry, no sugar....

Any kind of fat and refined carbs is a really bad mix. Saturated fat without the carbs is a totally different thing. After eight years of eating a diet very high in sat fats, I've got a perfect cholesterol profile.

Edwardius

cozmik wrote: »

Saturated fat clogs the arteries

So it falls out of solution and solidifies in the arteries? Now if anything like that were the case, then why would there be any need for a bypass? Wouldn't there be a uniform coating of "fat" on the artery walls over their entire extent, thereby making the process futile....? So if that argument were to be examined and people look at what actually happens (neglecting for a moment the actual cause) in the case of heart disease, i.e. the formation of discrete arterial plaques and hardening of the arteries, then that assumption makes no sense.

Why would this stuff form in discrete locations and not all along the length of the blood vessel? The fatty deposits contain connective tissue, fatty acids, cholesterol, macrophages, white blood cells and platelets and are deposited as an inflammatory response to some stimulus (Some folks reckon its oxidised LDL particles and the like, stress, high blood sugar etc). Also, sat fat is not transported in the blood.... fat is transported through the blood by means of triglycerides contained in lipoprotein molecules, so not only does saturated fat not "clog arteries" it's not even present in any form in the blood. That's like saying I threw snowballs at you in the desert.

jam_mac_jam

EileenG wrote: »

And I suppose he never ate anything except ghee. No rice, no flour, no pastry, no sugar....

Any kind of fat and refined carbs is a really bad mix. Saturated fat without the carbs is a totally different thing. After eight years of eating a diet very high in sat fats, I've got a perfect cholesterol profile.

That's a good point.

cozmik

EileenG wrote: »

Any kind of fat and refined carbs is a really bad mix. Saturated fat without the carbs is a totally different thing.

That's not what the American Heart Association say.

Saturated fat is the main dietary cause of high blood cholesterol.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=532

cozmik

...

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

That's a good point.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

one person does not prove the rule.

Edwardius

1. Errr... There is no "cholesterol level" in the blood. HDL and LDL are not cholesterol

2. The american heart association website... sponsored by... http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=1521

3. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=228 on artherosclerosis, from the same website...

"

Atherosclerosis is a type of arteriosclerosis. The name comes from the Greek words athero (meaning gruel or paste) and sclerosis (hardness). It's the term for the process of fatty substances, cholesterol, cellular waste products, calcium and fibrin (a clotting material in the blood) building up in the inner lining of an artery. The buildup that results is called plaque.

Arteriosclerosis is a general term for the thickening and hardening of arteries. Some hardening of arteries normally occurs when people grow older.

Plaque may partially or totally block the blood's flow through an artery. Two things that can happen where plaque occurs are:

* There may be bleeding (hemorrhage) into the plaque.
* A blood clot (thrombus) may form on the plaque's surface.

If either of these occurs and blocks the whole artery, a heart attack or stroke may result.

Atherosclerosis affects large and medium-sized arteries. The type of artery and where the plaque develops varies with each person.

Atherosclerosis is a slow, progressive disease that may start in childhood. In some people this disease progresses rapidly in their third decade. In others it doesn't become threatening until they're in their 50s or 60s.

How does atherosclerosis start?

It's a complex process. Exactly how atherosclerosis begins or what causes it isn't known, but some theories have been proposed. Many scientists think atherosclerosis starts because the innermost layer of the artery becomes damaged. This layer is called the endothelium. Three possible causes of damage to the arterial wall are:

* Elevated levels of cholesterol and triglyceride in the blood
* High blood pressure
* Cigarette smoke

Cigarette smoke greatly aggravates and speeds up the growth of atherosclerosis in the coronary arteries, the aorta and the arteries of the legs.

Because of the damage, over time fats, cholesterol, platelets, cellular debris and calcium are deposited in the artery wall. These substances may stimulate the cells of the artery wall to produce still other substances. This results in more cells accumulating in the innermost layer of the artery wall where the atherosclerotic lesions form. These cells accumulate, and many of them divide. At the same time, fat builds up within and around these cells. They also form connective tissue.

The innermost layer of the artery becomes markedly thickened by these accumulating cells and surrounding material. If the wall is thickened sufficiently, the diameter of the artery will be reduced and less blood will flow, thus decreasing the oxygen supply.

Often a blood clot forms and blocks the artery, stopping the flow of blood. If the oxygen supply to the heart muscle is reduced, a heart attack can occur. If the oxygen supply to the brain is cut off, a stroke can occur. And if the oxygen supply to the extremities occurs, gangrene can result."

Ok, so there's a fatty buildup. "It's a complex process. Exactly how atherosclerosis begins or what causes it isn't known, but some theories have been proposed. Many scientists think atherosclerosis starts because the innermost layer of the artery becomes damaged."
Hmmm, I thought it was "saturated fat and cholesterol" that caused it. Sure everybody knows that.

mloc

It's too much of a generalisation. It's like saying water is bad for you, because you can drown in it.

Saturated fats, particularly for men, are an essential part of the diet, in amounts greater than most people would think. The important thing is the balance between fat types, and maintaining a healthy cholesterol profile (as opposed to just low total cholesterol).

The real enemy are constant carb spikes and trans fats.

cozmik

mloc wrote: »

The real enemy are constant carb spikes and trans fats.

Intake of saturated fat should also be as low as possible.

the heart's greatest enemy -- saturated fat -- which is "the most important dietary culprit in raising serum cholesterol," according to lipid researcher Henry N. Ginsberg, a professor of medicine at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1585/is_n10_v20/ai_17369952

mloc

Saturated fat should not be as low as possible as much as balanced against intake of monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats. The fatty acid profile of the saturated fats is also important, with some fatty acids having different physiological effects than others.

Some referenced examples here: http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2006/03/27/the_benefits_of_saturated_fats.htm

rubadub

cozmik wrote: »

Don't believe everything you read on the interwebz.

The message from the real world is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7878680.stm

You gave an internet link, is the internet the "real world"

Saturated fat clogs the arteries

Is this saying saturated fat clogs arteries, or eating saturated fat clogs arteries. 2 different things, as I was trying to get across before.

It shows a sink getting clogged with fat and asks viewers to imagine what the fat they consume is doing to their own pipes.

The fat I eat goes down my throat and out the other end. This is what I was saying before, it is like they are inferring the exact same fat you eat is travelling through your heart as though it is part of the digestive system, and getting clogged up on the way while all the meat and other stuff passes through my heart grand!

A similar misconception was applied to alzheimers, they found traces of aluminium in sufferers brains, and concluded cooking in aluminium pots could cause alzheimers.

Many organizations and studies have great vested interests too, like the US food pyramid, which is now pretty much accepted as overemphasising the need for grains

cozmik

mloc wrote: »

Saturated fat should not be as low as possible as much as balanced against intake of monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats.

I think you're splitting hairs here.

Compak

Here is a little extract of my own work so ye know its good:). All referenced but I dont include them. bit long and bit scientific.
:rolleyes:

Atherosclerosis is the leading cause of death in the western world. Serum cholesterol is a strong independent risk factor with ldl its main constituent showing the strongest correlation.
Apolipoprotein B100 containing ldl and vldl transfer lipids into the artery wall. These particles are oxidised and taken up by scavenger receptors of macrophages. This allows large amounts of lipoprotein to be taken up, forming foam cells. The macrophages then induce an anti-inflammatory response resulting in atherosclerosis plaque.
The role of cholesterol in atherosclerosis was first proposed form animal studies in the 1900s. Keys seven country study (1966) was pivotal in proposing relationship between serum cholesterol and fatal heart attacks. Finland had an average serum cholesterol of 260mg/dl (6.7mmol/l) and fatal heart attack rate of ~7% over ten years. Japan’s mean serum cholesterol was 160mg/dl with a fatal heart attack rate of <0.5%.
However the association between cholesterol and heart disease was controversial and not accepted formally by the medical community until 1984.
It was then recommended to use dietary intervention when a cholesterol level was too high, focusing on restricting calorie, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol intake.iv


Recommendations are that saturated fat is less than 10% of dietary energy intake.
Saturated fat is linked to raising cholesterol, an important risk factor for coronary heart disease and raised insulin levels. High insulin is also implicated in heart disease and the development of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
Saturated fatty acids are not to be treated equal with properties depending on their carbon chain length. Only lauric(C12), myristic(C14) and Palmitc(C16) acids raise levels, myristic being the most potent.
The insulin rising effects only started to be seen at C8 reaching maximum potency at C12.
Medium chain saturated fatty acids, however, have important physiological functions. Palmitic and myristic acid are involved in posttranslational modification of proteins (N-palmitoylation and S-myristylation).
Palmitoylation is used in the trafficking of protein between membrane compartments and modulates protein, protein interactions.
Myristylation of IGF-1 induces apoptosis and inhibits tumorogenesis in mice studies. An in vitro study showed myristylation of FUS 1, a tumour suppressor, preventing lung cancer.
Lauric acid is converted into monolaurin in the body and has strong antimicrobial and antiviral effects.
Stearic acid is a common long chain saturated fatty acid found in our diet in dairy meats and grains. Its C18 chain does not affect insulin and has been shown to lower cholesterol levels. It is a healthy substitute in products that require a solid fat presence.

Edwardius

Compak wrote: »

Here is a little extract of my own work so ye know its good:). All referenced but I dont include them. bit long and bit scientific.
:rolleyes:

Atherosclerosis is the leading cause of death in the western world. Serum cholesterol is a strong independent risk factor with ldl its main constituent showing the strongest correlation.
Apolipoprotein B100 containing ldl and vldl transfer lipids into the artery wall. These particles are oxidised and taken up by scavenger receptors of macrophages. This allows large amounts of lipoprotein to be taken up, forming foam cells. The macrophages then induce an anti-inflammatory response resulting in atherosclerosis plaque.
The role of cholesterol in atherosclerosis was first proposed form animal studies in the 1900s. Keys seven country study (1966) was pivotal in proposing relationship between serum cholesterol and fatal heart attacks. Finland had an average serum cholesterol of 260mg/dl (6.7mmol/l) and fatal heart attack rate of ~7% over ten years. Japan’s mean serum cholesterol was 160mg/dl with a fatal heart attack rate of <0.5%.
However the association between cholesterol and heart disease was controversial and not accepted formally by the medical community until 1984.
It was then recommended to use dietary intervention when a cholesterol level was too high, focusing on restricting calorie, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol intake.iv


Recommendations are that saturated fat is less than 10% of dietary energy intake.
Saturated fat is linked to raising cholesterol, an important risk factor for coronary heart disease and raised insulin levels. High insulin is also implicated in heart disease and the development of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
Saturated fatty acids are not to be treated equal with properties depending on their carbon chain length. Only lauric(C12), myristic(C14) and Palmitc(C16) acids raise levels, myristic being the most potent.
The insulin rising effects only started to be seen at C8 reaching maximum potency at C12.
Medium chain saturated fatty acids, however, have important physiological functions. Palmitic and myristic acid are involved in posttranslational modification of proteins (N-palmitoylation and S-myristylation).
Palmitoylation is used in the trafficking of protein between membrane compartments and modulates protein, protein interactions.
Myristylation of IGF-1 induces apoptosis and inhibits tumorogenesis in mice studies. An in vitro study showed myristylation of FUS 1, a tumour suppressor, preventing lung cancer.
Lauric acid is converted into monolaurin in the body and has strong antimicrobial and antiviral effects.
Stearic acid is a common long chain saturated fatty acid found in our diet in dairy meats and grains. Its C18 chain does not affect insulin and has been shown to lower cholesterol levels. It is a healthy substitute in products that require a solid fat presence.

Cheers for posting this.

Was there anything about the LDL particle size in the first part?

"The insulin rising effects only started to be seen at C8 reaching maximum potency at C12"

I'm interested in this bit. Could you pm me the link or book where that's from. What foods would you find C8 chain FAs in? Just curious

One thing about Key's study. There were more than 7 countries involved initially. I'll see if I can get my hands on it in work tomorrow...

mloc

cozmik wrote: »

I think you're splitting hairs here.

Not really. Ideally, a higher proportion of our calories should come from a wide spectrum of fat. Taking a small proportion of omega-3 fats with saturated fats has mutually beneficial effects. In many ways its not nutrients on their own, but together, that have positive effects.

Compak

Dead Ed wrote: »

Cheers for posting this.

Was there anything about the LDL particle size in the first part?

"The insulin rising effects only started to be seen at C8 reaching maximum potency at C12"

I'm interested in this bit. Could you pm me the link or book where that's from. What foods would you find C8 chain FAs in? Just curious

One thing about Key's study. There were more than 7 countries involved initially. I'll see if I can get my hands on it in work tomorrow...

I have info elsewhere on ldl particles but not accessible from computer.
basically small ldl particles are not what you want and a more accurate risk test for ldl for most would be to actually do an ldl particle count instead of a concentration

The reference I used is a the most recent book by the british nutrition foundation "Cardiovascular Disease"

You would probably find better detail pub medding it.

C8 is octanoic/caprylic acid found in large concentrations in coconut oil. Has strong antifungal and some antibacterial properties and is sold as a supplement.

Im not sure on Keys original work but the 66 publication i used was on 7 countries
"Epidemiological studies related to coronary heart disease: characteristics of men aged 40-59 in seven countries."

Im sure you are right though
However

jam_mac_jam

cozmik wrote: »

...

I meant the part about no mention of the other foods that the man eats. I would imagine there would be a large amounts of carbs there also.

cozmik

mloc wrote: »

Not really. Ideally, a higher proportion of our calories should come from a wide spectrum of fat. Taking a small proportion of omega-3 fats with saturated fats has mutually beneficial effects. In many ways its not nutrients on their own, but together, that have positive effects.

You're talking about the balance between fats which I agree is important but the trouble is most people far exceed what is needed from the saturated fat side.So when I say saturated fat should be as low as possible I'm talking about just what is required to achieve the balance.

mloc

I'd personally see it as instead of people having to lower their saturates, they need to lower their carbs and replace those calories with non-saturate fats.

cozmik

mloc wrote: »

I'd personally see it as instead of people having to lower their saturates, they need to lower their carbs and replace those calories with non-saturate fats.

Probably the best source of evidence based scientific reviews suggests otherwise.

replacing some saturated (animal) fats by plant oils and unsaturated spreads may reduce risk of heart disease.

Reduction or modification of dietary fat can improve total cholesterol levels

Lifestyle advice to all those at high risk of cardiovascular disease (especially where statins are unavailable or rationed), and to lower risk population groups, should continue to include permanent reduction of dietary saturated fat and partial replacement by unsaturates.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab002137.html

Compak

People need to realise an atkins type diet has been very successful in reducing cholesterol no matter how much it perplexes the scientific community. At the same time gen saturated fats esp from dairy are potent cholesterol sythesis stimulatord

Genetic phenotype testing is the only way any of ye will actually know how susceptible ye are to dietary influences

mloc

Compak wrote: »

Genetic phenotype testing is the only way any of ye will actually know how susceptible ye are to dietary influences

Related to my area of research, interestingly.

Compak

mloc wrote: »

Related to my area of research, interestingly.

So us boardsies can get tested free for science:D

Edwardius

Compak wrote: »

"Epidemiological studies related to coronary heart disease: characteristics of men aged 40-59 in seven countries."

Im sure you are right though
However

Apparently he had data from 22 countries, picked 7 that gave the best fit and published it as "the seven countries study".

"To bolster his theory, Dr. Keys in 1953 compared diets and heart disease rates in the United States, Japan and four other countries. Sure enough, more fat correlated with more disease (America topped the list). But critics at the time noted that if Dr. Keys had analyzed all 22 countries for which data were available, he would not have found a correlation"

Oddly enough, this makes six!

From the same article:

The evidence that dietary fat correlates with heart disease “does not stand up to critical examination,” the American Heart Association concluded in 1957. But three years later the association changed position — not because of new data, Mr. Taubes writes, but because Dr. Keys and an ally were on the committee issuing the new report.

both from:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?_r=1&ex=1349668800&en=67642ef2330

"For example, Finland had a rate of heart disease that was 24 times that of Mexico yet they both had the same amount of fat intake." (not from above article)

"The other salient criticism of Keys's study was that he had observed only a correlation between two phenomena, not a clear causative link. So this left open the possibility that something else — unmeasured or unimagined — was leading to heart disease. After all, Americans did eat more fat than the Japanese, but perhaps they also consumed more sugar and white bread, and watched more television."

I'll try to find out how these guys came to know this though. It seems to pop up in several places on the internet but the source is hard to come by. If that were true I'd imagine Keys kept his lab books well hidden! I can't find the full text of Keys' article online either, I may have to raid the library or kidnap a med student!

sorella

But some people have oddly higher cholesterol than others, regardless of diet; and others eat a high fat diet and have low cholesterol.

Compak

sorella wrote: »

But some people have oddly higher cholesterol than others, regardless of diet; and others eat a high fat diet and have low cholesterol.

Thats why genetic phenotype is the underlying determinant

Compak

Dead Ed wrote: »

Apparently he had data from 22 countries, picked 7 that gave the best fit and published it as "the seven countries study".

"To bolster his theory, Dr. Keys in 1953 compared diets and heart disease rates in the United States, Japan and four other countries. Sure enough, more fat correlated with more disease (America topped the list). But critics at the time noted that if Dr. Keys had analyzed all 22 countries for which data were available, he would not have found a correlation"

Oddly enough, this makes six!

From the same article:

The evidence that dietary fat correlates with heart disease “does not stand up to critical examination,” the American Heart Association concluded in 1957. But three years later the association changed position — not because of new data, Mr. Taubes writes, but because Dr. Keys and an ally were on the committee issuing the new report.

both from:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?_r=1&ex=1349668800&en=67642ef2330

"For example, Finland had a rate of heart disease that was 24 times that of Mexico yet they both had the same amount of fat intake." (not from above article)

"The other salient criticism of Keys's study was that he had observed only a correlation between two phenomena, not a clear causative link. So this left open the possibility that something else — unmeasured or unimagined — was leading to heart disease. After all, Americans did eat more fat than the Japanese, but perhaps they also consumed more sugar and white bread, and watched more television."

I'll try to find out how these guys came to know this though. It seems to pop up in several places on the internet but the source is hard to come by. If that were true I'd imagine Keys kept his lab books well hidden! I can't find the full text of Keys' article online either, I may have to raid the library or kidnap a med student!

I have keys study but no mention of the other countries.

And obviously one need the evidence that it is sturated fat that was raised and not total fat as quoted.

As by Keys equation alone PUFAS lower cholesterol.

cozmik

sorella wrote: »

But some people have oddly higher cholesterol than others, regardless of diet; and others eat a high fat diet and have low cholesterol.

Well the same can be said about smoking. Only 10% of all smokers ever get lung cancer.So only 10 % of all smokers are genetically susceptible to its carcinogenic effect.However! 90% of all lung cancers are attributed to smoking so we all know that avoiding smoking is a good idea if you want to diminish your chances of getting lung cancer!

sorella

Ah but smoking does far more damage than cancer.

cozmik wrote: »

Well the same can be said about smoking. Only 10% of all smokers ever get lung cancer.So only 10 % of all smokers are genetically susceptible to its carcinogenic effect.However! 90% of all lung cancers are attributed to smoking so we all know that avoiding smoking is a good idea if you want to diminish your chances of getting lung cancer!

Wibbs

Both the inuit and the maasai(among others) consume a diet incredibly high in saturated fats. Both have much less heart disease than westerners(and diabetes, obesity, etc). Now it could be a genetic protection or adaptation to such a diet, but studies have shown when these groups are exposed to a western diet their heart disease rate goes up massively. I personally reckon, sugars are the enemy(only recently a correlation between insulin resistance and alzheimers was noted). That, portion size and lack of diversity in the diet(though the maasai have a very restricted diet).

Sam Kade

Eating too much of anything is bad. If you stopped eating everything that scientists said was bad for you, you wouldn't be able to eat anything.

EileenG

Sam Kade wrote: »

Eating too much of anything is bad. If you stopped eating everything that scientists said was bad for you, you wouldn't be able to eat anything.

Amen to this. Try being pregnant, there isn't a food out there that some expect doesn't have a good reason for telling you to avoid. Tap water (miscarriage), beef (BSE), pork (antibiotics), yogurt (bacteria), lamb (scrapie), tuna (mercry) commercial veg (pestacides), organic veg (e coli), cheese (listeria) and so on and so on. And they they have the nerve to say "Relax and eat normally and enjoy your pregnancy".

El_Dangeroso

Ask any pig farmer, how they fatten up their pigs before slaughter and they will tell you, “feed them grains and skimmed milk.” Funny, that's what most dieticians advise you to eat to try and lose weight!

The thing the government seems to forget is that we're eating less saturated fat than ever before. Very few people, save well-informed low-carbers, buy real butter anymore, you can't get good quality lard, it's hard to buy mince that's not 90-95% lean, how are people supposed to be eating too much sat fat when processed food contains mostly soy-bean or corn oil?


Here's the absolute average values of sat-fat consumption of a few countries:



United States - animal fat 72g daily, 46% of fat calories
Italy - animal fat 71g daily, 46% of fat calories
France - animal fat 106g daily, 63% of fat calories
Greece - animal fat 57g daily, 40% of fat calories
Japan - animal fat 35g daily, 40% of fat calories


Now sugar consumption:



United states 657-calories a day, 17.5% of calories
France 383-calories/day 10.5% of calories
Italy 302-calories/day 8.2% of calories
Greece 332-calories/day 9% of calories
Japan 271-caloires/day 9.8% of calories


Now deaths from heart-disease:


United States - 106.5/100,000 die from heart disease each year
Italy - 65.2/100,000
France - 39.8/100,000
Greece - 68.8/100,000
Japan - 30/100,000


How can you look at the above figures and think, it's the saturated fat without having a logic-ectomy.


To mangle a phrase 'It's the sugar, stupid!'


Cosmik, you keep saying that the science backs you up, but you fail to provide any.

Here's some:
1. Felton CV, et al. Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and composition of human aortic plaques. Lancet 1994; 344: 1195-6

They found positive associations "between serum [in the bloodstream] and plaque [the stuff which blocks arteries] omega 6 B]VEGETABLE oil[/B (r = 0.75) and omega 3 (r = 0.93) polyunsaturated fatty acids, and monounsaturates (r = 0.70)... No associations were found with saturated fatty acids."

So you can eat what we've been eating for literally Millions of years of evolution (sat fats) or you can eat something man-made that was invented this century (Flora, Low Low et al.)

This video explains things pretty succinctly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

EileenG

Just to add: Trish's Paris Kitchen last week explained that to get the proper fatty liver for Foie Gras, you have to feed the goose lots of corn.

corkcomp

slightly off topic but are the people posting about animals being fed on carbohydrate based food sources actually aware that there arent really any alternatives!?
it is actually illegal in most countries to feed animals on food stuffs derived from other animals....

El_Dangeroso

Corkcomp, I think the point is that farmers want to give the geese fatty liver (foie gras) and to do this they use plenty of grains, which co-incidently is how you give a human fatty liver too.

It's not about the carbs, it's about the grains.

EileenG

corkcomp wrote: »

slightly off topic but are the people posting about animals being fed on carbohydrate based food sources actually aware that there arent really any alternatives!?
it is actually illegal in most countries to feed animals on food stuffs derived from other animals....

It's not illegal to give them grass, which is what most animals should be eating.

corkcomp

EileenG wrote: »

It's not illegal to give them grass, which is what most animals should be eating.

grass is a staple of a lot of animals - believe me I have a lot of family members involved in farming and grass isnt always an option for lots of reasons - some animals dont / wont eat it, it is not available all year round etc .. etc. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the option doesnt exist to feed animals on a non carb diet - gains are one of the only options in a lot of cases ... Also, a lot of animals lack the mechanism to know when they are full / have eaten enough so if they are given huge quantities of ANY food it would no doubt lead to fatty deposits!!!!

Macha

corkcomp wrote: »

grass is a staple of a lot of animals - believe me I have a lot of family members involved in farming and grass isnt always an option for lots of reasons - some animals dont / wont eat it, it is not available all year round etc .. etc. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the option doesnt exist to feed animals on a non carb diet - gains are one of the only options in a lot of cases ... Also, a lot of animals lack the mechanism to know when they are full / have eaten enough so if they are given huge quantities of ANY food it would no doubt lead to fatty deposits!!!!

corkcomp - that totally depends on what animal you're talking about.

Cows' stomachs are designed to only eat grass and other vegetation. Forcing them to eat other food like corn irritates their rumens and can result in sickness. When is grain the only option for cattle?

Chickens and pigs are different.

corkcomp

taconnol wrote: »

corkcomp - that totally depends on what animal you're talking about.

Cows' stomachs are designed to only eat grass and other vegetation. Forcing them to eat other food like corn irritates their rumens and can result in sickness. When is grain the only option for cattle?

Chickens and pigs are different.

absolutely, it depends on the animal .. Not wanting to turn this into a farming thread BUT there are lots of times when grains are an easier option for farmers, in terms of cost + labour required .. e.g. you can store grains in huge tanks and have timers to pump the desired quantities into the cows feeding units etc etc - grass is not available for a lot of the year and grains are often a cheaper option than putting grass into silos etc ... My overall point is that im not convinced that the only reasons grains are fed to cattle / other animals is to increase their body fat!

Macha

Ah see now you're talking about convenience and price - those are not down to a lack of availability of grass.

Grass is available all-year round but cows are taken off pasture in the winter (I have heard of farms where this isn't done at all) and should be fed hay instead. Feeding them large amounts of grain is nothing short of irresponsible, IMO.

corkcomp

taconnol wrote: »

Ah see now you're talking about convenience and price - those are not down to a lack of availability of grass.

Grass is available all-year round but cows are taken off pasture in the winter (I have heard of farms where this isn't done at all) and should be fed hay instead. Feeding them large amounts of grain is nothing short of irresponsible, IMO.

grass doesnt grow between oct and feb !!!!

Edwardius

corkcomp wrote: »

grass doesnt grow between oct and feb !!!!

That'll be why you make hay and silage!