gross misconduct?

donkeykonky

Hi there.

I'm in a spot of bother in work at the moment. A senior manager has taken diciplinary action against me and is calling it gross misconduct.

The incidents are focused on 2 weekend days a few weeks back. We were quiet and myself and a few of my collegues spent too long in the canteen on breaks. The infringement is totaled at 4 hrs over the 2x 12 hr days. (we work shifts). Would this be a little extreme to call "fraud" which is in our handbook as being a dismissal offense. I would accept that we were wrong and that some diciplinary measue should be taken but doesn't dismissal seem disporportionate?


D.

Darragh29

donkeykonky wrote: »

Hi there.

I'm in a spot of bother in work at the moment. A senior manager has taken diciplinary action against me and is calling it gross misconduct.

The incidents are focused on 2 weekend days a few weeks back. We were quiet and myself and a few of my collegues spent too long in the canteen on breaks. The infringement is totaled at 4 hrs over the 2x 12 hr days. (we work shifts). Would this be a little extreme to call "fraud" which is in our handbook as being a dismissal offense. I would accept that we were wrong and that some diciplinary measue should be taken but doesn't dismissal seem disporportionate?


D.

That doesn't constitute gross misconduct in any man's language. unless you happen to be in boot camp for the marines.

DenMan

Same here OP. Sounds more like he's looking for a reason to rattle his sabre.

AARRRGH

I think your employer could rightly claim you commited fraud, i.e. you claimed you were working, and billed for it, but were in fact doing something else.

Jumping straight to gross misconduct seems harsh though. Are you, in general, considered a valued employee?

donkeykonky

yes I would be considered valuable. I have over 10 years service in the company in an area where experience and ongoing training are vital. This just seems so heavyhanded.

D.

Darragh29

donkeykonky wrote: »

yes I would be considered valuable. I have over 10 years service in the company in an area where experience and ongoing training are vital. This just seems so heavyhanded.

D.

Meet it head on is my advice, your job is on the line here OP. There are a lot of businesses now at this sh*te becasue they want to get rid of heads but don't want to pay redundancy.

Shelflife

If i read it correctly you and your mate in effect took a three hour lunch break each day ( 2hrs each day extra).

any clock in irregularties ie: clocking in for work but remaining in the canteen is gross misconduct full stop.

two hours each day is alot and in hard times would leave the door open for discliplinary measures, you really cant afford to expose yourself to this.

in short its a very serious matter but i would imagine if you are a valued employee it will entail a severe slap on the wrist if its your first offense.

donkeykonky

As we are shift workers we are paid for our breaks so never clock in/out to visit the canteen. the extra minuits were racked up over a series of breaks, over both days. But i do take your point.

leeroybrown

Are the other employees involved being disciplined in the same way?

If I had to guess I'd say that this senior manager is under cost pressures in their section of the workplace and sees this as a chance to get rid of some experienced and therefore expensive employees free of charge. Any manufacturing operation that's running 12 hour shifts must really be feeling a big pinch in the current downturn.

If you're lucky it'll just be a case of the manager making an example of you to stop this from happening and you'll only get a written warning (possibly final). You'll be walking on egg shells through this entire downturn though.

Big_Mac

Sounds more like Misconduct than Gross Misconduct to me. Gross misconduct would be something like lewd and lascivious behaviour or intoxicated whilst at work, or stealing

Technically what you did was stealing, ie on break whilst supposed to be working and getting paid for it, but this is an extreme. Stealing in terms of gross misconduct would be something like embezzlement

Caoimhín

Big_Mac wrote: »

Sounds more like Misconduct than Gross Misconduct to me. Gross misconduct would be something like lewd and lascivious behaviour or intoxicated whilst at work, or stealing

Yep, that's about right. Along with serious breaches of health and safety policy, gross misconduct usually refers to breaking the law or aggressive behaviour.

Op, i think your boss is just taking a strong line on this matter. If you have been employed for 10 years then 2 hours extra in the canteen is not a big enough reason to fire you. Any employer would have difficulties explaining that to a labour court, also, do you have a contract?

mountainyman

You are laughing donkey. You will be quids in if you're fired. But I would advise that you apologise, don't let it happen again explain that you were slow and so on. I think you can be warned for this kind of piss taking but not fired wothout warning.

On the other hand you are a big boy so why are you taking the piss at work?

donkeykonky

Just back from diciplinary hearing. ouch!! CCTV, door swipes, the whole 9 yards. evidence in abundance. They didn't seem to be so aggresive about the whole fraud thing this time tho.

One thing i did notice was that the senior manager wasn't so concerned about what i did but why i did it? He seems to want to know the reasons behind this. why would i do it, how could i do it. Would he be trying to dig some dirt on my direct supervisor? i'd rather not be involved in this kind of thing.

Nody

donkeykonky wrote: »

One thing i did notice was that the senior manager wasn't so concerned about what i did but why i did it? He seems to want to know the reasons behind this. why would i do it, how could i do it. Would he be trying to dig some dirt on my direct supervisor? i'd rather not be involved in this kind of thing.

I'd say it is a two fold reason, one of course about the fact you are bored/underworked (you did take 2h extra break after all) and secondly to see what can be done to stop the first question. Don't see it as being a dig on your manager though.

cooperguy

You definatly have a case here OP. You are in the wrong (obviously) but its hardly a sackable offence. If you didnt get any warnings then it you have a good case.

What was the result of the hearing anyway? What sort of action was taken?

donkeykonky

Well I was presented with the evidence and they have given me a few days to look over it. I don't really see the point in not admitting to the offense but he really did seem to be pushing gross misconduct and dismissal.

With regards to previous warnings, there was a general e-mail sent around to the whole department some 9 months ago warning about this but nothing since till now.

I this does seem to be very heavyhanded.

Thanks.

D

mountainyman

donkeykonky wrote: »

I this does seem to be very heavyhanded.

They can't sack you for this. They are (legitimately I think) trying to give you a good scare.

A couple of points
[1] ever done 10 minutes unpaid overtime or taken a shorter lunch to do work? If so write that down and tell them.
After all if you have done even small amounts of work over and above your 8 hours a day then turnabout is fair play and frankly their actions are unacceptable.

[2] If they fire you over this you have a claim and they know that.

[3] If you've no work to do what are you supposed to do about it. 'Nothing' isn't an acceptable answer.

The problem is not being in the canteen. The problem is having no work to do. Is it perhaps the case that you are very able and get your work done quicker than everyone else?

gerrycollins

donkeykonky wrote: »

Well I was presented with the evidence and they have given me a few days to look over it. I don't really see the point in not admitting to the offense but he really did seem to be pushing gross misconduct and dismissal.

With regards to previous warnings, there was a general e-mail sent around to the whole department some 9 months ago warning about this but nothing since till now.

I this does seem to be very heavyhanded.

Thanks.

D

you have said that you dont clock for breaks etc what about lunch or is it the same?

is there anything in your contract that says you have to clock/register breaks?

did the offence occur at break or lunch times?

just a few questions for a full picture

donkeykonky

No all our breaks are paid so no clockins are required.

There is no mention of having to clock in and out for breaks in my contract.

Yes these did all occur at break times.

Thanks

D.

Nody

mountainyman wrote: »

[1] ever done 10 minutes unpaid overtime or taken a shorter lunch to do work? If so write that down and tell them.

No good on the lunch (legislation).

gerrycollins

donkeykonky wrote: »

No all our breaks are paid so no clockins are required.

There is no mention of having to clock in and out for breaks in my contract.

Yes these did all occur at break times.

Thanks

D.

is there any way for your breaks to be monitored such as job cards that you sign off or swipe cards for exit/entry to work location.

sounds to me that they are skating on thin ice, you can easily say that you lost track of time.

gnxx

I think a number of posters are hinting at a very specific point.

Have you done anything to cover or hide the extended breaks? For example, did you ask a workmate to cover you ? Have you created any paper work that gives the impression that you are working when in fact, you were on a break?

donkeykonky

Yes they can monitor our positions at all times with badge access swipes and cctv cameras. Which they have done and which I had to (painfully) sit and watch.

No we never made any attempt to hide what we one. No underhandedness on our behalf. We just sat in the canteen.

D

gnxx

Certainly on the surface this doesn't appear to be gross misconduct. Have a look through the company handbook and your contract.

Given the current state of play with the economy, the best advice is to avoid trouble at all costs. Restrict your time in the canteen :-)

I hope it works out for you.

gerrycollins

donkeykonky wrote: »

Yes they can monitor our positions at all times with badge access swipes and cctv cameras. Which they have done and which I had to (painfully) sit and watch.

No we never made any attempt to hide what we one. No underhandedness on our behalf. We just sat in the canteen.

D

does your contract specifically state time lengths of breaks?

if it does and you "extended" the break yourself and you get paid for your breaks(not many people have that) it can be assumed that the company have put trust in you as an employee to take your breaks accordinly and responsibly and to be at your work all other times.

you have failed to do so which in my book is a gross misconduct matter especially for someone of your length of service.

however this depends if such an offence is noted in your contract/terms of emploment.

if the offence is noted then it is gross misconduct

if not it could warrant a written warning without the need for the previous standard steps.

tonyferrino

no way what you did can be construed as gross misconduct, no way

btw, did they explain to you in advance the reason for today's meeting and advise you that you could have someone with you (union rep, friend, solicitor etc) if you so wished

worst they can do is give you warning, this should be a 'verbal warning' although it'll be on paper and you'll have to sign it

sound like your manager hasn't got a clue about disciplinary procedures

IsThatSo?

are you the only one being hauled up over this?

it seems from your first post that there were others who took the longer breaks too.

Look, lets face it, very few in the workforce would not have taken a little extra over their breaks or lunch hour over a number of years. It does happen, sometimes one just forgets the time, sometimes one just feels lazy. Such is life, although those extra hours over a 2 shift period do seem excessive.

Good luck OP. It seems to me that you were enjoying the craic with your friends rather than trying to intentionally defraud your company. Its a harsh lesson and I hope it doesn't get any more serious than it has.

PurpleBerry

donkeykonky wrote: »

One thing i did notice was that the senior manager wasn't so concerned about what i did but why i did it? He seems to want to know the reasons behind this. why would i do it, how could i do it.

I find that a very legitimate question. Why in the name if goodness would you sit on your arse for 2 extra hours in the canteen? Boredom? Unable to do the job? Laziness? Cheekiness?

Of course management will want to know, in order to attempt to prevent anyone else thinking they can get away with the same thing.

doolox

It looks as if you will have to be a "saint" and "eat crow" for the duration of this recession until job prospects improve.
Your 12 hour shifts and paid breaks sound like a place I left in Nov 07 and I was trying my best to take the longest breaks I could when I was there.
I think if you can put this behind you and "do the time" and conform to the canonical break times allowed you will be fine.
If, however, you feel tempted to take longer and longer breaks, take uncalled for sickies etc then something is wrong.
You may hate your job and not realise it.
You may be in the wrong line of work, as the yanks so quaintly put it.( Is there a RIGHT kind of work?????)
You my need some sort of job enrichment to allow you to reach your full potential. It is only human and natural for people to like what they are doing and companies and bosses usually bend over backwards to fit the right people to the right job or design a job to be enjoyable where possible.
It saves on supervisory, enforcement and control costs.
You may need to look at you and your job more closely if the urge to take longer breaks continues..............

donkeykonky

Hi Again.

Ok we got our verdict yesterday. Gross misconduct and a Final Written Warning. At least we weren't dismissed.
One thing i have learned is that if an employer wants to get rid of you he can. Its easy. all he has to do is call your offence gross misconduct and you're screwed.
In our employee handbook, it gives a list of acts of gross misconduct. the usuall stuff like theft, violence and drug/alcohol abuse. Then the doozie..... "this list is by no means exhaustive". They have you right there. Picking yer nose, I'm sure, may one day fall into this category.
I urge anyone reading this to be very careful in work. The dices are loaded against you and jobs are thin on the ground. Keep the head down and don't give them any excuses. Thanks to all here that offered advice and help. It was much appreciiated.

D.

Sleipnir

Good to hear that you still have a job. That's all that matters in the end.

All that stuff about "did anyone else do the same thing" and "sure tell them about all the times you worked after your shift was over" doesn't matter a damn. They don't and won't pay any heed to any of that.

Nody

Interesting that they even dare to list what is gross misconduct (we where advised to remove it in my old company as it could be construed as judging someone before the hearing).

Anyway to OP if they would have fired you on this alone they would have had a very hard time to show that it was gross misconduct and not simply misconduct. I still think that it might be worth challenging them to show that it is gross misconduct and not simply misconduct but you may not want to rock the boat at this time.

Big_Mac

donkeykonky wrote: »

Hi Again.

Ok we got our verdict yesterday. Gross misconduct and a Final Written Warning. At least we weren't dismissed.
One thing i have learned is that if an employer wants to get rid of you he can. Its easy. all he has to do is call your offence gross misconduct and you're screwed.
In our employee handbook, it gives a list of acts of gross misconduct. the usuall stuff like theft, violence and drug/alcohol abuse. Then the doozie..... "this list is by no means exhaustive". They have you right there. Picking yer nose, I'm sure, may one day fall into this category.
I urge anyone reading this to be very careful in work. The dices are loaded against you and jobs are thin on the ground. Keep the head down and don't give them any excuses. Thanks to all here that offered advice and help. It was much appreciiated.

D.

Nody wrote: »

Interesting that they even dare to list what is gross misconduct (we where advised to remove it in my old company as it could be construed as judging someone before the hearing).

Anyway to OP if they would have fired you on this alone they would have had a very hard time to show that it was gross misconduct and not simply misconduct. I still think that it might be worth challenging them to show that it is gross misconduct and not simply misconduct but you may not want to rock the boat at this time.

I have to agree with Nody. I don't see how this can possibly be gross misconduct, and this will be on your employment record with them

Have you been given the right to appeal? If you have, I would seriously consider appealing this, on the grounds that what you did was in no way gross misconduct, only misconduct. There are distinct differences between the two. Perhaps your employer should educate themselves as to this fact.
Perhaps speak with someone in HR in confidence about it, or speak with the Citizens info center?

Sleipnir

Big_Mac wrote: »

Perhaps speak with someone in HR in confidence about it

Yah right!
HR are there to protect the company, not the employee!