Why weren't the motorways re-numbered?

JayeL

Just something that occured to me recently. I know it's too late but was there any particular reason why our new motorways couldn't have been re-numbered in a more logical order.

The road from Dublin to Cork is essentially a route off the main Dublin-Limerick road. And the Dublin-Galway road is off the main Dublin-Sligo road. The new motorways follow this logic and numbering.

But why couldn't they have taken this opportunity to re-order the roads in a more sensible fashion. I'd have started by calling the new motorway from Dublin to Cork the M5, with a slip for an M6 Limerick road. Equally, the M4 could have been be the road all the way from Lucan to Galway, with the M8 branching off at Kinnegad to Sligo (N8 from Mullingar, obv) and the N9 branching off at Longford to Westport.

The branch from the M5 Cork road to Waterford could be the M7.

This re-numbering would be a more logical layout of the routes from the M50 (they currently go 1, 2, 3, 4, 7) and would be a better reflection of the demographic importance of each route from M4 onwards.

Surely there's nothing tying us to the route numbers we've had since the 70's?

Del2005

Could you imagine the chaos that would happen if overnight the M7 became the M2 and so on. People know what road leads where and all the directions for everywhere in the country are written for the current road layout. Also it would cost a lot of money to replace all the road signs with correct information for no real added benefit other then to have Cork on an M2, which is where demographics would have it.

The way they are now is logical if you look at the whole map of Ireland not just the M50 section.

And I'm not too sure why road numbers should designate the size of the destination, and if they did we'd have all the low numbers in Dublin and double or treble digit roads everywhere else:D Since most of the towns in Dublin are bigger then cities in the country.

medoc

Del2005 wrote: »

Could you imagine the chaos that would happen if overnight the M7 became the M2 and so on. People know what road leads where and all the directions for everywhere in the country are written for the current road layout. Also it would cost a lot of money to replace all the road signs with correct information for no real added benefit other then to have Cork on an M2, which is where demographics would have it.

The way they are now is logical if you look at the whole map of Ireland not just the M50 section.

And I'm not too sure why road numbers should designate the size of the destination, and if they did we'd have all the low numbers in Dublin and double or treble digit roads everywhere else:D Since most of the towns in Dublin are bigger then cities in the country.

It has taken so long to replace the N signs on the routes that have be "renumbered" to regional R roads it would just lead to more confusion for tourists and non locals. The present system is logical enough from north east to south east. More pressing than what number either the dublin to limerick or cork road is, is the type of junction at that point.

D.L.R.

If you think the Republic's system is illogical, take look at NI or GB's systems. Our system is very simple and considered, compared to these.

The GB numbering system was developed by the AA (I believe) in the 1900's, it just started with the "A1" as the most important road "A2" the second etc, It's now done by regional "zones" each zone having a number range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_road_numbering_scheme

Buffman

JayeL wrote: »

Just something that occured to me recently. I know it's too late but was there any particular reason why our new motorways couldn't have been re-numbered in a more logical order.

......

This re-numbering would be a more logical layout of the routes from the M50 (they currently go 1, 2, 3, 4, 7) and would be a better reflection of the demographic importance of each route from M4 onwards.

Surely there's nothing tying us to the route numbers we've had since the 70's?

What would be the point in renaming them? If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
The current system seems pretty logical to me. The main N routes(1-11)were numbered anti-clockwise from north to south, the exception being the N10, which is on the 'wrong' side of the N9 for simplicity. So it was logical for them to name the Motorways after the N roads they were replacing. Your proposed system seems overly complicated. And expensive!!

Victor

Buffman wrote: »

The current system seems pretty logical to me. The main N routes(1-11)were numbered anti-clockwise from north to south, the exception being the N10, which is on the 'wrong' side of the N9 for simplicity. So it was logical for them to name the Motorways after the N roads they were replacing. Your proposed system seems overly complicated. And expensive!!

In pictures.

rekrow

JayeL wrote: »

Just something that occured to me recently. I know it's too late but was there any particular reason why our new motorways couldn't have been re-numbered in a more logical order.

The road from Dublin to Cork is essentially a route off the main Dublin-Limerick road. And the Dublin-Galway road is off the main Dublin-Sligo road. The new motorways follow this logic and numbering.

But why couldn't they have taken this opportunity to re-order the roads in a more sensible fashion. I'd have started by calling the new motorway from Dublin to Cork the M5, with a slip for an M6 Limerick road. Equally, the M4 could have been be the road all the way from Lucan to Galway, with the M8 branching off at Kinnegad to Sligo (N8 from Mullingar, obv) and the N9 branching off at Longford to Westport.

The branch from the M5 Cork road to Waterford could be the M7.

This re-numbering would be a more logical layout of the routes from the M50 (they currently go 1, 2, 3, 4, 7) and would be a better reflection of the demographic importance of each route from M4 onwards.

Surely there's nothing tying us to the route numbers we've had since the 70's?

I think the existing system is quite logical. It starts at the M1 heading north and goes anti clockwise to the N11 heading South. What does the your system offer. The idea of demographic importance seems a bit irrelevent and elitest. What would happen if the the population of Waterford overtook Limerick? Would that be cause for another renumbering? The route numbering system is Dublin centric but then it is the city with the most national routes served. From a signage perspective in Dublin in makes good sense. It would be a bit like renumbering the junctions on the M50 in terms of which were busiest. Most people could take a guess a which ones were busier. I think the road numbering system is one of the few things that was done right in the country. Money would be better spent improving the signage on regional roads.

Also how would you manage the renumbering? All the new intercity motorways are being built in sections that tie back into the existing infrastructure. So how would you manage the transition? Would it not be more confusing to Leave cork on the M5 rejoin the N8 at Fermoy, back on the M5 at Mitchelstown, back off at Culahill, back on at Portlaoise?

marmurr1916

JayeL wrote: »

This re-numbering would be a more logical layout of the routes from the M50 (they currently go 1, 2, 3, 4, 7) and would be a better reflection of the demographic importance of each route from M4 onwards.

Routes connecting towns around Ireland with Dublin are numbered from 1 to 11, starting with 1 (Dublin - border north of Dundalk) and continuing in an anti-clockwise manner.

The remaining route numbers of the original 25 national primary routes are also numbered in a more-or-less anti-clockwise manner:

12 from Monaghan to border near Armagh
13 from border near Derry to Letterkenny
14 from Letterkenny to near Lifford
15 from Lifford to Sligo
16 from Sligo to border (in direction of Enniskillen)
17 from Sligo to Galway
18 originally from Galway to Limerick, now from Claregalway to Limerick
19 originally from Hurler's Cross to Shannon Airport
20 from Limerick to Cork
21 originally branched off N20 at Patrickswell to Tralee
22 Tralee to Cork
23 Branches off N22 at Farranfore to Castleisland
24 Limerick to Waterford
25 Cork to Rosslare Harbour

The newer national primary routes also follow a roughly anti-clockwise pattern, although the N26 (Ballina - Swinford) should have been the Cork city to Cork Airport route with consequent changes to all the other route numbers (the existing N26 to have become the N33).

The national secondary route numbering system also originally followed a roughly anti-clockwise pattern up to the N80.

It seems that the N81, N82 and N83 were added to the network as a result of parish-pump politics (they should all have remained as regional routes) although later additions (N85, N86, N87) made some sense.

However, the justification for upgrading part of the then R200 to the exisiting N87 has been removed with the re-opening of Aghalane Bridge connecting Cavan and Enniskillen via the N3/A509 route.

IMO, the existing N87 should be re-classified as a regional route (back to R200) and the N87 number should be re-allocated to another route in the north-west.

Perhaps the R232 between the N15 just outside Donegal Town and Pettigoe, leading to the A35/A32 route to Enniskillen?

Or maybe part or all of the existing R238 (Inishowen Peninsula) could become the N87?

Finally, the clusters of regional road numbers also follow a broadly anti-clockwise pattern: the R1xx routes start in Dublin and spread west and north-east; the R2xx routes start in Cavan and spread north-west; the R3xx routes start in north Mayo and spread southa and into the midlands; the R4xx routes start near Mullingar and spread into other parts of the midlands; the R5xx routes cover north Munster and parts of the midlands; the R6xx routes cover south Munster; the R7xx routes cover the south-east.

R8xx and R9xx route numbers were allocated later but also follow a roughly anti-clockwise pattern, although they disrupt the R1xx to R7xx sequence.

The local Lxxxx route numbers (I've seen an Lxxxxx route number in Co. Cork) don't seem to follow any coherent pattern.

Local route numbers aside, the Irish road numbering system is probably the most logical and consistent road numbering system in the world.

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Local route numbers aside, the Irish road numbering system is probably the most logical and consistent road numbering system in the world.

Very true, other countries would do well to copy our system!!

medoc

I've always felt that when I look at a route planner map that the one thing missing from the network is a Primary route from north east to south west. Some simple improvements to the N52 from Ardee to Birr where needed ( quite a lot of stretches), and maybe incorperating the N62 to Roscrea and N33. This route could be renunbered the N33 giving a primary route from the M1 to N2, M3, N4, M6 and on to the M7

marmurr1916

medoc wrote: »

I've always felt that when I look at a route planner map that the one thing missing from the network is a Primary route from north east to south west. Some simple improvements to the N52 from Ardee to Birr where needed ( quite a lot of stretches), and maybe incorperating the N62 to Roscrea and N33. This route could be renunbered the N33 giving a primary route from the M1 to N2, M3, N4, M6 and on to the M7

It's a shame that the N12 doesn't run from Athlone to Monaghan and then onwards towards Armagh.

That would serve much the same purpose and also give a more direct connection from Galway towards Belfast.

In the long-run, whenever we can afford it, we should upgrade the N52, N80, N62 and N61 routes to provide an X-shaped link between all the major national primary routes.

Upgrading these roads would also provide alternatives to the Atlantic Corridor between Cork and Sligo and to the M50.

serfboard

medoc wrote: »

I've always felt that when I look at a route planner map that the one thing missing from the network is a Primary route from north east to south west.

N52 (Dundalk->Nenagh) + N7 (Nenagh->Limerick) + N21 (Limerick->Tralee) = "Primary route from north east to south west" ... does it not?

marmurr1916

serfboard wrote: »

N52 (Dundalk->Nenagh) + N7 (Nenagh->Limerick) + N21 (Limerick->Tralee) = "Primary route from north east to south west" ... does it not?

No. The N52 is a national secondary route.

Most of the national secondary route network is of much lower standard than than the national primary route network.

National primary routes are currently numbered from 1 to 33 plus the M50.

National secondary routes are currently numbered from 52 to 87 with some gaps where national secondary routes were upgraded to national primary routes (eg: N79 became N30).

medoc

serfboard wrote: »

N52 (Dundalk->Nenagh) + N7 (Nenagh->Limerick) + N21 (Limerick->Tralee) = "Primary route from north east to south west" ... does it not?

It might be a popular route from ne to sw but is a national secondry road. Long streaches are in poor quality, although a lot of improvement has occured in the last few years. If the N52 was upgraded to a primary route it might be in line for investment sooner than it would be with its current designation. Some simple improvements are all that would be required (deacent Single carraigeway with hard shoulder like between Kilcormac and Birr). The Tullamore bypass is already under construction.

icdg

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It seems that the N81, N82 and N83 were added to the network as a result of parish-pump politics (they should all have remained as regional routes) although later additions (N85, N86, N87) made some sense.

The N82 makes the least sense of all the national route network IMO - its a private road through an industrial estate! (Although that is the current N82 - the original one was a rural route except through Saggart).

Personally I would give its number to the R113 or R136, both of which are far better roads (both dual carriageways!) doing the same job (linking the N7 and N81) within a few miles of the N82