Novation Supernova

PaulBrewer

What's the skinny on these yokes, Lads?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What's the skinny on these yokes, Lads?

hmmm. i have the nova which i think has the exact same synthesis engine. not a massive fan of it tbh.
nice for certain types of percussive sounds, but for everything else it sounds fairly plastic and weak to my ears.

great functionality and easy to use though (i presume the supernova is very much like the nova in this regard, and you get dedicated separated amp and filter adsr controls on the supernova - which is nice).

FirefoxDCU

Yes there are a few on adverts.ie at the moment, and apart from the keyboard one that was sold, there isnt much interest. No offence to the lads but I think those asking prices are a bit 'out-there'. Maybe the keyboard one for 500, but 500 and 700 for the old rack versions?

I've never been impressed by the demos Ive heard of them. If I saw one for 200 quid I'd pick one up to mess with but the sound has long been surpassed in software. I'd say theyre fun to have just for all the knobs and LEDs and hands on stuff.

To my ears they sound harsh and cold like some free experimental softsynth from 5 years ago. Some people say at this stage software kicks butt off all hardware but the Virus and Nord and Radias are still great in my opinion. Supernova isnt in that ball park though. Not even close. Just my 2 cents as they say. (Im sure some people love them)

condra

I think they're pretty cool but not as a "main" sound source. I agree the asking prices of some of the synth stuff on adverts at the moment is very optimistic.

PaulBrewer

Thanks to all.

woodsdenis

I have to express an interest in this as I am selling one. I am doing this to be transparent in my comments and not to mislead anyone. I am not commenting on prices or adverts etc. This is a general response to software v hardware.

The only thing I have seen that comes close to a Supernova in plug-in form
is an Access Virus TDM. Similar multi timbral/efx spec, It is expensive and you need a Pro Tools TDM rig to run it. The only reason that they could do such a good job on the conversion was that the same chip was used in the Virus and the PT cards. It is not an easy thing to emulate anything in software.
When it comes to the sound of these Virtual Analogue synths it is entirely subjective. Some people I know wouldn't use anything else some people hate them.
To say that software out performs or surpasses the hardware version of anything is slightly naive.
There are fantastic SSL/Neve/API emulations out there but no one I know has ever said they are better than the real thing. There is no software version of Supernova that I know of. That doesn't mean it's the best thing since sliced bread or crap, it just is what it is.
I will admit though that none these synths Novation/Nord/MS2000 will cover everything on their own in the same way that no guitar/microphone/amp/speaker will be good for everything .
Also to conclude even the Access Virus TDM isn't a patch on the real thing.


Denis

jimi_t

woodsdenis wrote: »

To say that software out performs or surpasses the hardware version of anything is slightly naive.
There are fantastic SSL/Neve/API emulations out there but no one I know has ever said they are better than the real thing. There is no software version of Supernova that I know of. That doesn't mean it's the best thing since sliced bread or crap, it just is what it is.

In the same vein, its a bit naive to make an analogy with analog (And often tube kit) compared to digital kit. There are no analog components in the Supernova - no proprietary filters and certainly nothing that would pose a challenge to even freeware VSTi's. Its a great piece of tactile kit (had both the updated OS Nova and the Supernova) but its definitely been surpassed by a wide range of the VA 3 osc VSTis.

(as goes the sound, far too 'clean' and brittel sounding for a VA. Funnily enough it does quite passable faux-FM stuff and the arpeggiator is quite solid)

FirefoxDCU

Denis I think peoples replies to this thread have been fairly considered because they're aware that some of the sellers might be on the forum.

While probably nothing I am about to say here will be music to your ears, I do say it with respect, and I will try to be objective. Of course, it is only my opinion anyway.

It is not my wish to insult you, or spoil your chances of getting a reasonable and fair price for the equipment that you are selling, but I do wish to respond to your comments here in the interest of dialogue, and anyone who is considering buying a Supernova...

I think the generally muted response to your ads on adverts.ie indicates that, regrettably, you might be somewhat "out of touch" with current trends in the hardware and software market.

Digital stuff doesnt age like analogue stuff.
In general, it slowly but surely depreciates.
The Supernova was out in 1998. Ten years is a very very long time in the world of DSP.

The hardware/software debate has been done here on boards as much as anywhere else I'm sure, so I won't thread too long in that water, but suffice to say, the lines are getting blurred - Where softsynths were out of the question for most producers ten years ago, they have long since caught up (some would say surpassed) in terms of capability.

There is no magic that happens because something is "hardware". My computers CPU is hardware too.
There is nothing analogue in the signal path of a hardware VA synth - it is all 0s and 1s, just like in my computer.
My computer, like the Supernova, doesn't have any valves or filters.. just 0s and 1s.
The sample rate is the same.
The bit depth is the same.
There is no room for error. The sound is defined by how cleverly the DSP was programmed, and how capable the hardware processing is.

The Novation K-Station for example, was 500 sterling when it was introduced in 2002, was later replaced by the V-Station VST. - the sound, exactly, 100% bonafide IDENTICAL.
(by the way, I realise that you completely get this, having brought up Virus TDM)
You can buy V-Station now for between free and 19 euro.

Indeed, there has never been a VST made to replicate the Supernova, but really, on paper, lets face it, most commercial VSTs trash the Supernova.
That's not to say it isnt a cool synth, and the arp features are cool aswell as the comb filter etc.

My point is, - the main advantage hardware has over software is hands-on control, and I think this is the point you should be making in defence of the Supernova, because the argument that its sound is special is frankly embarrassing. (IMO. Sorry)

Having said all that, I have never played one in the flesh, and only have reviews, spec, and demos from the internet to go by.

There are demos here:
http://www.vintagesynth.com/audio/supernova2.mp3
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=iY_PEy3pq4k
http://jexus.id.uw.edu.pl/WCOG_Novation_Nova2.mp3 (Nova 2?)

If you know of any better demos, link me up by all means.

Nowadays, VSTs like Massive, Z3TA+, Zebra etc, are better than ever, and in the hardware world, amazing digital synths like the Pluggiator and Blofeld cost half nothing, not to mention the new affordable analogue synths from DSI and MFB.

There was a time when almost any synth would cause a frenzy and be quickly whipped up on adverts.ie, but those days are gone.
I'm sorry also that your gear has depreciated, but these are the breaks.

I cannot honestly see you getting 500 for the Supernova or (next or near) a grand for a Nord Rack and an MS2000.
At the end of the day, I think things tend to go for the right price on adverts, for the most part. Synth heads are very savvy, and shrewd as hell.

Regards.

condra

FirefoxDCU wrote: »

The hardware/software debate has been done ...........so I won't thread too long in that water.
..............
There is no magic that happens because something is "hardware". My computers CPU is hardware too.
There is nothing analogue in the signal path of a hardware VA synth - it is all 0s and 1s, just like in my computer.
My computer, like the Supernova, doesn't have any valves or filters.. just 0s and 1s.
The sample rate is the same.
The bit depth is the same.
There is no room for error. The sound is defined by how cleverly the DSP was programmed, and how capable the hardware processing is.

I thought you weren't going to go on about it LOL Just kidding.
By the way you forgot to mention that you have proper total recall in your DAW with software. :cool: I guess some of the charm of the Virus TI is the way you get the best of both worlds.

woodsdenis

Firefox thanks for your well thought out and worded reply. I would respectfully disagree with a lot of what your saying.

You are absolutely correct in saying that there are no tubes or discreet analogue components in a Supernova . That doesn't make it terrible or brilliant. I certainly didn't claim it to be special in anyway,it isn't, it is what it is.
As you said in your post you have never played one. I would never have an opinion on something I have never played/used or heard demos on the internet. You can however, and that is your perogative.
I am not going to get into comparisons with other gear, its just an opinion and everyone has them. I will certainly give my opinion on gear that I have used and IMO there is no definitive answer to the VI versus hardware synth one.
They are different thats all. I am sure you can quote examples of how this one or that one is better than that. Its all subjective.

My point about the Access Virus TDM is that as good a VI as it is it is not the same as the original. I have played both, it is not the same.

As regards to anything with a chip being 1 + 0 and therefore easily replicated on a computer is IMHO naive. Lets forget about the Supernova for the moment, A Lexicon 480 has no analogue discreet components. No one has managed to replicate that in software. Many have claimed that they have but being realistic it has never been done. Why?

There is a TDM software version of the Eventide H3000 another all digital no tubes unit. Great plugin, I own one. Is it the same as the hardware unit, not in a million years and it was coded by the same company.

This is not claiming that hardware/software is better/worse than the other.
They are not the same. That is the point, and I only make it because I have
experience of the ones I comment about.


As I said in the previous post I am not going to comment about prices on adverts.ie so I would appreciate if anyone has a comment take it there. I can respond to criticism there, I cannot and will not in respect for this forum comment here. Some of what has been quoted here is inaccurate so to be fair to me, dont use this forum to respond to /criticize adverts I have posted. I have been absolutely upfront about this and I am not replying to this thread to sell or persuade anybody to buy anything.

Denis

studiorat

I'll + 1 on Dennis' call for the H3000 and Virus in TDM versions. They are good but they certainly aren't the same as the Hardware version. Same goes for any emulation of the heavyweight reverbs of days of yore, the Lexicon 480 and 224 and the AMS RMX 16, whose preset names are to be found in nearly every piece of kit since, they are similar but certainly not the same.

I do feel that some have missed mentioning the line amps in any of this kit which is an analogue component and does infact have an impact on the sound. The fact of the matter is that Adverts.ie is a very small marketplace and it's very difficult to get current 2nd hand values in professional gear. Fine for the odd guitar or amp or something but you just don't get the price on proper studio kit there that you should. Hence the tyre kicking, stupid offers and other muppetry that goes along with placing an advert on that site.

woodsdenis

Studiorat

Thanks for reply. Have a look at this site

http://www.acousticas.net/

They look very interesting. They will work with most convolution reverbs including TL Space.

Denis

PaulBrewer

If I might hijack my own thread -

I have pondered about the software v hardware synth/processor thing.

What I can't work out is why wouldn't a process that is software based , Reverb, for example not sound 'as good' on different platforms ?

In fact couldn't an argument be made that something older like a Lex 224 might have the opportunity to actually sound better now that A2D D2A technology has improved so much since they were designed?

Is the issue the software itself the problem?

studiorat

Thanks Dennis,
Nice looking stuff, If they start giving away for nothing I'll be interested. Actually it's probably time I got into convolution shizit. My main 'verb is still an M5000. Can't beat that wood room...

@Paul, I think the 224 sounds so good precisely because the A2D and D2A and the algorithms were crap compared with todays technology.

I'll pull up a reverb preset that I think fits and tweek it until it sounds nice in the track. When I then listen to it in solo it sounds terrible. Just because a reverb can be made to sound natural doesn't mean it will sound good in context. Thats why we sometimes still use plate emulations, non-linears and the like, not because they sound natural but because they sound good. A spring still sounds good to my ears and that's as analogue as it gets...

woodsdenis

Sorry Paul for hijacking

The theory of course is that it should work. In my experience it never has
apart from a few exceptions. The TC Reverbs for TDM which are ported from the 6000 are very similar.I would still take the hardware unit anyday.

If you take the idea of say a Lexicon 480. Your right, I would say the AD/DA
conversion on the original wouldn't be up to par comparing it to modern versions. Its what gives it some of it's character I suppose. Those lucky enough to use these things regularly say that the Lexicon 300 is the best one of that line.

As studiorat pointed out the line amps are an analogue component of any hardware unit which adds some kind of distortion to the signal aswell. All of these things give a 480 its sound. Its not all about replicating software algorithms.

A trick I was shown years ago was to send something through an AMS RMX
and not use the effect. You just changed the character of the sound by passing it through the unit. I dont know what it did but the result was great.

This of course has very little to do with a Supernova. I think the point that has to be made here is that software/hardware is not the same. I am not saying which is better or worse I am saying they are different. Knowing that, make an informed choice.

Denis

madtheory

Back on topic- the X Station is a vast improvement, sonically. Excellent for editing VSTs, you can assign the front panel to something else really easily.

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

The theory of course is that it should work. In my experience it never has
apart from a few exceptions. The TC Reverbs for TDM which are ported from the 6000 are very similar.I would still take the hardware unit anyday.

If you take the idea of say a Lexicon 480. Your right, I would say the AD/DA
conversion on the original wouldn't be up to par comparing it to modern versions. Its what gives it some of it's character I suppose. Those lucky enough to use these things regularly say that the Lexicon 300 is the best one of that line.

As studiorat pointed out the line amps are an analogue component of any hardware unit which adds some kind of distortion to the signal aswell. All of these things give a 480 its sound. Its not all about replicating software algorithms.

A trick I was shown years ago was to send something through an AMS RMX
and not use the effect. You just changed the character of the sound by passing it through the unit. I dont know what it did but the result was great.

This of course has very little to do with a Supernova. I think the point that has to be made here is that software/hardware is not the same. I am not saying which is better or worse I am saying they are different. Knowing that, make an informed choice.

Denis

Interesting indeed, sum of the parts I guess.

condra

Denis Woods of Belfire/Clannad productions?

Pretty cool!

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

http://www.acousticas.net/

They look very interesting. They will work with most convolution reverbs including TL Space.

Denis

Denis that's mad shizit ! Any good? Do they sound better than their Website looks?

woodsdenis

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Denis that's mad shizit ! Any good? Do they sound better than their Website looks?

I haven't tried these yet. People whose opinions I trust have and they are
raving about them. ASFAIK they work with Logic/Space Designer and most
other convolution reverbs that come with most DAW's. For € 59 if you already
have the plug-in price seems OK.

Denis

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

I haven't tried these yet. People whose opinions I trust have and they are
raving about them. ASFAIK they work with Logic/Space Designer and most
other convolution reverbs that come with most DAW's. For € 59 if you already
have the plug-in price seems OK.

Denis

Very interesting ... for those scheckles it would be worth a try.

woodsdenis

womoma wrote: »

Denis Woods of Belfire/Clannad productions?

Pretty cool!

That's me alright. I am doing more TV/Movies now. I only came across this board a few weeks ago. I know Paul Brewer for many years and I think its
a great idea for producers/engineers/composers to pool knowledge in hopefully an informative and respectful manner.
The best piece of advice I ever got was never to dismiss anything without investigation and in that spirit I will chime in occasionally to give an opinion.


Denis

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

and respectful manner.

..... better head off then so D!;)

woodsdenis

PaulBrewer wrote: »

..... better head off then so D!;)

I did say hopefully!!!

studiorat

woodsdenis wrote: »

I know Paul Brewer for many years

We won't hold that against ya...;)

PaulBrewer

Seriously though it's great you've come to join us and share your knowledge and experience. Whilst there are a few engineer producers here your additional keyboards background is a good addition.

jtsuited

woodsdenis wrote: »

Studiorat

Thanks for reply. Have a look at this site

http://www.acousticas.net/

They look very interesting. They will work with most convolution reverbs including TL Space.

Denis

I got the EMT IR's before christmas there. Best 60 euro i ever did spend.