New business, I jumper and should have looked down (and ahead!). All advice welcomed!

Chief

I jumper do I? Bloody typos, sorry.. I jumped and should have...

Another post from me lads. Still waiting on all me bank stuff through and my 3 accounts... Now I'm looking for some input of advice and ideas thanks...

After working in the IT sector for almost 10 years I lost my job not so long ago. I worked for other companies doing IT and graphics, I have owned my own IT company with a business partner for 5.5 years and then worked for my ex-business partner for a year. In all honesty I was under the thumb for the entire time and ideas I would have were ALWAYS put down as: That will never work etc, just keep on fixing, trouble shooting etc etc etc, in fact I came up with doing canvas prints on a larger scale 6 years ago but that was also told to be something no-one would want etc etc, wish i'd have had the confidence then and just gone off and did it... But losing my job was a blessing in my opinion as I'm now my own boss and even though I'm financially un-secure I am happier.

Having studied Art & Design & Photography at college many moons ago and still being keen on it all these years later I decided to start up a printing business selling canvases and prints of my own photos and other peoples photos. I convinced my Dad of how good (I am incredibly passionate about it to be honest, I've always wanted to do big picture printing, odd eh?) it could be. So we invested together in an Epson Stylus 9880 large format printer and a decent scanner, monitor and computer. I've learned to make my own timber stretchers from routed pine, and to stretch the canvases thanks to my cousin. I have a 5000 loan from the local credit onion, with about 1200 in savings, all spent on equipment and a few mortgage payments.

The problem is that Canvas prints are available everywhere now, I sold a few at Christmas to friends and family but there is so much competition. I also do the photo restoration for a local pharmacy and thought that maybe i could be their canvas supplier but the owners brother outsources all that for him.
I still do some IT and the guy I used to work for is never there so I pick up some trade that way, but it isn't a lot, it just about pays the mortgage some of the time but seems to take up far too much time.

Obviously I've jumped before I knew what was below. But on the other hand I LOVE it, the setting up, the editing in photoshop, watching the print coming out, making the frames, rubbing my thumbs as they are a bit sore from from stretching the canvas.

I'm also good to strong and web design and have a good head for learning imho.

Just looking for more ideas to make a living from what I love. But maybe I should stick to the computers as I am good at them but I've come to dislike them, the repairs, the monotony, the pressure of fixing servers in businesses securing data backups, recovering data, i just don't enjoy but I am good at it.
Perhaps do a bit of both like I'm doing, but my time management is abysmal, could anyone recommend a way of learning good time management?

I'm 31and also have a young family; a beautiful wife and 2 beautiful baby girls age 1 and 2 so I need to try and I WANT to spend good quality time with them.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to hearing any ideas or advice.
My apologies if it's a little incoherent or plain impossible to read, it's late and I'm not a great writer at the best of times

Thanks folks.

DubTony

Excuse the ignorance. What are canvas prints?

gnxx

Chief,

I'll be blunt to start. The canvas business doesn't look good. You indicate that sales so far are to "family and friends". You also describe lots of competion. I suspect that you know that this isn't a viable business.

I would suggest that you find a very small niche and specialize. You mention that you restore photos -- maybe this would make a decent business.

Otherwise I would look to your IT skills. Try and develop a very niche skill that you can charge a good daily rate for.

In terms of time management, I found that the easiest approach ( for me ), is to do the stuff I dislike on Monday and Tuesday ( sometimes Wednesday ). This leaves Thurs/Friday free for the stuff I like doing.

Chief

dubtony: a canvas print is a photo or image printed onto canvas and wrapped around a wooden frame to look physically like an oil painting done on a canvas block.

gnxx: i suspect you are right, but was slightly in denial. not anymore. i do have a niche idea actually. digitally copying artists work for them all colour matched and selling their prints for them online etc for a small fee then a cut of the profits and i'm the printer also. it's an idea i think.

the only other thing about the prints on canvas is i am a the cheapest in ireland, well from everywhere i've looked anyway and even pretty closely matched to the ebay shops. the other idea was to sell the canvas service to local businesses ie. photographers, other chemists, picture framers, to be their trade supplier.

whew, just text message wrote that, thanks for the advice gnxx, wil defo think about what you've said.

gnxx

Trying to compete on price is very difficult. Don't do it. Find a good niche and price will often become a non-issue.

I like your idea. Can I suggest that you forget about the web based business and focus on finding a sales channel for these prints?

You should consider speaking with art galleries. They may sell prints of work?

Anyhow, not my area of expertise. The only thing I know about painting is to use gloss on timber :-)

Chief wrote: »

dubtony: a canvas print is a photo or image printed onto canvas and wrapped around a wooden frame to look physically like an oil painting done on a canvas block.

gnxx: i suspect you are right, but was slightly in denial. not anymore. i do have a niche idea actually. digitally copying artists work for them all colour matched and selling their prints for them online etc for a small fee then a cut of the profits and i'm the printer also. it's an idea i think.

the only other thing about the prints on canvas is i am a the cheapest in ireland, well from everywhere i've looked anyway and even pretty closely matched to the ebay shops. the other idea was to sell the canvas service to local businesses ie. photographers, other chemists, picture framers, to be their trade supplier.

whew, just text message wrote that, thanks for the advice gnxx, wil defo think about what you've said.

Lplated

My tuppence worth ....

The good news it that you seem to have two saleable skills in areas that are not directly related to each other - i.e. a downturn in IT doesn't of necessity mean a downturn in the canvas business.

You personify Charles Handys (management guru, prolific writer) views on the future for us all - that we should have a number of marketable skills on which to draw more than one stream of income, and that the days of relying on one employment or one employer are over.

For a beginning, I would think positive (to me your post reads a bit on the negative side, just my opinion) - as you have these skills and have done something with them.

Have you looked at the snappy snaps franchise? Theres a lot of them in the UK, (cost about 150k entry i think), but they offer the sort of products that it would occur to me that you're interested in. Could you compete with them - on price - on variety of product? Maybe you could 'invent' a new product for their range and licence it to them.

You mentioned photoshop - how are you at making 'fakes' from existing photos? Would you consider some kind of 'themed' fakes business - for example putting my face on a historical background, say in front of the GPO in 1916, to make it look like i was there - for example put a persons face on the photo of a pilot to make it look like the person was flying the airplane, etc.... If you could do any of those things, would you set up a website (and learn how to market it) at little enough cost?

To run any business you're going to need financing. Your IT skills appear to bring in the money, even if your not overly keen on the job. I would 'suffer' it for as long as it took to build the capital to run my other business.

Open your mind to possibilities, do a lot of internet searching, let your mind wander and see if anything occurs to you. After you have a list of ten or twenty possibles, start doing feasibility research until you bring your idea down to one strong one. Plenty of grants etc available, once your business case stands up.

Best of luck.

Chief

gnxx: The price competition isn't crazy cheap, you would just need to get a little bit of volume to make ends meet etc. Glad you like the other idea and I was thinking about approaching galleries, gift shops, framers etc.. why would you say abandon the web based business? The main reason was because it is rural where I am based so I was thinking of selling both through ebay and through a website, plus to get artists on board offer them a free listing on the online gallery and the offer of copying and selling their work for them for a small monthly fee + a cut of the print sale. Thanks again gnxx

Lplated: My apologies for sounding a bit down, it's just I was so excited to begin with and I still really am but the worry of not being able to pay a mortgage payment in the near future etc has creeped in. I am a very positive person, just lack of cash has been getting me down a bit. The snappy snaps Idea I would love but the is not a hope in hell that I would be able to afford the franchise or the start up costs or wages or training fees etc etc. But maybe I can think of a product to license to them. You never know!
I am good at photoshop and IT and I certainly could do that kind of stuff. I will suffer it in fact I'll advertise a bit, I'm well know in the area for IT and photography and web design so to let people know I'm back at it should pull some more and I am open to possibilities

On the grants front, where do you think I should apply? I contacted the enterprise board and they said categorically no to everything, like interest free loans (you have to be unemployed for 3 years to qualify), grants from them are only for manufacturing and they didn't believe that printing was manufacturing, perhaps if I had huge sales in the future to a retail outfit they would reconsider. Although they were lovely people who did spend the time talking with me and offering me a couple of business courses about tax and accounting etc. And as far as the social welfare goes they were the same, 3 years unemployed otherwise your on your own totally. I checked about a mentor with the local partnership organisation and the same thing, 3 years unemployed etc before we can help.

I and my Dad have put about 15,000 into it in total but there is no match funding even that I can find. So I'm currently renting my cousins garage for 100 a week and that gives me esb, internet and office and workshop space which is great.

Thanks Lplated for your ideas and all to.

ON a different point folks, where do you think the best place in Ireland for packing materials is? Large Sheets of Corrogated cardboard, brown paper, Large bubble wrap and tape etc as I can't seem to get any locally (Co. Donegal).

gnxx

I'm always very anxious when people suggest Internet based businesses for a new business area.

My view is that a business is only viable if you can easily find an inital customer base close to home.

I would tend to use a two-phase approach with the web. First, use the Internet as an advertising and marketing channel. Once you make some local sales and you are generating revenue, then look to the Internet as a sales channel.

Chief wrote: »

gnxx: The price competition isn't crazy cheap, you would just need to get a little bit of volume to make ends meet etc. Glad you like the other idea and I was thinking about approaching galleries, gift shops, framers etc.. why would you say abandon the web based business? The main reason was because it is rural where I am based so I was thinking of selling both through ebay and through a website, plus to get artists on board offer them a free listing on the online gallery and the offer of copying and selling their work for them for a small monthly fee + a cut of the print sale. Thanks again gnxx

Chief

I will take your advice and develop the site as an advertisement and contact source initially and see how local sales go. Cheers for the advice again gnxx.

gnxx wrote: »

I'm always very anxious when people suggest Internet based businesses for a new business area.

My view is that a business is only viable if you can easily find an inital customer base close to home.

I would tend to use a two-phase approach with the web. First, use the Internet as an advertising and marketing channel. Once you make some local sales and you are generating revenue, then look to the Internet as a sales channel.

Vikinghar

Hi Chief, couple of comments and a couple of questions and a lot of streamed consciousness.
List and Market your full range of products - re-prints, original prints, your own art work also. A great way of gaining clarity about what you can do is to derive content for a biz plan or a website. Do make a website and promoting it will not cost a fortune. Sell on e-bay, with a forward link to your website. Never miss an opportubity to promote your website (www.pro-vision.ie). I took a quick look at your printer on google, nice and big. Your products are only limited by the size of what you can print. I suspect you can join canvases together to make even bigger banners. Contact PR and Marketing companies offereing great big banners for promotion. Going smaller, can you create backdrops on screen rollers for business presentations? Find out about a relevant trade show or publication that will inform you of what is out there, and stimulate your imagination of what you can do. Your local enterprise board might be able to help you with research, or even provide some useful training.
PS keep your feet on the ground, do the IT work to support the canvas printing. 1 days IT = 1 weeks canvas printing. The very best of luck.

Axwell

Vikinghar wrote: »

Never miss an opportubity to promote your website (www.pro-vision.ie).

Also read the charter about posting links to websites and how they should be put in your signature not stuck in your posts

stepbar

I have experience of dealing with a company in this marketspace. They managed to get supplies into some of the biggest retail stores in Ireland. TBH in the past few years they've been struggling big time.

I suspect OP that this will amount to nothing more than a cottage business for you. As far as I can see if someone wants a piece of Art they will go to a gallery and buy the piece done up already. Especially in these times there are folk out there who will buy Art as an investment in the hope that's value will appreciate. They don't want to be dealing with folk who just offer a framing service. So TBH I think unless you get in with a few art galleries or a few prominent artists, you will find business quite hard. Anyhow good luck with it.

niceirishfella

stepbar wrote: »

I have experience of dealing with a company in this marketspace. They managed to get supplies into some of the biggest retail stores in Ireland. TBH in the past few years they've been struggling big time.

I suspect OP that this will amount to nothing more than a cottage business for you. As far as I can see if someone wants a piece of Art they will go to a gallery and buy the piece done up already. Especially in these times there are folk out there who will buy Art as an investment in the hope that's value will appreciate. They don't want to be dealing with folk who just offer a framing service. So TBH I think unless you get in with a few art galleries or a few prominent artists, you will find business quite hard. Anyhow good luck with it.

+1.
Not to diss what you are doing tho'!
You have great energy and spirit and you are a family man and they will spur you on to do well - but this business is not going to get the result/reward for you you need for the time/effert it'll drain over the next while.
It'll be a nice sideline - but no fulltime.
Any business that someone can set up from their garage or wherever for a few k is open to the sideline nixer guys who will do it for half nothing because they can.
You're a skilled bloke - use your skills to pay the bills but continue to seek to do a gig you really want to do!:D

Best of luck.

maninasia

I don't think this is a very viable business given the number of competitors and economic situation. I'd advise you to develop some further skills in IT for the moment to maximise your income/time worked, at the same time try doing different things (maybe variations on canvas printing, artistic rendering of photos). I think you enjoy the artistic hands on part more than anything which is great....hard to make money from art though unless you have something unique or make/catch a trend.

Chief

Firstly thanks a million for all the advise lads good and be careful comments alike!

Well I've been open for a week now and today things all went back to the way I remember it. 12 Machines left in for repair today and 3 call-outs to do! Usual head banging against the walls problems have reared their heads and the that was easier than I thought it was going to be stuff to. Time management will be the key here, but I'm thinking I just might be able to cover the rent of the premises and all the bills AND get back to paying the mortgage after the three months payment holiday I'm taking.

A couple of canvas prints orders have come in to, nothing spectacular.. yet.. but I am about 20% cheaper than the cheapest local competitor and hopefully when that gets out to the wider community.

I have a picture framer on board who works from home, so I have displayed a selection of his work and frames etc and will get a small cut from from each job he gets.

I'm currently working on the press releases to call artists for the gallery. I am thinking of charging 10 euro per picture per month with a maximum of 3 pictures and a minimum of 2 months in the gallery at 10% commision. For that they will get in the gallery which will be open Tuesday - Sunday plus get on the gallery website with a profile and some sample images. Then I'm going to offer a digital reproduction and archiving service for 60 euro per picture with the offer of selling prints of the artists work online for say 50% commision or maybe I should charge a few euro there to. We'll see how it goes but I think the thought of low commision and website with online sails for a small monthly fee rather than a high comission and a few thousand euro for a fully fledged e-commerce site would be quite appealing to artists.

Oh yeah and the other idea was high quality product photography for local businesses as well, I certainly believe that could be a go-er.

All thoughts welcome btw lads on these ideas and thanks again for all knowledge imparted and feedback.

onedmc

I did some canvas prints for business. Basically got pictures of dublin printed on canvas for the wall, did really well out of it. Not sure it was 100% without copyright infringement but I think I made about 10K out of it so it would be possible to do it above board.

Did reall big prints for walls, got them done somewhere in the UK