Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Revamped Hurling League & Championship Structure

  • 10-02-2009 1:38pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭


    We all agree that the League is meaningless and very few of the general public take an interest in it, let alone turn up to matches?!

    And we all agree that the Championship has gotten over-complicated, and doesn't always lead to the 2 best teams battling it out in Croker in early September?!

    Most people agree that fundamental change is needed, but none seems to be forthcoming. So I asked myself if the problems with the structure of the League and Championship were to be solved and hurling to reach its obvious potential, how would this look in practice.

    I've prepared the below graphic to show just how such a revamped hurling season would look. Please take a look and post any feedback. The main changes can be summarised as:
    • There is one League with 12 teams, each plays each other once
    • Only the top 8 League finishers progress to the end of season Championship
    • The League standings effectively 'seed' the championship teams
    • Two provincial finals remain in place, finalists are based on League standings
    • The Championship only begins after the Provincial finals at the All Ireland quarter finals stage and is pure 'knock-out', except for
    • One Back door round available only for top 4 league finishers

    So the League is highly relevant, every rung on the final standings is hugely significant. The League has equal status to the restored 'knock-out' Championship. The traditional provincial finals and back-door round remain in place.

    This is more or less the same system used by Australia sports (AFL and Rugby League) where they refer to 'the Ladder' and 'the Finals'. For them its a tried and tested system which fosters 2 professional sports in a relatively small population and fan base.

    63051.gif


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Daysha


    That's an extremely well thought out structure leonardjos, well done. I've always been an advocator of a top to bottom restructuring of the league and Championship, so that's certainly one of the better propositions I've seen. Just a few points:

    One county can play as much as 16 games in a Championship season. Given we're on a much tighter schedule then the AFL due to club commitments and the impossibility of mid-week games, that may be too much for the average amateur hurler to manage in a year.

    I would like neutral venues to be retained as much as possible. If that can't happen then the GAA would need to pump millions and millions into modernising the stadiums of many of those 12 clubs.

    Waterford is generally regarded as one of the top 4-5 hurling counties in the country, yet our main home stadium is an absolute dive that struggles to fit 10,000 people. Given it location, the possibility of upgrading it to anything like Thurles or Cork simply can't happen, so that means an entirely new stadium of which who need to fit at least 25-30,000.

    You also lose the amazing atmosphere you can get at places like Thurles when two local rivals are facing each other. It's truly unique in Europe and I would still like to experience it for years to come.

    Also, we have one of the greatest stadiums in the world with Croke Park. HQ would have to host games other than just an AI SF and AI final. It's too good for just 3 hurling games a year. Maybe all 4 rounds of the C'Ship finals could take place there?

    But whats the alternative? Maybe matches involving 2 teams that finished in the top 8 from last years league should agree that all their matches take place at neutral venues, while matches involving teams that finished lower than 8th play in home/away venues? Just a thought.

    There are many things I agree with though. I believe teams should be playing as many DIFFERENT counties as possible, and this structure offers that. Many would say Galway and Waterford have generally been on par with each other the past decade and would throw up some very good matches, yet we've only met them once in the past 10 years: a group qualifier back in 2006. Yet we've played Cork TEN times in those same 10 years.

    I like the idea of the back door system for the top 4. It actually gives teams an incentitive to go for the top rather than just finish for any top 8. I like the idea of holding on to the Munster final too.

    Spread your idea out on other forums and stuff too to get more opinions on it. But its a +1 from me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 327 ✭✭Arctic89


    Not a bad system at all, and something similar could easily be implemented in the bottom tiers to mimic the top tier and also adding something to their leagues. I'd be in favour of running 3-4 rounds of the league in October November and having the so-called "freezeout" from December to Febraury (allowing teams to resume training in January). The weather this time of year sometimes dampens the competitiveness of a game. Take Sunday's Tipp Waterford game as an example, while agood game for hurling fans, the style of hurling that was played because of the weather wouldnt exactly get many spectators away from the 6 nations rugby.
    The one problem with your system is the fact that your effectively taking away the Munster championship, one of the best annual sport spectacles, (albeit that its a bit pointless with the back door system currently in place). Many Munster council delegates would not vote in a system such as yours because it would mean an end to the Munster championship as they know it. Although, they would be wrong, as the invention of the back door effectively ended the Munster championship as we knew it.
    Besides from that, good system, I'd really love the GAA to bring in something that meant more important matches more often, at the moment we're not getting enough.
    +1 from me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭jordainius


    Good idea, and well presented. But I wouldn't go for it myself. I'll list my main issues with it!

    *Much too big an emphasis on the league's importance.
    *Too many league games- could potentially wreak havoc with county championships which already suffer due to current fixture congestion caused by the existence of the backdoor system.
    *Provincial championships gone. (As a Limerickman I'd be devastated to lose the Munster championship!)
    *Have you made any allowances for promotion/relegation? It is hugely important that the structure offers an incentive for the likes of Westmeath and Carlow to continue their recent development.

    Great diagram by the way! I have my own ideas on what I'd like to see, I'll post later!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    I think this is a good idea. The only one of the disadvantages raised so far that I would see as a major problem is the loss of all the Munster championship except the final - I suppose you could argue that it is only 3 games, but the question is if it would be worth losing those 3 games.

    Fixtures - as déise says it would be a maximum 16 games (11 league, 5 championship). But under the current system the max is 14 (8 league, 6 championship). I know Leonard's system would make a team more likely to play the max than they are under the current but it shows that 16 should not be impossible. There are 52 weeks in a year after all. Also pre-season torunaments like Walsh Cup and Waterford Crystal could easily enough be abolished, which reduces inter-county games and also addresses the fashionable issue of burnout for young players.

    If it really is a problem, split the 12-team Division 1 into 2 groups of 6. If you need to decide which of the 2 winners was 1st in the league, which of the 2 runners-up was 3rd etc, I have 2 possible suggestions.
    1;the team with more points.
    2;Another possibility - last weekend of the league would involve 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th--place play-offs. So between the 2 winners with the winning team to be 1st in the league, between the 2 runners-up with the winning team to be 3rd in the league, and so on.

    Grounds - an arrangement like déise suggested.

    League becoming more important - why exactly is it a problem? Aren't we always complaining about its lack of importance? And championship would still be the highlight of the year.

    Promotion / relegation - does need to be included. Two possiblilities..

    1: teams from Div 2 getting a chance at promotion to Div 1
    2: the bottom one or two counties from Div 1 (who wouldn't qualify for the McCarthy Cup under the new system) play in the Ring instead and the winners / finalists of the Ring get into Div 1 next year. Teams like Westmeath get the chance to test themselves against the bottom 'big 12' team or teams and try to get promoted, and teams like Laois get the chance both to play 5 or 6 matches against sides at the highest level and more games against beatable opposition


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    leonardjos wrote: »
    [*]There is one League with 12 teams, each plays each other once
    Fine, but the season would need to start a bit earlier. Also there needs to be a 2nd Division with developing teams getting 1 promotion spot into the big 12 league. This is vital for developing weaker counties.
    leonardjos wrote: »
    [*]Only the top 8 League finishers progress to the end of season Championship
    Yep, no problem with that. The teams finishing 9-12 are not going to figure too prominently anyway. This will make the league very relevant with teams knowing they are out of the hunt for Liam if they don't get that 8th place.
    leonardjos wrote: »
    [*]The League standings effectively 'seed' the championship teams
    Excellent idea. The onus will be on teams to field their best teams from the first league games, and will ensure we get great competitive games throughout the league/C'ship season.
    leonardjos wrote: »
    [*]Two provincial finals remain in place, finalists are based on League standings
    Not a bad idea, although i doubt that will go down with the traditionalists who would prefer an open provincial C'hampionship to continue as it is. Not easy to shoehorn it into this proposed setup though without causing major fixture conjestion, so this idea would be a good compromise.
    leonardjos wrote: »
    [*]The Championship only begins after the Provincial finals at the All Ireland quarter finals stage and is pure 'knock-out', except for
    [*]One Back door round available only for top 4 league finishers
    Should provide a good climax to the season. Should guarantee the best teams are still involved for as long as possible.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    Fine, but the season would need to start a bit earlier. Also there needs to be a 2nd Division with developing teams getting 1 promotion spot into the big 12 league. This is vital for developing weaker counties.

    I had a couple of suggestions to fix those problems above if you read my post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Daysha


    Here's what I've come up after a bit of brainstorming. I don't think it's as good as the original posters idea, but it's not as radical and could be something more along the lines of what the GAA could consider in the future.
    Group Stages

    MUNSTER
    Clare
    Cork
    Limerick
    Tipperary
    Waterford

    REST OF IRELAND
    Dublin
    Galway
    Kilkenny
    Offaly
    Wexford

    Every team plays every team in their group once
    Two options possible for venues:
    a) every team gets 2 home and 2 away matches
    b) matchdays to take place as provencial double headers in neutral venues
    Match days to take place every 2 weeks, ie, matches in 1st and 3rd week of May and June, and the 1st week of July.
    5 seperate match days for each group are needed, but each team will have one matchday off at some point.


    Provencial Finals

    1st in Munster vs 2nd in Munster
    1st in ROI vs 2nd in ROI
    Matches to be played in neutral venues at separate locations on 2nd week of July

    All-Ireland Series
    Qualifying Round
    3rd in Munster vs 4th in ROI
    4th in Munster vs 3rd in ROI
    Matches to be played as a double header in a neutral venue on 3rd week of July

    Quarter Finals
    Munster finalist vs Winner of QR match 1
    ROI finalist vs Winner of QR match 2
    Matches to be played as double header in a neutral venue on 4th week of July

    Relegation Series

    Loser of Match 1 in Qualifier vs Christy Ring Semi Finalist
    Loser of Match 2 in Qualifier vs Christy Ring Semi Finalist
    5th in Munster vs Christy Ring Finalist
    5th in ROI vs Christy Ring Winner
    Winners of each 4 matches to qualify for next years Championship.
    Matches to be played as 2 double headers in neutral venues on 1st week of August.

    All-Ireland Series
    Semi Finals
    Munster winners vs ROI finalist/Winner of QR match 2
    ROI winners vs Munster finalist/Winner of QR match 2
    Matches to be played in Croke Park on 2nd and 3rd week of August

    Final
    Winner of SF match 1 vs Winner of SF match 2
    Match to be played in Croke Park on 2nd week of September

    Reasoning behind system
    • Every team is guaranteed at least 5 competitive matches.
    • The most matches a team will play is 8, so there's still room to complete club requirements.
    • It vastly reduces the amount of meaningless qualifiers. Every match really means something.
    • It holds onto the provencial segregation aspect of a GAA Championship, which will appeal to traditionalists.
    • Unlike other suggestions in GAA circles, it does not run the provencial championship as a complete seperate entity to the All-Ireland series. It's still directly connected so it will continue to have the same intensity.
    • A reduction to 10 teams means more competitiveness in the bottom half of the groups, while also increasing the standard of the Christy Ring, with good teams like Antrim and Laois competing.
    • 4 relegation matches gives more sides the opportunity of joining the elite 10, thereby increasing competition in the Christy Ring.
    • Every position in each group is given consideration. The higher you finish, the greater the rewards.
    • The spread of the fixture list works well. Every team is guaranteed at least a 3 week break at some point in the summer and the only time a team will need to play 2 weeks running, regardless of replays, is the qualifiers/quarter finals.
    Some possible criticisms
    • It doesn't fix the unbalanced nature of a hurling Championship. The Munster group will always be stronger than a ROI group.
    • It doesn't consider what would occur in the future possibility that a Munster team is relegated. It would mean one group of 4 and another of 6 meaning more adjustments.
    • We will be left with a strong Munster team having to face a relegation match without reaching for an AI qualifier.
    • We lose a knockout Munster Championship.
    • A team could lose 3 matches in the groups and go on to win the All Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭leonardjos


    The other problem with Deise's proposed structure is that is resembles the existing League arrangement. Based on the starting date you give as at the first week in May, I presume you are leaving the current League in place. This does give a lot of 'League' type fixtures in the season, and makes for a lot of games in one season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    (part 1)
    These seem to be the main problems remaining that people have had with Leonard’s excellent suggestion
    *Too much emphasis on league
    *Too many league games
    *Provincial championships gone other than the final (main problem being Munster).

    I suggest a slight adjustment as follows to address those.
    League: Leonard’s 12-team Division 1 to be split into Div 1A and Div 1B with play-offs between the group winners, between the 2 runners-up, between the 2 third-place teams etc as I suggested in a previous post in order to decide who is overall first, second third etc. The groups would be seeded according to last year’s results to make sure they are about the same standard.
    Top 9 teams in league qualify for the provincial championships. 12th team plays in the Ring Cup with the Ring Cup champions getting into Division 1 the following year.
    Provincial championships as they now are. Optionally, byes from preliminary rounds and home advantages could be given according to league position.
    Qualifiers- there will be 5 teams who didn’t make it to a provincial final. The 4 who did best in the NHL get into the qualifier round. Home advantage could go to the 2 who did best in the NHL
    AI quarter-finals. The 2 losing provincial finalists against the two qualifier winners
    AI semi-finals; The 2 provincial champions against the 2 winning quarter-finalists


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    (part 2)
    This ensures there would not be too many games – in fact the majority of teams would most likely have fewer games a year but more meaningful games, reducing fixture congestion and club probless. Also retains the provincial championships.

    League not as important as the OP’s original suggestion but still should be much more competitive and interesting. Should be good competition especially in the lower half of the table with teams trying to get in the top 9 and avoid the 12th spot that means having to play in and win the Ring. The likes of Westmeath and Carlow would have a real chance at promotion to the top level by winning Ring while teams such as Laois might actually be better off having more games against beatable opposition in addition to the top-flight matches (but not instead of the top-flight matches). Top few teams in Div 1 meanwhile would have the incentive of better seeding for championship. Optionally, but not necessarily, it would be a possibility to give the league champions a bye into their provincial final (bit like the original proposal) thus giving a major incentive to win the league. League play-off weekend should be a good climax, with especial importance for the final and the crucial 9th and 11th place play-offs.[/FONT]

    In championship, teams that already met should be kept apart in draw if possible.



    ]Example of the format (winners first)
    ]League
    Div 1A KK, Tipp, Waterford, Clare, Wexford, Laois[/FONT]
    Div 1B Galway, Cork, Limerick, Dublin, Antrim, Offaly.[/FONT]

    ]League 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th –place play-offs[/FONT]
    ]KK Galway[/FONT]
    ]Tipp Cork[/FONT]
    Waterford Limerick[/FONT]
    Clare Dublin[/FONT]
    ]Wexford Antrim[/FONT]
    ]Offaly Laois [/FONT]

    ]Top 9 teams qualify for the Championsnhip i.e. [/FONT]
    ]KK Galway Tipp Cork Waterford Limerick Clare Dub Wex Wexford[/FONT]
    Laois finish 12th and play in Ring Cup with the winners qualifying for next year’s Div 1[/FONT]

    Qualifying for Leinster are KK Galway Dublin Wexford. Say KK bt Galway in final[/FONT]
    Qualifying for Munster Tipp Cork Waterford Limerick Clare . Say Tipp beat Cork in final[/FONT]

    ]Qualifiers; 5 teams that didn’t get to Mun/Lein final (minus the lowest finishers in league i.e. Wex)[/FONT]
    Limerick-Dublin[/FONT]
    Waterford-Clare[/FONT]

    Quarter-finals[/FONT]
    Galway-Waterford[/FONT]
    Cork-LImerick[/FONT]

    Semis[
    KK-Cork
    Tipp Galway

    Final
    ]KK-Tipp

    Any thoughts?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭jordainius


    My main gripe with the current championship structure is the backdoor system. At the end of the day it isn't really working. It was introduced to give weaker counties a second chance but the main benefactors seem to have been the big 3.

    12 years before backdoor
    85 Offaly bt Galway
    86 Cork bt Galway
    87 Galway bt Kilkenny
    88 Galway bt Tipperary
    89 Tipperary bt Antrim
    90 Cork bt Galway
    91 Tipperary bt Kilkenny
    92 Kilkenny bt Cork
    93 Kilkenny bt Galway
    94 Offaly bt Limerick
    95 Clare bt Offaly
    96 Wexford bt Limerick

    12 years since backdoor
    97 Clare bt Tipperary
    98 Offaly bt Kilkenny
    99 Cork bt Kilkenny
    00 Kilkenny bt Offaly
    01 Tipperary bt Galway
    02 Kilkenny bt Clare
    03 Kilkenny bt Cork
    04 Cork bt Kilkenny
    05 Cork bt Galway
    06 Kilkenny bt Cork
    07 Kilkenny bt Limerick
    08 Kilkenny bt Waterford

    Now the above facts don't lie

    Then there's the following
    (pre backdoor 1985-1996) V (post backdoor 1997-2008)
    (4 finals with no member of big 3) V (ALL finals contain 1 member of big 3)
    (6 titles between big 3) V (10 titles between big 3)

    Galway reached 6 finals from 85 to 96 but only two final appearances since the backdoor was introduced.


    I think its very clear that the backdoor system simply isn't working. The old system should be resurrected.

    Take 2004 for example. Waterford won the Munster title after an epic final with Cork and Wexford caused a major upset by defeating Kilkenny in the Leinster semi final and went on to claim the title.

    Under the old system the All-Ireland semi finals would have been as follows;
    Antrim -v- Waterford
    Galway -v- Wexford

    We could have had what probably would either have been a Waterford v Galway or a Waterford v Wexford final, and either one would have been a fantastic and unique occasion which would have captured the imagination of the whole country.

    Instead we ended up with a Cork Kilkenny final because of the backdoor system which ironically was designed to help the weaker counties. You could argue that it brought the two best counties to the final but look at the potential finals it cost us.


    So my proposal, admittedly not imaginative at all, would be to revert to the old straight knockout system.

    Also, I would like to see the hurling league starting later in the year and even running concurrently with the early rounds of the provincial championships.

    For example;

    NHL; starting April, finishing in July.
    Provincial championships; June and July.
    All-Ireland semi's and final; August and September.

    Why?
    Hurling in better conditions instead of waterlogged February pitches.
    The likes of Galway would be playing competitive league games up to July which would keep them nice and sharp going into August for their All-Ireland semi.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Some really thought out posts. Well done.

    My issue is with the cost of league games.

    I feel that for league games to start attracting bigger crowds is to reduce the cost. In the last 2 weeks I have spent E27 to watch 2 poor games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    Some really thought out posts. Well done.

    My issue is with the cost of league games.

    I feel that for league games to start attracting bigger crowds is to reduce the cost. In the last 2 weeks I have spent E27 to watch 2 poor games.

    I absolutely agree that the costs should be reduced like you suggest, and it would probably help. But at the end of the day the only thing likely to make a major difference is if games actually matter somewhat. And as some of us have suggested, the way to do that is for it to have some link with the championship.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Daysha


    A part of me wants to agree with you jordainius. Youre right about 2004, the two teams that deserved to be there were deprived of the final the entire country would've loved to see.

    But whenever I think of the days of no backdoors, I go back to 99-01 when Waterford played THREE championship matches in as many years. We lost to Cork by 6pts in 99, Tipp by 3 in 2000 and Limerick by 4 or 5 in 2001. Those matches were the only championship action I saw all year.

    Ever since 2002, I've been able to see my county play Championship hurling on upwards of 5-6 times a year. With the standard of hurling across the country at the moment, I wouldn't be able to even fathom the thought of the possibility of seeing Waterford play only 70 mins of hurling all summer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    jordainius wrote: »
    My main gripe with the current championship structure is the backdoor system. At the end of the day it isn't really working. It was introduced to give weaker counties a second chance but the main benefactors seem to have been the big 3.

    12 years before backdoor
    85 Offaly bt Galway
    86 Cork bt Galway
    87 Galway bt Kilkenny
    88 Galway bt Tipperary
    89 Tipperary bt Antrim
    90 Cork bt Galway
    91 Tipperary bt Kilkenny
    92 Kilkenny bt Cork
    93 Kilkenny bt Galway
    94 Offaly bt Limerick
    95 Clare bt Offaly
    96 Wexford bt Limerick

    12 years since backdoor
    97 Clare bt Tipperary
    98 Offaly bt Kilkenny
    99 Cork bt Kilkenny
    00 Kilkenny bt Offaly
    01 Tipperary bt Galway
    02 Kilkenny bt Clare
    03 Kilkenny bt Cork
    04 Cork bt Kilkenny
    05 Cork bt Galway
    06 Kilkenny bt Cork
    07 Kilkenny bt Limerick
    08 Kilkenny bt Waterford

    Now the above facts don't lie

    Then there's the following
    (pre backdoor 1985-1996) V (post backdoor 1997-2008)
    (4 finals with no member of big 3) V (ALL finals contain 1 member of big 3)
    (6 titles between big 3) V (10 titles between big 3)

    Galway reached 6 finals from 85 to 96 but only two final appearances since the backdoor was introduced.


    I think its very clear that the backdoor system simply isn't working. The old system should be resurrected.

    Take 2004 for example. Waterford won the Munster title after an epic final with Cork and Wexford caused a major upset by defeating Kilkenny in the Leinster semi final and went on to claim the title.

    Under the old system the All-Ireland semi finals would have been as follows;
    Antrim -v- Waterford
    Galway -v- Wexford

    We could have had what probably would either have been a Waterford v Galway or a Waterford v Wexford final, and either one would have been a fantastic and unique occasion which would have captured the imagination of the whole country.

    Instead we ended up with a Cork Kilkenny final because of the backdoor system which ironically was designed to help the weaker counties. You could argue that it brought the two best counties to the final but look at the potential finals it cost us.


    So my proposal, admittedly not imaginative at all, would be to revert to the old straight knockout system.

    Also, I would like to see the hurling league starting later in the year and even running concurrently with the early rounds of the provincial championships.

    For example;

    NHL; starting April, finishing in July.
    Provincial championships; June and July.
    All-Ireland semi's and final; August and September.

    Why?
    Hurling in better conditions instead of waterlogged February pitches.
    The likes of Galway would be playing competitive league games up to July which would keep them nice and sharp going into August for their All-Ireland semi.

    I'm afraid deise is right.

    First you have the problem that the dozen knock-out "Revolution Years" you use were far from representative of the knock-out years - they were the exception NOT the rule in avoiding Cork-KK-Tipp dominance. There are other problems in your analysis, such as the fact that of the Big 3 wins in the back-door years, most (though not all) were by winning the provincial championship NOT by back-door - so they would have dominated a knock-out championship as well.

    But much more important would be (like Déise says) the sheer paucity of big games you would have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭jordainius


    I think its fair to say that it would be next to impossible to find a system that would satisfy everyone!

    Agus and deise59, you do make very good points. It is more than fair to call those years "revolution years"! And I do remember very clearly the years 1998, 99 and 2000 when Limerick only had one game a year which really hit hard as we were gettin used to having at least two games a year for the 4 or 5 previous years!

    It really bugs me about 2004 though, I really feel that that would have been Waterford's year were it not for the backdoor and a Waterford All-Ireland would have been fantastic for hurling, its a shame that this team appears to have missed the boat.

    There are pro's and con's to every system imaginable. I did have another idea once but unfortunately it would require doing away with the Leinster and Munster Championships. They are the main stumbling block to a fair system though.

    I'll post my idea and I'm going to base it on the 2008 NHL.

    36 eligible counties (32 Irish plus London, Fingal, Warwickshire and South Down.

    NHL OVERVIEW
    3 Divisions. (12 teams per division, 2 groups<i.e. 1A, 1B; 2A, 2B; 3A, 3B.)
    There will be NO PROMOTION or RELEGATION within the NHL itself, however promotion and relegation will be applied for the nextyear based on McCarthy/Ring/Rackard performance.

    Last years NHL finishing positions
    1A; 1st-Kilkenny, 2-Cork, 3-Waterford, 4-Dublin, 5-Wexford, 6-Antrim.
    1B; 1st-Galway, 2-Tipperary, 3-Limerick, 4-Clare, 5-Laois, 6-Offaly.

    2A; 1st-Westmeath, 2-Kerry, 3-Kildare, 4-Mayo, 5-Wicklow, 6-Roscommon.
    2B; 1st-Carlow, 2-Down, 3-Meath, 4-Derry, 5-Armagh, 6-Derry.

    (I've modified last years Division 3 to suit my structure)
    3A; 1st-Donegal, 2-Tyrone, 3-Sligo, 4-Fermanagh, 5-Cavan, 6-Warwickshire.
    3B; 1st-Louth, 2-Longford, 3-SouthDown, 4-Monahgan, 5-Leitrim, 6-Fingal.

    The leagues will carry on as normal with quarters, semi's and finals. But league relegation and promotion will be decided by championship performance

    *Overview of my proposed format*
    McCarthy, Ring, and Rackard championships to contain 12 teams each.
    Championships will consist of 4 groups of 3 teams.
    The top 2 teams will qualify for the quarter finals, teams finishing first will be drawn at home to teams finishing second.
    The 4 teams who finish 3rd must enter relegation play offs.

    2008 Championship Draw
    *Teams who finish 1st and 2nd in their NHL groups will be entered as first seeds. (so pot 1 contains Kilk, Cork, Galw, Tipp)

    *Teams who finish 3rd and 4th in their NHL groups will be entered as second seeds. (so pot 2 contains Watd, Dubl, Limk, Clare)

    *Teams who finish 5th and 6th in their NHL groups will be entered as third seeds. (so pot 3 contains Wexf, Antr, Laois, Offl)

    I'll randomly draw the groups

    Group A; Cork, Clare, Laois.
    Group B; Kilkenny, Limerick, Wexford.
    Group C; Tipperary, Dublin, Antrim.
    Group D; Galway, Waterford, Offaly.

    Fixtures; (home advantage on left)
    week1; 3rd seed -v- 1st seed (third seed gets difficult home tie and first seed gets easier away tie)
    week2; 2nd seed -v- 3rd seed
    week3; 1st seed -v- 2nd seed. (all 3 teams play one home and away tie each)

    So lets say based on last years performances that the group winners were [Cor, Klk, Tip, Wat] and the runners up were [Cla, Wex, Dub, Gal].
    The All-Ireland Quarter final draw would go something like this. (teams who have already met to be kept apart)

    Tipperary -v- Wexford
    Kilkenny -v- Clare
    Cork -v- Galway
    Waterford -v- Dublin

    Group winners have choice of home venue.
    4 winners into semi final draw and so on until a champion emerges.


    As for the teams who finished 3rd in the group stage, they are drawn into 2 relegation play offs i.e.

    Laois -v- Limerick
    Antrim -v- Offaly

    The losers play off in the relegation final. The losers of the final will be relegated.


    The exact same system will be applied for the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups

    So lets pick champions and relegated teams based on last year

    Liam Mac champions; Kilkenny.
    Liam Mac relegated; Laois.
    C Ring champions; Carlow.
    C Ring relegated; Roscommon.
    N Rackard champions; Sligo.

    So Carlow and Laois would swap places as would Roscommon and Sligo for both next years league and championship.


    So there, sorry its so long winded. This is a very good format but I would hate to see the provincial championships cease to exist.

    Maybe they should be run as stand alone championships (like Ulster at present..)


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    jordainius wrote: »
    I think its fair to say that it would be next to impossible to find a system that would satisfy everyone!

    Agus and deise59, you do make very good points. It is more than fair to call those years "revolution years"! And I do remember very clearly the years 1998, 99 and 2000 when Limerick only had one game a year which really hit hard as we were gettin used to having at least two games a year for the 4 or 5 previous years!

    It really bugs me about 2004 though, I really feel that that would have been Waterford's year were it not for the backdoor and a Waterford All-Ireland would have been fantastic for hurling, its a shame that this team appears to have missed the boat.

    There are pro's and con's to every system imaginable. I did have another idea once but unfortunately it would require doing away with the Leinster and Munster Championships. They are the main stumbling block to a fair system though.

    I'll post my idea and I'm going to base it on the 2008 NHL.

    36 eligible counties (32 Irish plus London, Fingal, Warwickshire and South Down.

    NHL OVERVIEW
    3 Divisions. (12 teams per division, 2 groups<i.e. 1A, 1B; 2A, 2B; 3A, 3B.)
    There will be NO PROMOTION or RELEGATION within the NHL itself, however promotion and relegation will be applied for the nextyear based on McCarthy/Ring/Rackard performance.

    Last years NHL finishing positions
    1A; 1st-Kilkenny, 2-Cork, 3-Waterford, 4-Dublin, 5-Wexford, 6-Antrim.
    1B; 1st-Galway, 2-Tipperary, 3-Limerick, 4-Clare, 5-Laois, 6-Offaly.

    2A; 1st-Westmeath, 2-Kerry, 3-Kildare, 4-Mayo, 5-Wicklow, 6-Roscommon.
    2B; 1st-Carlow, 2-Down, 3-Meath, 4-Derry, 5-Armagh, 6-Derry.

    (I've modified last years Division 3 to suit my structure)
    3A; 1st-Donegal, 2-Tyrone, 3-Sligo, 4-Fermanagh, 5-Cavan, 6-Warwickshire.
    3B; 1st-Louth, 2-Longford, 3-SouthDown, 4-Monahgan, 5-Leitrim, 6-Fingal.

    The leagues will carry on as normal with quarters, semi's and finals. But league relegation and promotion will be decided by championship performance

    *Overview of my proposed format*
    McCarthy, Ring, and Rackard championships to contain 12 teams each.
    Championships will consist of 4 groups of 3 teams.
    The top 2 teams will qualify for the quarter finals, teams finishing first will be drawn at home to teams finishing second.
    The 4 teams who finish 3rd must enter relegation play offs.

    2008 Championship Draw
    *Teams who finish 1st and 2nd in their NHL groups will be entered as first seeds. (so pot 1 contains Kilk, Cork, Galw, Tipp)

    *Teams who finish 3rd and 4th in their NHL groups will be entered as second seeds. (so pot 2 contains Watd, Dubl, Limk, Clare)

    *Teams who finish 5th and 6th in their NHL groups will be entered as third seeds. (so pot 3 contains Wexf, Antr, Laois, Offl)

    I'll randomly draw the groups

    Group A; Cork, Clare, Laois.
    Group B; Kilkenny, Limerick, Wexford.
    Group C; Tipperary, Dublin, Antrim.
    Group D; Galway, Waterford, Offaly.

    Fixtures; (home advantage on left)
    week1; 3rd seed -v- 1st seed (third seed gets difficult home tie and first seed gets easier away tie)
    week2; 2nd seed -v- 3rd seed
    week3; 1st seed -v- 2nd seed. (all 3 teams play one home and away tie each)

    So lets say based on last years performances that the group winners were [Cor, Klk, Tip, Wat] and the runners up were [Cla, Wex, Dub, Gal].
    The All-Ireland Quarter final draw would go something like this. (teams who have already met to be kept apart)

    Tipperary -v- Wexford
    Kilkenny -v- Clare
    Cork -v- Galway
    Waterford -v- Dublin

    Group winners have choice of home venue.
    4 winners into semi final draw and so on until a champion emerges.


    As for the teams who finished 3rd in the group stage, they are drawn into 2 relegation play offs i.e.

    Laois -v- Limerick
    Antrim -v- Offaly

    The losers play off in the relegation final. The losers of the final will be relegated.


    The exact same system will be applied for the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups

    So lets pick champions and relegated teams based on last year

    Liam Mac champions; Kilkenny.
    Liam Mac relegated; Laois.
    C Ring champions; Carlow.
    C Ring relegated; Roscommon.
    N Rackard champions; Sligo.

    So Carlow and Laois would swap places as would Roscommon and Sligo for both next years league and championship.


    So there, sorry its so long winded. This is a very good format but I would hate to see the provincial championships cease to exist.

    Maybe they should be run as stand alone championships (like Ulster at present..)


    I tend to agree about 2004, but as you say every system has pros and cons. The format you suggest is an excellent one, it would just be a pity for the Munster and Leinster championships to be downgraded as they inevitably would if they were stand-alone. Maybe the two champions could be given a reward in the groups, such as starting with bonus points? That way there would still be some incentive to win the provincial championships.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Daysha


    A good idea in theory jordainius. But I wouldn't be so sure about giving home advantages for an All-Ireland quarter final. Home/Away matches would be fine for the groups, but after that it really shoul be neutral venues, especially in a situation where the loser exits the Championship completely.

    Anyway, meeting a weaker 2nd place team is an incentive in itself to finish 1st in the groups.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 tethad


    not bad, especially if you can keep Munster being devalued too much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    How would you feel about the current format with no radical change but some modifications as follows?

    1. give the league champions a little bit of a reward by allowing them to play all championship games (except provincial final / AI series) at home (or at a venue of their choice if there was a problem with playing at the home stadium).

    2 Reduce the NHL first division and second division from 8 teams to 7. Div 2 would be slightly more competitive, while the likes of Wmeath and Carlow still get an opportunity to play teams at the next level.

    3. In the Leinster championship, allow the top 9 non-Munster teams from the league to play. The 6th to 9th teams will play in the first round, after which it goes on in the current format.
    e.g.
    NHL final table; 11 Antrim 12 Laois 13 Carlow 14 Westmeath
    Leinster first round Antrim v Westmeath, Laois v Carlow.
    At whatever stage Westmeath and Carlow lost, they would be into the Ring, similar to the situation when Westmeath were in Leinster previously. If a team scheduled to play McCarthy Cup didn't manage to qualify for the Leinster championship, they would have to go into the Ring with the best Ring team in the NHL getting into the McCarthy Cup (i.e. they can play qualifiers instead of dropping to the Ring when they lose in Leinster).
    This should be good for an 'in between' team like Westmeath and gives a team like Laois an extra winnable championship game. It also increases league competition.

    4. Teams not to be drawn to play each other if they've already played in that year's championship (unless it can't be avoided in the draw e.g. if they both got to the final). Avoiding the bad experience of say Waterford against a team they had already beaten, and reducing the chances of 'staleness' with a pair of teams constantly meeting.

    5. Players to be allowed to play with their clubs on all non-county-match weeks except one before a senior inter-county championship match week


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Daysha


    1. give the league champions a little bit of a reward by allowing them to play all championship games (except provincial final / AI series) at home (or at a venue of their choice if there was a problem with playing at the home stadium).

    Seems a good idea in theory. Anything to make the league more competitive is a good thing, and I'd definitely be in favour of some link between the league and championship.
    2 Reduce the NHL first division and second division from 8 teams to 7. Div 2 would be slightly more competitive, while the likes of Wmeath and Carlow still get an opportunity to play teams at the next level.

    Fine by me.
    3. In the Leinster championship, allow the top 9 non-Munster teams from the league to play. The 6th to 9th teams will play in the first round, after which it goes on in the current format.
    e.g.
    NHL final table; 11 Antrim 12 Laois 13 Carlow 14 Westmeath
    Leinster first round Antrim v Westmeath, Laois v Carlow.
    At whatever stage Westmeath and Carlow lost, they would be into the Ring, similar to the situation when Westmeath were in Leinster previously. If a team scheduled to play McCarthy Cup didn't manage to qualify for the Leinster championship, they would have to go into the Ring with the best Ring team in the NHL getting into the McCarthy Cup (i.e. they can play qualifiers instead of dropping to the Ring when they lose in Leinster).
    This should be good for an 'in between' team like Westmeath and gives a team like Laois an extra winnable championship game. It also increases league competition.

    A very good idea. The current system of Westmeath being barred from their own provencial championship is farcical.
    4. Teams not to be drawn to play each other if they've already played in that year's championship (unless it can't be avoided in the draw e.g. if they both got to the final). Avoiding the bad experience of say Waterford against a team they had already beaten, and reducing the chances of 'staleness' with a pair of teams constantly meeting.

    I'd like to see it, but it's hard to implement when hurling only has 9/10 really competitive counties. As long as it doesn't mean something like forcing Munster winners v Leinster winners in a QF or SF, good. Sure in 2007 Waterford played 5 Championship matches but only against 2 different counties, Cork and Limerick, effictively being forced to win the Munster Championship twice to reach an AI Final.
    5. Players to be allowed to play with their clubs on all non-county-match weeks except one before a senior inter-county championship match week

    Yeah, no problem with that either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Agus


    deise59 wrote: »
    I'd like to see it, but it's hard to implement when hurling only has 9/10 really competitive counties. As long as it doesn't mean something like forcing Munster winners v Leinster winners in a QF or SF, good. Sure in 2007 Waterford played 5 Championship matches but only against 2 different counties, Cork and Limerick, effictively being forced to win the Munster Championship twice to reach an AI Final.
    Yes, nothing like forcing that, it would only be if it could be done in the draw within the existing rules. So Waterford in the quarter could not have met Cork and would have played say Tipp. Then the semi-finals would have seen them against Wexford not Limerick.


Advertisement