detailed drawings needed for builder?

judymoody

we have already paid our architect a substantial sum for planning drawings. he now wants to charge a further substantial sum for construction drawings, site visits etc., which will seriously impact on our budget. could a good builder work from the planning drawings or do we have to pay for detailed construction drawings?

sunnysoutheast

Unfortunately it looks like your budget didn't include two of the most important tasks of the entire build - costing and supervision.

A builder could probably give you an indicative figure based on dimensioned drawings, but a detailed price during a tender will need a full specification. Working off no detailed specification is almost a guarantee that things will fall apart later as ambiguities/assumptions etc. crop up.

You will need these construction drawings and a signatory whatever you do, it doesn't necessarily have to be the architect who did the planning work. You'll also need a BER cert.

Bear in mind, though, that if the architect was banking on getting this work or you have signed a contract it may be very difficult to get copies of the planning drawings from them if you walk away now.

SSE

RKQ

I agree with sunnysoutheast.

Planning drawings show overall dimentions. They don't usually show cavities, dpc, cill heights etc.

An Architectural Technician with PI insurance would be able to produce working drawings and stage payments. Its unlikely that the Builder would be able to price accurately without a full spec & detailed working drawings.

Hindsight is a great thing, but did you not discuss this issue with your Architect, prior to retaining him / her?

Invest in a copy of the Homebond manual, it will give you an idea of the details required. It will be of help to you in understanding construction.

judymoody

luckily, we only had an agreement with the architect up to the planning stage - however we were given to understand the rest of the process would be much cheaper and less complicated than it now appears to be! thanks for your comments.|

Slig

Planning drawings are basic enough, they show overall dimensions of the rooms, heights and levels but thats it. If an architect was to carry out full construction drawings before planning then:
A- Planner could request changes in the design
B- Planning could be refused.
Either of which would result in a waste of time that would have to be covered by the client.

Construction drawings take as much time if not more to complete, they are much more detailed but they are done under the assumption that the design is finalised. They should include, maps, floor, roof & foundation plans, detailed sections and elevations, specifications, schedules (windows, doors, fixed furniture etc.) and all the complex details needed in order for the building to be built correctly.

If you get a price from the builder from planning drawings then they will make assumptions on everything from type of insulation needed to the spec of windows and doors. Depending on the finish this could result in an almost 100% increase in the cost of the building that you will only find out about at the end of the project.

Your architect should have made you aware of this before they were appointed. It is bad form on their part if they didnt. If the building isnt too complicated (architect could have particular design solutions in mind) then you could get the construction drawings done elsewhere by an Architect, Architectural Technician or Engineer.

Scober11

Find a builder you can trust. I'd say at least half of our work is priced off "planning drawings" as opposed to detailed drawings. If your going to wheel and deal with the builder yourself it will be done of numerous meetings and most things will be thrashed out then. All you need then is an architect/engineer to sign the certs for stage payments and your off.

Poor Uncle Tom

Scober11 wrote: »

Find a builder you can trust.

Always the best option. But having worked with hundreds of builders I find that the more detailed the drawings and specification the less can go wrong.

Scober11 wrote: »

I'd say at least half of our work is priced off "planning drawings" as opposed to detailed drawings.

Depends on the drawings. I've seen planning drawings you couldn't line out the footings from, and this is only recently.

Scober11 wrote: »

All you need then is an architect/engineer to sign the certs for stage payments and your off.

I think any Technician/Architect/Engineer employed to sign off certs will be a lot more involved then you think, after all they are signing off works.

rsheehan

Hi don't know if this is any help but I just got a quote this week for Construction Drawings, supervision and sign off on mortgage at €3700 euro in Mayo.

mickdw

rsheehan wrote: »

Hi don't know if this is any help but I just got a quote this week for Construction Drawings, supervision and sign off on mortgage at €3700 euro in Mayo.

That is about the right figure for mayo. I would be charging around that for a medium to large one off house. This would include all working with all suppliers/trades as required to pull everything together.

I think a point that needs to made here is that if someone is building by direct labour, they could very well get away without detailed building drawings. Obviously, more dimensioning, and some particular details would be required throughout the build but not having an overall tender process taking place means that alot of the spec decisions are made as the build progresses and depending on how the budget is going.

If the build was complex with many different levels and roofs etc, It is critical to have a least detailed structural drawings and a wouldnt get involved in anything like this without a fully detailed drawing but if the build was a typical house with nothing out of the ordinary, well Ive seen these completed by direct labour from the planning drawings with the engineer providing advise/details as required.
With the energy efficiencys now required, A complete plan would need to be worked out prior to construction to ensure required efficiency will be reached.

archtech

mickdw wrote: »

I think a point that needs to made here is that if someone is building by direct labour, they could very well get away without detailed building drawings.

If someone is going direct labour it is all the more reason in my opinion to have detailed drawings, so everyone will know how the building is to be put together. Not ideal if the blocklayer has all the blockwork complete and doesn't build in the padstones to take the steel that the carpenter requires to support the roof now is there. Chances are the blocklayer will be finished and paid before the carpenter arrives on site.

Slig

archtech wrote: »

If someone is going direct labour it is all the more reason in my opinion to have detailed drawings, so everyone will know how the building is to be put together. Not ideal if the blocklayer has all the blockwork complete and doesn't build in the padstones to take the steel that the carpenter requires to support the roof now is there. Chances are the blocklayer will be finished and paid before the carpenter arrives on site.

Have to agree. The houses in my estate were built without construction drawings and it shows, Plumbing and electrics are the main casualties, lights were wired to wherever the electrician wanted instead of planned out beforehand.

Bitten & Hisses

What would be a fair price for construction drawings (excl supervision, etc) these days?
3500 sq feet, architect has already prepared and been paid for planning drawings and planning application.

mickdw

archtech wrote: »

If someone is going direct labour it is all the more reason in my opinion to have detailed drawings, so everyone will know how the building is to be put together. Not ideal if the blocklayer has all the blockwork complete and doesn't build in the padstones to take the steel that the carpenter requires to support the roof now is there. Chances are the blocklayer will be finished and paid before the carpenter arrives on site.

Well there is direct labour where nobody has a clue what is going on and there is direct labour where you pull everyone onto site at suitable stages to make the works flow along.
Anybody who could let the blockwork be completed on site without having consulted with Engineer and following trades re structural requirements really shouldnt be undertaking a building by direct labour.
When I say direct labour, I mean a well managed project albeit without a main contractor.

Slig

mickdw wrote: »

Well there is direct labour where nobody has a clue what is going on and there is direct labour where you pull everyone onto site at suitable stages to make the works flow along.
Anybody who could let the blockwork be completed on site without having consulted with Engineer and following trades re structural requirements really shouldnt be undertaking a building by direct labour.
When I say direct labour, I mean a well managed project albeit without a main contractor.

I am sorry but I still see the same problems. The reason construction drawings are prepared is to provide an instruction manual as to how the building is to be built. There will be areas that need to be detailed, connections betwee floors and walls, eaves, roof junctions etc.

The reason these details are drawn up is so that the blocklayer knows what they have to do and the chippy knows what he/she needs to do as there will enivetably be details that require special attention and co-opperatinon between both. Without these areas detailed out then it is literally build it and see, and the problems will only ever occur when one trade comes on to start and realises something odd has been done by the previous one.

Same with services, who will decide which walls need chasing and where? The kitchen manufacturer? the electrician? the plumber? Sure you can all meet and decide between trades what needs to be done but this can all be covered, in writing, by a set of construction drawings.
Its the same as going shopping without a list. You might end up picking up a few extras that arent needed and forget some of the essentials.

RKQ

I agree with Slig. The more detailed the drawings the more accurate the price. Also less chance that things can go wrong due to poor programming or omissions.

The new critical details (Robust details) will dictate a certain learning curve for trades on site. A good set of drawings can address these details.

pseudo-tech

I agree with all the above. Tender/ Working drawings form part of the contract the client has with the contractor. In my office, if we prepare a set of construction drawings we ask the contractor to enter into a fixed price contract. This will give the client additional reassurance and it also makes managing the project considerably easier. If a problem arrise, revert to the drawings and tender spec and nine times out of ten the answer is there. Not going with Tender/ Working drawings is short sighted.

twdc

when i do drawings for clients for planning or exempted planning - the drawings are more than sufficient so that a builder can work off them - to me some architects are just too caught up in themselves and are trying to skim more money

Poor Uncle Tom

TWDC, planning drawings ARE different from working drawings.

It is not practical to include working drawings with every application for planning permission.

Consider this, planning application with full working drawings and the LA writes out for FI changing the height of the ridge, the pitch of the roof, ratio of roof to wall, location size and type of windows and doors, overall length of fenestration, overall massing and scale of the development, location of the entrance, location of the treatment system and percolation area, planting arrangements and parking area.

Where is your working drawings then? Who picks up the tab for that one? What if it happens again? and again?

twdc

some people go overboard with working drawingsand what is needed - a ploy to fool the client - i've been in the business avery long time and have never had a builder ask for more drawings than what i issued for planning - there are many out there who do drawings for planners that builders can work off - remember its not rocket science - i mean we are talkimg about one of houses and extensions
i always include in my price any changes to be made - 95% of any change would take the most - 2hrs additional work - only a few i have had to redraw but i always make the client aware of what my fee includes - i know some so called designers would charge 500+ for a minor change - daylight robbery

sinnerboy

twdc wrote: »

some people go overboard with working drawingsand what is needed - a ploy to fool the client - i've been in the business avery long time and have never had a builder ask for more drawings than what i issued for planning - there are many out there who do drawings for planners that builders can work off - remember its not rocket science - i mean we are talkimg about one of houses and extensions
i always include in my price any changes to be made - 95% of any change would take the most - 2hrs additional work - only a few i have had to redraw but i always make the client aware of what my fee includes - i know some so called designers would charge 500+ for a minor change - daylight robbery

you will fit in just nicely here

Reality check . There are many talented and educated posters here will tell you that the challenges posed in making buildings more energy efficient takes a hell of a lot more time and cost more money than you are suggesting.

Keep us posted on how well your works fare when BER rated......


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pseudo-tech

twdc wrote: »

some people go overboard with working drawingsand what is needed - a ploy to fool the client - i've been in the business avery long time and have never had a builder ask for more drawings than what i issued for planning - there are many out there who do drawings for planners that builders can work off - remember its not rocket science - i mean we are talkimg about one of houses and extensions
i always include in my price any changes to be made - 95% of any change would take the most - 2hrs additional work - only a few i have had to redraw but i always make the client aware of what my fee includes - i know some so called designers would charge 500+ for a minor change - daylight robbery

I would certainly be interested to hear how you propose to defend your client if there is a contractual disagreement and it goes to court. Remember, the drawings form part of that contract. There are also numerous contractors out there with experienced Quantity Surveyors just looking for poorly prepared drawings, so that they will make claim after claim after claim. You will be a contractors dream!

DOCARCH

twdc wrote: »

when i do drawings for clients for planning or exempted planning - the drawings are more than sufficient so that a builder can work off them - to me some architects are just too caught up in themselves and are trying to skim more money

I would suggest that you are giving your clients a dis-service if you are basically letting the builder decide on specifications!