How important is the right name over the door?

DubTony

I'm looking for opinions here lads. I'm close to doing a deal on a c-store and am in a slightly precarious position. I'm doing this under-funded. :eek:

I've spoken to 2 Symbol groups, with a view to getting them to cough up the cash to renovate the shop in return for my business. Here's my question.

How important is it to you which name a c-store hs over the door. I've been a bit entrenched in my opinion that you need to have one of the big 4 to have any credibility. They are Centra, Spar, Londis and Mace. However there are a few others out there and I'd like to guage opinion. The others are Daybreak, XL Stop and Shop, Gala (Vivo is gone as BWG took over and are rebranding as Mace where they can).

So, purely from a customers point of view, does the name mean anything to you? Would you stop at a new Centra store and by-pass a Spar or Daybreak? Does it matter? Thanks

Bandara

DubTony wrote: »

I'm looking for opinions here lads. I'm close to doing a deal on a c-store and am in a slightly precarious position. I'm doing this under-funded. :eek:

I've spoken to 2 Symbol groups, with a view to getting them to cough up the cash to renovate the shop in return for my business. Here's my question.

How important is it to you which name a c-store hs over the door. I've been a bit entrenched in my opinion that you need to have one of the big 4 to have any credibility. They are Centra, Spar, Londis and Mace. However there are a few others out there and I'd like to guage opinion. The others are Daybreak, XL Stop and Shop, Gala (Vivo is gone as BWG took over and are rebranding as Mace where they can).

So, purely from a customers point of view, does the name mean anything to you? Would you stop at a new Centra store and by-pass a Spar or Daybreak? Does it matter? Thanks

I think its the single most important thing next to location. A store I have was scheduled to be a Mace, I secured it 2 weeks before it was due to open and delayed opening for 6 weeks to change everything to the Spar concept.

I refused to take it if it was Mace.

Your losing out on advertising by the symbol group, brand recognition, brand streght in terms of buying power and support from suppliers.

An the slickness of the offering of a Spar/Centra is lights years away from a XL or a Daybreak etc.

(Sorry Tony, not the answer you wanted mate)

Great news on the new unit though, delighted for you.

DubTony

tsk: Bloody shopkeepers.

Thanks HT. Unfortunately your extremely biased opinion doesn't fit well with my back account. (And I can't disagree with you even a little bit)

So, anyone else out there give a rat's ass what name is over the door? I'm looking for honest opinions, and please don't take into consideration that I've left part of my rear end in another location. :rolleyes:
One fellah I've spoken to believes that even a lesser name can work, and work well, if the operator is as good as he likes to believe I am.

I'm seriously of the opinion that the better a place looks, the better it's kitted out and the more recognizeable the name over the door is, the better the chance it has of hitting the ground running. But that's not the viewpoint I need. So, looking in from the outside (as a customer) please guys. Thanks again.

an_other

Location and apperance of the shop front are more important than the name over the door for me. I'd rather go into a clean well laid out Gala than a spar with the paint flaking.

Bandara

DubTony wrote: »

tsk: Bloody shopkeepers.

Thanks HT. Unfortunately your extremely biased opinion doesn't fit well with my back account. (And I can't disagree with you even a little bit)

So, anyone else out there give a rat's ass what name is over the door? I'm looking for honest opinions, and please don't take into consideration that I've left part of my rear end in another location. :rolleyes:
One fellah I've spoken to believes that even a lesser name can work, and work well, if the operator is as good as he likes to believe I am.

I'm seriously of the opinion that the better a place looks, the better it's kitted out and the more recognizeable the name over the door is, the better the chance it has of hitting the ground running. But that's not the viewpoint I need. So, looking in from the outside (as a customer) please guys. Thanks again.

As long as its not a scoby Londis you'll be alright...



Touche

:P

swanvill

I agree location and appearance are critical, if the place looks dirty/shabby I will not buy in it. if I buy in it and I get poor customer service (I was once told in a centra that they did not sell breakfast rolls before 08:30 on a weekday) then I will never go back again. TBH I rarely notice the brand name and what I remember is decor/hygiene/customer service and price in that order.

di11on

I would say that it wouldn't matter to me which of the big 4 it was, but I would probably care that it was one of the big 4 (not any one in particular).

As a case in point, the nearest village to us has a Sentra... yes, you got it, Sentra with a capital S :-) Needless to say, I don't think their name over the door is doing anything for them :-)

The main reason it would matter to me is that from experience, franchise stores seem to be cleaner and crisper, laid out better and more professional looking - that's the perception I have.

shoutman

I agree, as said its more about the appearance then the name. Can I ask where abouts is your uniit? And are there many other of the big four around?

Pasodobel

Hi DubTony

IMO the name is an important aspect when attracting passing custom i.e custom outside the locality. If I'm in an unknown location I know can bank on a Spar....etc having what I want. If you believe a large % of your business will be generated by this sort of trade then a brand name is important IMO. However I don't think ppl really differentiate between them, as in it doesn't make a difference what one you pick, it's the same stuff/same quality deli and hot food in all these stores.

I know "food fair" are a good up and coming store in this area

delllat

i always avoid c stores that only employ 1 race of people

a few city centre shops are guilty of this in my opinion

its basically a lower level of the "cronyism" that goes on in a lot of larger irish companies where all the staff are brothers,cousins,friends,associates etc

one inn particular has about 6-8 indian floor staff,indian manager,indian security guard ,indian deli staff etc

the staff have changed a few times inn the couple of years when i lived above the shop and never has a white/black/chinese person worked there

dont tell me its a coincidence..............

Bandara

delllat wrote: »

i always avoid c stores that only employ 1 race of people

a few city centre shops are guilty of this in my opinion

its basically a lower level of the "cronyism" that goes on in a lot of larger irish companies where all the staff are brothers,cousins,friends,associates etc

one inn particular has about 6-8 indian floor staff,indian manager,indian security guard ,indian deli staff etc

the staff have changed a few times inn the couple of years when i lived above the shop and never has a white/black/chinese person worked there

dont tell me its a coincidence..............

By that rationale I presume you also avoid c stores with only Irish people working in them then?

shoutman

delllat wrote: »

i always avoid c stores that only employ 1 race of people

a few city centre shops are guilty of this in my opinion

its basically a lower level of the "cronyism" that goes on in a lot of larger irish companies where all the staff are brothers,cousins,friends,associates etc

one inn particular has about 6-8 indian floor staff,indian manager,indian security guard ,indian deli staff etc

the staff have changed a few times inn the couple of years when i lived above the shop and never has a white/black/chinese person worked there

dont tell me its a coincidence..............

WTF? Do you have something against foreigners or just when its only the same race?

Why do you care id nepotism is occuring at your local shop?

GerardKeating

DubTony wrote: »

How important is it to you which name a c-store hs over the door. I've been a bit entrenched in my opinion that you need to have one of the big 4 to have any credibility. They are Centra, Spar, Londis and Mace. However there are a few others out there and I'd like to guage opinion. The others are Daybreak, XL Stop and Shop, Gala (Vivo is gone as BWG took over and are rebranding as Mace where they can).

Costcutter is another one.

It alll depends on the kind of trade you expect to get, and how much repeat business you expect and what other stores are competing.

Personally the brand of the store does not matter to much, as long as the store has what i want and looks well maintained.

the_syco

I'd goto Spar, as I know they'll have what I want. All Spars usually have the same products, so I know what to get.

delllat

shoutman wrote: »

WTF? Do you have something against foreigners or just when its only the same race?

Why do you care id nepotism is occuring at your local shop?

well i can shop where i feel like and thats just how i feel about that shop in particular
theyre charging irish prices yet only employing their own kind

im not going to support that

its basically racism in reverse

we cant do it to them so they shouldnt be allowed do it to us

shoutman

delllat wrote: »

well i can shop where i feel like and thats just how i feel about that shop in particular
theyre charging irish prices yet only employing their own kind

im not going to support that

its basically racism in reverse

we cant do it to them so they shouldnt be allowed do it to us

You should ring the Adrian Kennedy phone show on FM104, he would love you.

Also where can I subscribe to your newsletter and/or pamphlet?

padz

what about putting your own name on it? i love the old shops, go for a mini tesco

sm.org

Personally I'm only concerned with price/quality/hygine in that order. I generally avoid Centra and Spar as they're generally on the expensive side.

From a personal side I dont like either of them because of their Starbucks style business model , flood the market, squeeze out the local competition, etc .

Bandara

delllat wrote: »

well i can shop where i feel like and thats just how i feel about that shop in particular
theyre charging irish prices yet only employing their own kind

im not going to support that

its basically racism in reverse

we cant do it to them so they shouldnt be allowed do it to us

DublinWriter

First off, I'd have to ask you, are you feckin' mad?

Most people now are not into convenience, they're into cheap. The Spars, Centras and Daybreaks are tarnished brands as far as I can see. You should really analyse your catchment area.

Also remember that if you operate one of these franchises that you will be handing a lot of control over the operator. The son of a neighbour operated a local branded c-store and he was always under fierce pressure to sell certain lines at a loss to himself, especially around Christmas.

Bandara

DublinWriter wrote: »

First off, I'd have to ask you, are you feckin' mad?

Most people now are not into convenience, they're into cheap. The Spars, Centras and Daybreaks are tarnished brands as far as I can see. You should really analyse your catchment area.

Also remember that if you operate one of these franchises that you will be handing a lot of control over the operator. The son of a neighbour operated a local branded c-store and he was always under fierce pressure to sell certain lines at a loss to himself, especially around Christmas.

With respect, thats not correct. I've owned and franchised quite a few C-stores over the past 12 years and have never ever been made to do anything I didn't want to do.

If Spar or Centra tell me to do 'xyz' and it doesn't suit me I tell them where to go. As do all the other people I know in the trade, I have never,ever, ever sold anything at a loss and neither have I ever seen any of the symbol groups ask anyone to do so. The suggestion of it is ludricious, as is the idea that the retailer would agree to it. I'm sure Dubtony and the other retailers will confirm this. Your friend was allowing himself tobe bullied and by the sounds of it has no backround in the business otherwise he'd have told them to 'F' off (and he'd have said it as blunt as that as well).

Convenience stores will always be required, and the demise of them is greatly overstated. There are ones in areas hugely flooded with stores that are being slaughtered by the slowdown. But the well run modern stores in good locations are still making excellent profits. They may not be making the 150k they were makign the last 7 or 8 years but they are still clearing 100k comfortably enough. When people are driving home from work at 7pm and want a frozen pizza and milk for the house they are still going to the convenience store, or at least the percentage of them that are not is so small i have not even noticed it.

My own stores are down about 8% on last year, I have cut wages to keep my wages budgets in line with this but margin will still drop by 1.5% or so as a result, so instead of retaining 9% I'll retain 7.5%.

Its still extremely lucrative and if anything the slow down in the insanity of the past years means i'm looking around even more to expand into other businesses as my time is required less and less in the current sites.

My own brother took control of an excellently located convenience store a few days ago, immediately he will be earning in excess of 150k a year, and thats being very conservative.

Yes the sh!te and dross will eb weeded out but if your know what your doing and have a located good site its a superb business.

DublinWriter

Hammertime wrote: »

With respect, thats not correct. I've owned and franchised quite a few C-stores over the past 12 years and have never ever been made to do anything I didn't want to do.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to sound factious, but with all that experience, why do you need to come on the interweb and ask randomers of their opinion?

Bandara

DublinWriter wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm not trying to sound factious, but with all that experience, why do you need to come on the interweb and ask randomers of their opinion?

Where have I asked anyone for their opinion on anything?

DubTony

Jaysus, what happened to me thread? Everyone's giving out. So, we're agreed, it's DayBreak then, is it?

Bandara

DubTony wrote: »

Jaysus, what happened to me thread? Everyone's giving out. So, we're agreed, it's DayBreak then, is it?

lol

on a serious note Tony what about the XL concept?

I'd much rather BWG than Musgraves

murphaph

what makes a good location for a c store?

Kine

I must say, most people have made the points I would have made, but I'll add them anyway:

1) I avoid SPAR like the plague, and that's just because they are damned expensive for the convenience items I try to buy there (Bag of Minstrels for example....was about 70c more than other places.
2) However, as they are "convenience stores", some times it's more than convenient to hit them...which I hate, but I'm damned if I'm driving a 30 minute round trip to go to Tesco!

I presonally wouldn't be motivated by brand, I suppose I'd go for the cleaner looking shop (I dunno if anyone has seen the O'Briens Off License opposite Dunnes in the Beacon development...so shiny...can't resist...going there...)

DubTony

murphaph wrote: »

what makes a good location for a c store?

That's the great question. In my opinion it's all about complimentary businesses and services in the area, a good amount of housing helps a lot. And don't forget passing trade. S the simple answer is location, and then, of course, making it work.

To give you an idea, my old man bought a 600sq.ft. independent shop in 1988 for £68,000. Next to it was a pub, a chipper, a community information centre, and a bakery which later became a fruit and veg shop. There was a church and a park directly across the road, and a few schools within spitting distance. 100 yards away was another shop, a credit union, a second hand car dealer, a butcher and several small businesses in a laneway behind those. The shop was on a road that connects 2 of the major roads into the city. The immediate catchment area had about 3,000 houses. It was simply an excellent location. However it wasn't until 2000 that it began to really achieve it's potential. We extended and revamped and within 3 years had trebled turnover. The franchise we went with was, without a doubt, the very best one for the location at the time.

We ran wages at 8% of turnover. Rent was a paltry 1.5% and the audited gross profit was 20%. Pretty good for a shop that kept 3 cigarette companies in business all on it's own.
It was sold in 2005 for a figure that would make most c-store owners drool. I didn't see much of it.

If anyone can guess the exact shop, I'll donate a tenner to some sort of charity thing they run around here.

If this deal falls through I'l be looking for a job. See above for my CV. Be warned, I don't come cheap.

Bandara

murphaph wrote: »

what makes a good location for a c store?

A very working class rough area with loads of scumbags around. The margins in a shop like that is fantastic, they do their weekly shopping in the local Spar.

DubTony

Hammertime wrote: »

A very working class rough area with loads of scumbags around. The margins in a shop like that is fantastic, they do their weekly shopping in the local Spar.

The margins need to be fantastic in a shop like that. Increased security costs, cctv monitoring, more staff pulling sickies more often than one would expect resulting in overtime payments (or do it yourself :mad:), and the odd "breakage" all take away from the bottom line.
We lost 3-4% p.a. in shrinkage. I know, sick. But then it wasn't unusual for someone to come in and help themselves to €60 or €70 worth of rashers a couple of times a month, or scumbag staff sweethearting and helping themselves ("she seemed nice when I hired her" :rolleyes:). Then there was the odd fellah jumping the counter and teaching himself how to use the till. Those bastards always took well above minimum wage for their 2 minutes work. And don't forget the guns ... jesus, the guns. *sigh* I do miss all the action.

delllat

Hammertime wrote: »

thats not clever.......its just gay......

shoutman

delllat wrote: »

thats not clever.......its just gay......

Can one of the mods not ban this clown?

delllat

shoutman wrote: »

Can one of the mods not ban this clown?

diggin it deeper....;)

Sonnenblumen

Hammertime wrote: »

A very working class rough area with loads of scumbags around. The margins in a shop like that is fantastic, they do their weekly shopping in the local Spar.

Wow, what an attitude!

If I can I avoid C-Stores often for the reasons evident in many sentiments on this thread. Any chance you'll post your list of stores and I'll make a particular effort to do so?

DubTony

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Wow, what an attitude!

If I can I avoid C-Stores often for the reasons evident in many sentiments on this thread. Any chance you'll post your list of stores and I'll make a particular effort to do so?

Sonnenblumen, the fact is he's right. The best location for a c-store is a working class area. And by their very nature there are lots of scumbags. However, as I pointed out, there are extra costs involved.

Maybe you could outline the reasons that you personally avoid c-stores. It might help those among us who run them to see where we might be going wrong.

While you're thinking about that, consider this. You might be happy to give your money for your groceries to British and German chain stores. That's your right. It's also your right, and you may be happy to, spend 10 minutes looking for parking, 15 minutes walking around looking for the 5 items you want, another 10 minutes queing at a till and another 5 minutes getting your car out of the car park. And while you're at it, they'll very kindly let you pack your own bag. In some stores they'll even allow you to scan your own items and pay a machine while the thing shouts at you to scan the item again or put the items on the scale.

Don't forget that your local c-store more than likely started out as a small independent retailer working with his family to bring a service to the community and make a living while working 70+ hours a week. Due to pressures from supermarkets, below cost selling etc., he was forced to develop his store and join a group (Spar, Centra etc.) to give him a better chance in the most competitive business environment in the country.

What business are you in?

Bandara

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Wow, what an attitude!

If I can I avoid C-Stores often for the reasons evident in many sentiments on this thread. Any chance you'll post your list of stores and I'll make a particular effort to do so?

Its not an attitude its a fact, and whats the problem with it? Scumbags are everywhere in the working class areas and the disadvantaged areas.
Take a drive through Ballymun and drive through Foxrock. Count the number of junkies and lowlifes in each place, then come back and tell me which area has more.

I'll then tell you which area is far more profitable to have a store in, we can compare answers, I'm quite willing to have a large bet that we get the same answer.

Sonnenblumen

DubTony wrote: »

Sonnenblumen, the fact is he's right. The best location for a c-store is a working class area. And by their very nature there are lots of scumbags. However, as I pointed out, there are extra costs involved.

Maybe you could outline the reasons that you personally avoid c-stores. It might help those among us who run them to see where we might be going wrong.

While you're thinking about that, consider this. You might be happy to give your money for your groceries to British and German chain stores. That's your right. It's also your right, and you may be happy to, spend 10 minutes looking for parking, 15 minutes walking around looking for the 5 items you want, another 10 minutes queing at a till and another 5 minutes getting your car out of the car park. And while you're at it, they'll very kindly let you pack your own bag. In some stores they'll even allow you to scan your own items and pay a machine while the thing shouts at you to scan the item again or put the items on the scale.

Don't forget that your local c-store more than likely started out as a small independent retailer working with his family to bring a service to the community and make a living while working 70+ hours a week. Due to pressures from supermarkets, below cost selling etc., he was forced to develop his store and join a group (Spar, Centra etc.) to give him a better chance in the most competitive business environment in the country.

What business are you in?

IMO most of the current C-stores have nothing or very little in common with the traditional family grocers. C-stores might offer the potential of a wider range albeit inflated prices, but the true values ie customer care, customer respect, hygiene, staff morale etc have all been grossly neglected in pursuit of a few extra €. In fact I would say were it not for a mildly vigilant H&S inspectorate the situation would be much worse.

IMO your values are in the sewer, otherwise why would earn your livelihood from 'scumbags' ? Anyone who refers to customers as scumbags deserves no respect and certainly little credibility. Who are you to judge, on the contrary, you take their money!

Shameful really.

BTW I'm no bleeding heart, but if I dispised something I would have nothing to do with it, especially for a handful of €. I am fortunately in a business where respect is still enjoyed and highly valued on both sides of the transaction.

Sonnenblumen

Hammertime wrote: »

Its not an attitude its a fact, and whats the problem with it? Scumbags are everywhere in the working class areas and the disadvantaged areas.
Take a drive through Ballymun and drive through Foxrock. Count the number of junkies and lowlifes in each place, then come back and tell me which area has more.

I'll then tell you which area is far more profitable to have a store in, we can compare answers, I'm quite willing to have a large bet that we get the same answer.

Big Rats feed on little rats.

Bandara

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

IMO most of the current C-stores have nothing or very little in common with the traditional family grocers. C-stores might offer the potential of a wider range albeit inflated prices, but the true values ie customer care, customer respect, hygiene, staff morale etc have all been grossly neglected in pursuit of a few extra €. In fact I would say were it not for a mildly vigilant H&S inspectorate the situation would be much worse.

IMO your values are in the sewer, otherwise why would earn your livelihood from 'scumbags' ? Anyone who refers to customers as scumbags deserves no respect and certainly little credibility. Who are you to judge, on the contrary, you take their money!

Shameful really.

BTW I'm no bleeding heart, but if I dispised something I would have nothing to do with it, especially for a handful of €. I am fortunately in a business where respect is still enjoyed and highly valued on both sides of the transaction.

Jesus you really know nothing about this do you?

if you think "Tommys Corner shop" is either cleaner or more 'caring' towards customers and staff than a Centra or Spar etc then your just on another planet.

Hygiene levels in symbol groups are INFINITELY more superior than the independants. Spar for example have 28 audits a year of stores CARRIED OUT BY EXCELLENCE IRELAND and other independant quality control groups. On top of that you have further visits from the Health Board.

You need to get your precious head out of the sand and realise that there are lots of scumbags in this world. But I'm sure when a junkie walks into your business you treat him with courtsey and leave him to browse thru your stock. Not to mention the scumbags who threaten your staff, you leave them alone too because we are all Gods Children after all.

As for big rats feeding on little rats is that supposed to be some retarded insult?

Grow up, your talking about things you know nothing about, when you get stabbed in the neck with a syringe by a junkie because you stopped him punching a 18 year old polish girl for the second time because she asked him not to steal a tray of beer then come and pontificate.

I don't give a toss who spends their money with me, the more the better, if that makes me a bad person then boo hoo. But when they step in my stores they are treated with professionalism befitting the circumstance in a immaculate store with top level customer service by staff who have been working there since the day it opened.

DubTony

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

IMO most of the current C-stores have nothing or very little in common with the traditional family grocers. C-stores might offer the potential of a wider range albeit inflated prices, but the true values ie customer care, customer respect, hygiene, staff morale etc have all been grossly neglected in pursuit of a few extra €. In fact I would say were it not for a mildly vigilant H&S inspectorate the situation would be much worse.

IMO your values are in the sewer, otherwise why would earn your livelihood from 'scumbags' ? Anyone who refers to customers as scumbags deserves no respect and certainly little credibility. Who are you to judge, on the contrary, you take their money!
Shameful really.
BTW I'm no bleeding heart, but if I dispised something I would have nothing to do with it, especially for a handful of €. I am fortunately in a business where respect is still enjoyed and highly valued on both sides of the transaction.

I get the impression this nonsense was directed at me. Well, with all due respect to you, you've a bloody cheek. I think you're living in a little bit of a bubble. Listen up. You might learn something.

When a larger percentage of customers than one would like or expect, are prepared to buy the aforementioned rashers from the guy who stole them from your shop, in the full knowledge that they came from your shop, they are scumbags.
When your customers are prepared to leave a 3kg bag of spuds and a bag of nappies on the bottom of the buggy they're pushing, and not inform you that they have them, while they give you €8 for a pack of smokes, they are scumbags.
When a kid orders a sandwich at the deli counter and walks the long way out of the shop so he won't have to pay for it, he's a scumbag. (Most of these sandwiches are actually left, fully wrapped, on a shelf in another part of the shop, because I'm standing at the door watching the kids instead of operating a till. That sandwich goes in the bin, thats a good hygiene practice btw).

You've said that there is no customer care, bad hygiene, and no respect for customers. I think you know that you're talking out of your arse. And if you stood in front of me and told me that my staff morale was bad because of something I did, you'd be calling the cops. (You've a damned cheek) The fact is that when things are bad, my staff ALWAYS get paid before me. I pay all my staff the legally required rate or better. When the min wage came in I had staff who were afraid their wages would be reduced to match it.

Re the "mildly vigilant H&S inspectorate" and your "much worse situation". Do you really think that every c-store in the country has shoddy hygiene practices. After the manager (if there is one) usually the next highest paid staff members are the deli staff. Your H&S inspectorate probably shows up once a year for an "inspection". The standard of these inspections, in the main, verges on incompetence. Most of these people couldn't see a hazard if it hit them in the face. If the standard of hygiene is so bad in so may c-stores, why on earth don't we have epidemics of food poisoning?

When my father bought a shop in 1988, he didn't know that the area was filled with scumbags. When I took over the running of it, I didn't treat my customers with disrespect, If I had I wouldn't have increased sales from the original £6,000 a week to £16,000 a week. If, when we joined a symbol group, and spent the equivalent of 2 and a half years payroll on it, more out of necessity than any other reason, the place had been filthy, or the customers had been treated with anything but the highest of respect, do you think turnover would have increased by a further 300% in 3 years? I had 3 staff employed with me for 15 years. They were honest, happy and well paid, in comparison with how some others in the business pay and treat their staff. Do you think that if they'd been treated badly or morale was low they'd have stuck around? I went through dozens of others who gave goods to their friends for nothing, stole goods while working, and even stole money from the till. In all that time, the only one I ever went through a full prosecution with was the one who stole money from her fellow staff members. Stealing from me was one thing, but stealing from her workmates was despicable.

Not all my customers are scumbags, most of them are very nice people. The fact is, a good location for a c-store is a working class area. The people of these areas spend more of their disposable income in their local shops, so making them good locations. There is also the fact that (and I stated this earlier) there are more scumbags in these areas than more affluent areas.

Prices in most c-stores are generally higher because of economies of scale. If you had any business sense you'd see why this is. Rent for a small premises works out higher based on the fact that it turns over less per foot than your average supermarket. Staffing per sq. ft. is also higher and so results in a higher percentage of turnover paid in wages.

As for your last comment regarding respect being enjoyed on both sides of the transaction, I put it to you that you obviously don't deal directly with the public. Maybe you should try emerging from your little cocoon sometime and experience what it's like out there in the big bad world.

Sonnenblumen

you two seem to have a great need to defend by offending others? Let me simply say with full confidence that I have probably seen more of business than you ever will, my turnover is higher, my average growth rates higher, my costs are significantly higher, the skill sets of my employees much more so, I employ more staff and I pay significantly more. I also respect more and despite working in a more regulated environment, where controls/inspections tend to 'lag', we are well respected as leaders by many of our peers and competitors in our market sector. You can take all the money to the bank, but if you've got no manners, no respect you're nothing. I learned that as a kid. Far from being a fool, ignorant or disrespectful, I actually get on with many. Why? Many reasons: pride, skill, business acumen, but not least a strong sense of respect for the individual, employee and above all clients.

Self serving arrogance will probably prevent you from grasping these fundamental points which were intended to tackle the flaws in your disposition/arguments.

For someone who claims to deal with the public, your interpersonal skills are almost primitive.

Bandara

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

you two seem to have a great need to defend by offending others? Let me simply say with full confidence that I have probably seen more of business than you ever will, my turnover is higher, my average growth rates higher, my costs are significantly higher, the skill sets of my employees much more so, I employ more staff and I pay significantly more. I also respect more and despite working in a more regulated environment, where controls/inspections tend to 'lag', we are well respected as leaders by many of our peers and competitors in our market sector. You can take all the money to the bank, but if you've got no manners, no respect you're nothing. I learned that as a kid. Far from being a fool, ignorant or disrespectful, I actually get on with many. Why? Many reasons: pride, skill, business acumen, but not least a strong sense of respect for the individual, employee and above all clients.

Self serving arrogance will probably prevent you from grasping these fundamental points which were intended to tackle the flaws in your disposition/arguments.

For someone who claims to deal with the public, your interpersonal skills are almost primitive.

LOL

Just LOL. I'm not even getting to this here but Jesus your clueless. You have no idea what myself or Dubtony do for a living or what business interests we have yet your assume "that I have probably seen more of business than you ever will, my turnover is higher". Well my friend let me assure your its not, its not even a close.

Jog on my friend, jog on in that bubble of yours.

DubTony

you two seem to have a great need to defend by offending others?

What the hell are you talking about?

Let me simply say with full confidence that I have probably seen more of business than you ever will, my turnover is higher, my average growth rates higher, my costs are significantly higher, .

:rolleyes:

the skill sets of my employees much more so, I employ more staff and I pay significantly more

So now you're slagging off the educational level of my employees, and blowing off about how many and how much? Are you for real?

You can take all the money to the bank, but if you've got no manners, no respect you're nothing. I learned that as a kid. Far from being a fool, ignorant or disrespectful, I actually get on with many. Why? Many reasons: pride, skill, business acumen, but not least a strong sense of respect for the individual, employee and above all clients.

You obviously didn't read anything I wrote, or something ...

Self serving arrogance will probably prevent you from grasping these fundamental points which were intended to tackle the flaws in your disposition/arguments.

WTF? Are you claiming some sort of moral high ground here ?

For someone who claims to deal with the public, your interpersonal skills are almost primitive.

And finally we get to insults !!!

Good Luck!

PullMyFinger!

[QUOTE=DubTony;59040500in the most competitive business environment in the country.
[/QUOTE]

I would argue that the coffee shop or Pub trade would take that title.

itsonlyme

DubTony wrote: »

I'm looking for opinions here lads. I'm close to doing a deal on a c-store and am in a slightly precarious position. I'm doing this under-funded. :eek:

I've spoken to 2 Symbol groups, with a view to getting them to cough up the cash to renovate the shop in return for my business. Here's my question.

How important is it to you which name a c-store hs over the door.
I've been a bit entrenched in my opinion that you need to have one of the big 4 to have any credibility. They are Centra, Spar, Londis and Mace. However there are a few others out there and I'd like to guage opinion. The others are Daybreak, XL Stop and Shop, Gala (Vivo is gone as BWG took over and are rebranding as Mace where they can).

So, purely from a customers point of view, does the name mean anything
to you? Would you stop at a new Centra store and by-pass a Spar or Daybreak? Does it matter? Thanks

Hi Tony,

The fascia board you decide to put above your shop will be determined by the shop weekly turnover and obviously your budget.

SPAR & CENTRA & LONDIS are the market leaders in the c store business and to be honest the shop fit out costs will be anything from 220k to 350k for the average 1500 sq ft store excluding an off licence. Your turnover would want to be in the region of 40k plus a week exc agencies sales.

XL & DAYBREAK & GALA tend to appeal to retailers with turnover less than 25k per week. The fit out costs of these branded stores would be substantially less.

All the symbol group give a "contribution" towards the fit out cost. This figure varies from group to group.

You need to look at your location and see what competition is around you as this will have a factor too.

For generating, developing and growing your business in the future the fascia board is important over the door and personally for me Spar or Centra is the one to be be with. When you have a good brand behind you and you keep your shop right in terms of product range, cleanliness etc you will be on the right road to success.

Spar excel in areas of store design and product concept development. Retailer support is modest and retailer rebates are quite low.

Centra on the other hand have excellent retailer support in all disciplines, excellent retailer rebates and customers perceive Centra to be cheaper than Spar.

If budget is a determing factor XL STOP & SHOP or DAYBREAK are very flexible and substantially cheaper to get up and running.

Hope this hepls you.

MrPillowTalk

itsonlyme wrote: »

Hi Tony,

The fascia board you decide to put above your shop will be determined by the shop weekly turnover and obviously your budget.

SPAR & CENTRA & LONDIS are the market leaders in the c store business and to be honest the shop fit out costs will be anything from 220k to 350k for the average 1500 sq ft store excluding an off licence. Your turnover would want to be in the region of 40k plus a week exc agencies sales.

XL & DAYBREAK & GALA tend to appeal to retailers with turnover less than 25k per week. The fit out costs of these branded stores would be substantially less.

All the symbol group give a "contribution" towards the fit out cost. This figure varies from group to group.

You need to look at your location and see what competition is around you as this will have a factor too.

For generating, developing and growing your business in the future the fascia board is important over the door and personally for me Spar or Centra is the one to be be with. When you have a good brand behind you and you keep your shop right in terms of product range, cleanliness etc you will be on the right road to success.

Spar excel in areas of store design and product concept development. Retailer support is modest and retailer rebates are quite low.

Centra on the other hand have excellent retailer support in all disciplines, excellent retailer rebates and customers perceive Centra to be cheaper than Spar.

If budget is a determing factor XL STOP & SHOP or DAYBREAK are very flexible and substantially cheaper to get up and running.

Hope this hepls you.

Do c store owners really pay over 200k for fit out? This seems very high for whats involved, if they are regularly paying that I may need to look at trying for some of that contract work.

Bandara

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Do c store owners really pay over 200k for fit out? This seems very high for whats involved, if they are regularly paying that I may need to look at trying for some of that contract work.

yes they do, a decent Spar is 350k+

Its a closed shop though (excuse the pun), Dolan brothers pretty much have it wrapped up.

DubTony

It's a closed shop alright. For the simple reason that the symbol group hands the retailer a list of "you must buy from" names. This is for absolutely everything. Shelving, refrigeration, coffee machines, point of sale, etc., all the way down to buckets and mops. This has the effect of inflating the price as kick-backs are a big part of the business. Am I complaining? Hell, yeah. At the end of the day, it's my money that'll be sitting on that shop floor. I see the symbols as a necessary evil. I'm seriously of the opinion that you need the name over the door simply to be credible and to get the business off the ground. DubTony's Corner Shop or Hammertime's Filling Station doesn't have the same attraction to the masses as CENTRA or SPAR, and so the premises will not perform as well as it should and will almost definitely take longer to establish. Having said that, a good retailer will overcome the lack of a franchise sign over the door in time, but it's the crucial couple of years starting off that make the name so important.

As an independent I could buy most equipment cheaper from the same supplier. They won't do it, of course, as they run the very serious risk of being blacklisted. As an independent I'd be free to go into the marketplace and do deals with manufacturers, wholesalers and distributors that can make my business more profitable. I can arrange better credit terms and eventually volume discounts and rebates that aren't split with the franchisor. Having said that, as a franchise retailer I have the comfort of knowing that I can open accounts with almost every manufacturer and distributor in the counrtry and they are guaranteed payment by the symbol group, saving me the hassle of arranging personal and bank-backed guarantees (with a symbol group you give one guarantee and there's one or maybe two weekly direct debits, instead of having 30 or 40 companies raid your bank account every month.). Credit terms are generally tighter but buying loyalty is demanded by these guys, to ensure they get their fair share of rebates and discounts. And "punishments" are in place where loyalty is broken.

There are a lot of swings and roundabouts. But at the end of the day, there's a definite plus in joining a group, albeit it, in some cases, an expensive one.

DubTony

All the symbol group give a "contribution" towards the fit out cost. This figure varies from group to group.

While I was paying through the nose with franchise fees, advertising surcharges, warehouse charges and technical support, all the while helping to develop the Centra brand in my area, I got nothing from Musgrave. That was 9 years ago. Things must have changed.

Spar excel in areas of store design and product concept development. Retailer support is modest and retailer rebates are quite low.

Centra on the other hand have excellent retailer support in all disciplines, excellent retailer rebates and customers perceive Centra to be cheaper than Spar.

I can agree with you on the Centra point. However, I feel this is really people specific and location specific to a degree. I had a real difficulty in getting the right people into my store who weren't trying to convince me that I needed to buy some more equipment or revam the place (we're talking about pre-2005, I don't know what they're like now)

I don't know about Spar, but I suspect that the lower rebates you refer to and have a lot to do with structures inside the organisation.

If budget is a determing factor XL STOP & SHOP or DAYBREAK are very flexible and substantially cheaper to get up and running.

And unfortunately, imo they have very little standing or recognition in the public psyche.

Thanks