IS IRELAND A CUL-DE-SAC FOR BANDS/ARTISTS

tmango

... back in the 80s/90s you could send demo tapes and hope for a reply from record co'..and they never really signed anyone. so do Irish musicians have to move out of Ireland to make it? or is this the indie label generation... or will we take the spoon fed crap that we hear every day on the radio...

af_thefragile

No. Infact i believe Ireland has a huge market for bands and artists. Just not enough talent. And even if there is talent, its not being developed. And there's even the lack of a proper infrastructure. Basically no proper radio or local music channels/shows to promote decent local bands. And there are a few many things that contribute to the whole dumbed down music scene. Though as i once mentioned before, all the Irish music scene needs is another Rory Gallagher to give the whole scene a good kick...

Oh and yes, the record labels seemed to have turned all their attention towards the x-factor and you're a star. But in this modern times, the lack of record labels shouldn't back hold artists from making good music. Look at places like california where there are literally tons of bands that are only supported by their local followings (which is pretty huge). Those bands have no record labels supporting them or anything. They do a lot of their promotion on their own and do fairly decent while keeping the local music scene good and alive. Unlike here.
Though another main reason is that there are very few people here who go to local gigs.

Well, i'm just really scraping over points in this post, i can go rambling for hours about why the Irish music scene is the way it is. But i'll keep that for sometime later.

craiginireland

tmango wrote: »

... back in the 80s/90s you could send demo tapes and hope for a reply from record co'..and they never really signed anyone. so do Irish musicians have to move out of Ireland to make it? or is this the indie label generation... or will we take the spoon fed crap that we hear every day on the radio...

Ireland as a country is too small. Local venues are generally smaller which means they make less money than their counterparts. Bands cant survive due to the size of the market.

Liam Byrne

af_thefragile wrote: »

Basically no proper radio or local music channels/shows to promote decent local bands.

I disagree. There are a number of stations that have shows to specifically promote and airplay local and Irish acts, and since it's a two-way street (no promotion for the act without the show, no show without new acts), they'd be delighted to receive a demo CD from you.

Nolanger

We're in recession so hopefully we'll produce some decent new bands consisting of angry young men with something meaningful to say.

raindog.promo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I disagree. There are a number of stations that have shows to specifically promote and airplay local and Irish acts, and since it's a two-way street (no promotion for the act without the show, no show without new acts), they'd be delighted to receive a demo CD from you.

I completely agree with this. Large music labels (for example) are businesses that want to make money. That's the bottom line.

Road Records has gone/is going out of business because people were not buying from the shop because cd's etc were cheaper in HMV.

Road Records put on in-store gigs and promoted the Irish music scene as much as they could. Now they're gone because the Irish music scene/public didn't do enough to support them and I think it'll be that little bit harder for Irish bands because of it.

It is a two way street if you are in it for more than just the money.

If it is just about the money, then as said in an earlier post
"attention towards the x-factor and you're a star"

af_thefragile

Its the whole circle...

The local radio/tv shows aren't doing well cuz the local Irish acts are poor and no one wants to listen to poor music, even if its local.
The local bands are not getting any better with their music cuz they're not getting much exposure anymore cuz of the dumbing down of shows and venues that promote local music. There's no filter left to separate the ****e from the very few good stuff.

And then there's the metal and punk bands who like to remain underground cuz if they become popular then they'ld become labeled as sell outs!

And maybe Irish musicians have become to lazy to come up with anything good (good is a very subjective term though). Its the same poor Indie and Rock rip-off bands you hear everywhere in the local scene. And you could also put a little blame on the majority of Irish audience who aren't much interested in listening to much new music besides what's being played on the radio, hence nobody listens to the local band, even if its pretty good!
Also a little blame on myspace where now no one needs to go to local gigs to check out local bans, just check out the bands myspace and you can make up your mind whether the band is worth watching or now (and usually its not). And then most people have more fun at nightclubs than local gigs, hence thats their preference and no one goes to watch the local gigs. But then again you can blame the bands for not being worth listening to!

Its all a big cycle.
And as i mentioned before, all we need is another Rory Gallagher to break the cycle. A band that is not another cheap rip off, nor has it gone so "avant-garde" that you'ld rather listen to cats fighting!

raindog.promo

I'm agreeing with a lot of what you say but I'm getting quite sick of this opinion that "the local Irish acts are poor" There's a lot of good music out there and a lot of bad, don't be so ready to tar with the same brush.

af_thefragile

raindog.promo wrote: »

I'm agreeing with a lot of what you say but I'm getting quite sick of this opinion that "the local Irish acts are poor" There's a lot of good music out there and a lot of bad, don't be so ready to tar with the same brush.

Yes, i agree there is a lot of good music too.
But i'ld also have to say there are very few bands that have the potential to actually make it big. Many other bands are good, but they don't have that thing which makes you want to listen to them more than a popular band.

I maybe coming off as harsh towards the local bands but sadly thats how it works. Being good is not enough. Being really good is also not enough. For a band to get somewhere, it needs to have the capability to make you sit (or stand) and listen to them, go to their gigs and buy their cds.
An example of an excellent Irish band is God is an Astronaut. They can be compared with the likes of big acts like Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada etc.

There aren't many other Irish bands that I could compare with big acts. A lot of you may disagree, but i'm just very opinionated with my music. And also maybe cuz of the fact i'm not a big fan of Indie music and hence i just sign off most Indie bands I come across.

Though i'll say there are a few Irish bands that do have the potential of getting somewhere as long as they can manage to hold it together. Like there was this surf band i came across a while ago which was quite good. But then again, i'ld rather listen to The Ventures for good surf music.
And this is what I'm saying that most Irish bands lack. They are good but they're not good enough. I know a couple of unsigned American and Australian bands that are absolutely amazing and i'ld instantly buy their CD if i could find them in stores here. I can't quite say that bout most Irish bands.

Liam Byrne

af_thefragile wrote: »

The local bands are not getting any better with their music cuz they're not getting much exposure anymore cuz of the dumbing down of shows and venues that promote local music

See earlier post.

af_thefragile wrote: »

And you could also put a little blame on the majority of Irish audience who aren't much interested in listening to much new music besides what's being played on the radio, hence nobody listens to the local band, even if its pretty good!

There's some truth in this, with the listenership for shows that promote new acts being a little too specialised for my liking......they're missing out, but they'd somehow prefer to listen to ringtone rubbish from the U.S and X-factor.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Also a little blame on myspace where now no one needs to go to local gigs to check out local bans, just check out the bands myspace and you can make up your mind whether the band is worth watching or now (and usually its not).

You had me until you threw in the bit in bold. I could name about 30 acts on MySpace that are well worth checking out if they're on in your area.

Here's just a few that aren't the predictable "indie/alternative":

• Nell Bryden (IRL/US hybrid - brilliant live)
• The Truth (was wowed by an acoustic session, dying to see them live)
• Dash, Inc (really good stuff)
• Joe Echo (brilliant live)
• Failing Earth
• Bailer
• Neev
• Wokajo
• Rory
• Luan Parle
• Mick Flannery
• Wallis Bird

af_thefragile wrote: »

And then most people have more fun at nightclubs than local gigs, hence thats their preference and no one goes to watch the local gigs. But then again you can blame the bands for not being worth listening to!

A decent live gig is FAR better than the same-old, same-old rubbish at an overpriced dingy nightclub. Unfortunately the brain-dead X-factor generation won't go, and likewise those who reckon all new bands are "indie" & "grunge rock" won't want to go.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its all a big cycle.

Agreed. And we need to break it. I've been lobbying for getting general, daytime airplay for the better demos and acts, but it's a tough call, because of the ringtone generation.

Red Sleeping Beauty

tmango wrote: »

... back in the 80s/90s you could send demo tapes and hope for a reply from record co'..and they never really signed anyone. so do Irish musicians have to move out of Ireland to make it? or is this the indie label generation... or will we take the spoon fed crap that we hear every day on the radio...

I think Phil said something about having to go to London to get anywhere, it might be this interview....

I've not a clue what the Irish music scene is like. Everytime I throw my head in a venue's door to have a gander at the posters nothing appeals to me , apparently Road Records was supporting small local independant bands - I'm outa the loop so I don't know of them.

The radio stations are all shite - Phantom's gone to hell so no respite there and as some have said there is a bit of an indie ghetto going on , here and in England,Scotland,Wales.

Ireland's had a good few big-ish gigs in the last few years (REM's "rehearsals" ; Bruce Springsteen's Seeger Sessions gig dvd). I don't know if there's a scene or not but I sure to hell ain't involved in it.

af_thefragile

Liam Byrne wrote: »

See earlier post.



There's some truth in this, with the listenership for shows that promote new acts being a little too specialised for my liking......they're missing out, but they'd somehow prefer to listen to ringtone rubbish from the U.S and X-factor.



You had me until you threw in the bit in bold. I could name about 30 acts on MySpace that are well worth checking out if they're on in your area.

Here's just a few that aren't the predictable "indie/alternative":

• Nell Bryden (IRL/US hybrid - brilliant live)
• The Truth (was wowed by an acoustic session, dying to see them live)
• Dash, Inc (really good stuff)
• Joe Echo (brilliant live)
• Failing Earth
• Bailer
• Neev
• Wokajo
• Rory
• Luan Parle
• Mick Flannery
• Wallis Bird

A decent live gig is FAR better than the same-old, same-old rubbish at an overpriced dingy nightclub. Unfortunately the brain-dead X-factor generation won't go, and likewise those who reckon all new bands are "indie" & "grunge rock" won't want to go.

Agreed. And we need to break it. I've been lobbying for getting general, daytime airplay for the better demos and acts, but it's a tough call, because of the ringtone generation.

Cheers for the list, i'll check out those bands sometime.

And i do always prefer going to gigs than nightclubs. Infact i'm not a nightclub person at all, the music is crap, the crowd it crap, it just doesn't appeal to me. Though i've only been to a few local gigs, most of them were pretty bad. Its usually the case that even if they've got good music, their lyrics seem to be written by a 12yr old and I generally don't like bands with crap lyrics, even if their music is brilliant.

I had an idea a few weeks back about setting up a website or even a youtube channel where you could give a brief news of whats going on in the Irish music scene and then maybe once a week showcase one local band with an interview with them and play one of their best song (or if they've taken the effort to make some sorta music video).
If done well, it could give people an easy access to what's going on in the local scene and listen to the local bands by just checking out the youtube show once a week or something or go to the website for more info...
Instead of them having to search though the endless crap on myspace and bebo to find a good band. We could just do it for them by selecting the best bands every week to showcase their music.

This could give the general population a good idea about whats going on in the local scene, give the good bands some recognition and promotion, sort out the good bands from the crap bands and might also incite the crap bands to work harder to become good so that they can get showcased on the show. And all this should finally add some life into the local scene.

nyarlothothep

Setting up a youtube channel would be a good idea. The problem with the Irish music scene is that no one is doing anything different. Not a big surprise, the country is so small and the history behind it, its natural that the music scene reflects the wider culture, in being conservative and insular. I mean there are very very few bands that take risks, a lot of bands just play three chord tricks, simple arrangements, try to get the crowd going with a fast 4/4 beat, nothing wrong in that, but it leads to a lot of sameness. Although I accept a lot of bands across the world fit into that mould. Could you imagine Marilyn Manson taking off here?

Rock Dog

-NO IRELAND IS NOT A CUL DE SAC FOR BANDS AND HERES WHY.AS AN AVID FOLLOWER OF THE IRISH MUSIC SCENE TO ME IT SEEMS THAT IRISH BANDS ARE GETTING SIGNED ON THE BASIS OF BEING WELL CONNECTED WITHIN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY RATHER THAN BEING TALENTED.THE LAST GREAT BANDS THAT FLEW THE FLAG FOR IRELAND INTERNATIONALLY WERE THE CRANBERRIES AND ASH. -OF ALL THE MUSIC SCENES DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS(THIS INDIE MUSIC HAS BEEN THE MOST BARREN PERIOD FOR IRISH ROCK) ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON THE GREAT SUCESSES OF YESTER YEARS eg VAN MORRISON,THIN LIZZY,RORY GALLAGHER etc NO BAND IN THIS COUNTRY COMES CLOSE TO THE INSPIRATION THESE BANDS CREATED.
-SO WHEN THE NEXT CRAP TALENTLESS BAND GETS SIGNED AND COMES TO A VENUE NEAR YOU CHECK OUT WHO THEY KNOW.
YOU KNOW IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE.

phelixoflaherty

What did you expect? A big ego ramp

Monkey61

I think it's down to a mixture of lack of innovation, lack of gimmicks and lack of a youth orientated music press.

In comparison to the UK, young Irish bands never seem to sell themselves on image to the same degree. There have been a lot of bands over the last few years that had they been based in London, had a major style overhaul and some sort of gimmick, would be on the cover of the NME in a week and headlining Reading within a month. It seems easier to sell records and become well known, with a "cool" image going on and the backing of a trashy magazine that thousands of teenagers read. Irish bands seem less willing to stray from the meat and potatoes, four guys on stage in jeans and jumpers, staring at their feet image. Flamboyant and memorable front men/women seem few and far between.

Another problem as I would see it is due to the size of the country there is a distinct lack of specific music scenes in the cities. London, Glasgow, Manchester - go to any of these cities and every night of the week you can find a club night catering to your specific taste. Dublin, Cork etc just isn't the same. Metal, Britpop, Indie, all kinds of dance stuff, pop, hip hop, R'n;B, Rock, Industrial, Goth, Punk - there are developed scenes of the like that Ireland doesn't have the numbers to support. Because of this, bands seem to pitch themselves close enough to the mainstream because that is what the Irish market is. Over the years I've seen a couple of great bands who never managed to do anything because their genre was just too specific to ever build up a huge following. What's the use of being an industrial band in Ireland, there's never going to be enough people who are into it to buy your albums and go to your gigs.

Executive Steve

Nolanger wrote: »

We're in recession so hopefully we'll produce some decent new bands consisting of angry young men with something meaningful to say.

christ i hope not...

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its the whole circle...

The local radio/tv shows aren't doing well cuz the local Irish acts are poor and no one wants to listen to poor music, even if its local.
The local bands are not getting any better with their music cuz they're not getting much exposure anymore cuz of the dumbing down of shows and venues that promote local music. There's no filter left to separate the ****e from the very few good stuff.

actually i reckon the very fact that there is such an imbalance between the amount of bands and the number / average size of the venues is what conspires to keep the average standard up so high, since competition to get gigs is so bloody fierce!

af_thefragile wrote: »

God is an Astronaut. They can be compared with the likes of big acts like Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada etc.

no they can't.

Executive Steve

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You had me until you threw in the bit in bold. I could name about 30 acts on MySpace that are well worth checking out if they're on in your area.

Here's just a few that aren't the predictable "indie/alternative":

• Wallis Bird

As someone who was subjected to the guts of an hour of her caterwauling at the Tripod recently I can tell you with my hand on my heart that if you think she's somehow unpredictably "different" and not just another "indie/alternative" singer songwriter then... well, i rest my case really.. She seemed like a rather nice, if excitable young lady from her between-song banter though, and she's pretty enough, but if you'd really pay money to sit through the likes of that then the problem isn't with the x-factor generation it's with your ears.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A decent live gig is FAR better than the same-old, same-old rubbish at an overpriced dingy nightclub. Unfortunately the brain-dead X-factor generation won't go, and likewise those who reckon all new bands are "indie" & "grunge rock" won't want to go.

I refuse to pay good money to stand in the darkness watching a bunch of art-school rejects up on a stage covered in light bashing out derivative bobbins while the whole crowd stands there looking in the same direction up at the stage. To me that's the most played-out and boring form of entertainment i can possibly imagine; give me a nightclub over that any time

Aridstarling

Its not exactly a cul-de-sac, but it comes close for all but the most dedicated and talented bands. Which I suppose is how it should be really, you got to be prepared to work really ****ing hard for this. You have to believe in it, or else no one else will either.

I'd agree with the points about few great bands in the country at the moment, there are a few though, just take a little looking. Wallis Bird however I do not consider to be a great!;)

Also someone mentioned the "twelve year old" style lyrics used by most bands, I totally agree and its sickening. As someone who puts a lot of effort into lyrics (and everything else) I can't stand it when some secondary school drunkard is mumbling another cliche and everybody sings along...

Red Sleeping Beauty

Wanna show your lyrics ?

Liam Byrne

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

As someone who was subjected to the guts of an hour of her caterwauling at the Tripod recently.....

OK, so we disagree on one. Have you checked out the others ?

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

I refuse to pay good money to stand in the darkness watching a bunch of art-school rejects up on a stage covered in light bashing out derivative bobbins while the whole crowd stands there looking in the same direction up at the stage. To me that's the most played-out and boring form of entertainment i can possibly imagine; give me a nightclub over that any time

Very judgemental, considering you're equating the worst of the gig scene with the best of the nightclub scene......how come you didn't compare the "art-school rejects" with the "ring-tones with beats" or pseudo-R&B Americanised chart rubbish that's played in most nightclubs while you're queueing 10 at the bar for overpriced drink with teenyboppers who are drunkenly demanding their alcopops ?

af_thefragile

I'ld say in that list, apart from Wokajo, most of the acts were fairly average.
Especially the female musicians. There wasn't anything new there. Just more of the stuff you'ld hear in x-factor/you're a star auditions.
There were a couple of decent folkish bands though (like The Truth, Dash Inc).
And some horrid ones like Falling Earth (sorry, i just can't see how anyone out apart from teenage kids can like them!).

Wokajo were pretty good though. I'ld pay to see them live. I might also pay to see the couple of folkish bands i mentioned.


So there you go. Yes there are good bands in the country. But as i've been saying all along, they really aren't good enough to make much of a difference. What I wanna listen is a band I could compare with the likes of Radiohead, Bruce Springsteen, Muse or even Tool or NIN or Opeth or something for the heavier guys. I don't wanna hear more bands sounding like The Frames, Arctic Monkeys, The Killers or Biffy Clyro and sadly thats what i keep getting all the time.
And I know there are bands that are upto the level of those bands i mentioned, its just I and most other people in this country don't know about them and thats where the problem lies.


Oh and I'ld anytime prefer a decent gig over another cheap nightclub.
Guess i'm just not a nightclub person but i just can't stand the cheap music and the equally cheap crowd you find in most nightclub. Take me to a decent gig or a Jazz bar instead any day!!

And i didn't say God is an Astronaut are as good as Aphex Twin or Boards of Canada. They can be compared with those bands and i'ld say they're quite close to being as good as Boards of Canada or maybe 65daysofstatic. Aphex Twin is in another world all to himself!

Executive Steve

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Very judgemental, considering you're equating the worst of the gig scene with the best of the nightclub scene......how come you didn't compare the "art-school rejects" with the "ring-tones with beats" or pseudo-R&B Americanised chart rubbish that's played in most nightclubs while you're queueing 10 at the bar for overpriced drink with teenyboppers who are drunkenly demanding their alcopops ?

i'm not really - the ringtone rnb scene isn't for me, it's for people who don't really have anything htat could be described as "taste" when it comes to music - the target audience for snow patrol / rihanna / type stuff; i think we'll both agree that we're not really likely to run into the likes of them in either of our haunts of choice...

was i being perjorative? perhaps - but the fact remains that it could be jimi hendrix up on a stage there and i'd still dislike the performance dynamic.. fair enough if it's a seated gig and you're actually ablee to play close attention to musicianship and there's a proper atmosphere onducive to focused listening - a gig venue where everyone's standing on a sticky floor gazing up at some earnest beardy guy with a guitar won't qualify for that in 99.9999% of cases.

plus lets face it, wiring up a few bits of wood and metal of varying acoustic qualities and chucking them throuhg a stack of amps is not exactly conducive to good quality sound - all tinny trebley harshness... every rock band i've ever seen - metal, indie whatever - has left me with ringing ears despite the fact that volume generated by the generally fourth rate soundsystems that get used is usually far from loud...

Red Sleeping Beauty

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

plus lets face it, wiring up a few bits of wood and metal of varying acoustic qualities and chucking them throuhg a stack of amps is not exactly conducive to good quality sound - all tinny trebley harshness... every rock band i've ever seen - metal, indie whatever - has left me with ringing ears despite the fact that volume generated by the generally fourth rate soundsystems that get used is usually far from loud...

Lots of bands need to boost their mids

raindog.promo

To 11?

Seriously though, Sound engineering courses are pumping out at least 100 sound engineers a year in Ireland, so there's a lot of talent out there behind the desks.

When I was in a live band, I never had a problem with sound engineers as regards sound quality. Most were easy to get on with too. One or two were obnoxious pr1cks, but that's to be expected in all walks of life.

Red Sleeping Beauty

No no, not to 11 but boost them mids up a bit on the amps
I love teh mids

all the stars

tmango wrote: »

so do Irish musicians have to move out of Ireland to make it?

Yes. For any music other than singer song-writer or rock band it seems so.
I'm into r'n'b/soul singing/writing and have been sending applications and been in contact with nearly 100% only uk agency's and all that.

Up until (actually) yesterday i haven't had a positive step in any direction here.
However, hopefully if things go right that will change -
Ireland, for such a small country is very limited in the music it considers acceptable commercially from their own.
50p and all gets played all day but very little irish hip hop at all.. or any irish r'nb artists... however, thankfully Laura Izabor is gettin played - but that lady is doing it years, nd its only lately she's getting any recognition here at home.

There is LOADS of exceptional talent here in every genre, just very little support/outlet for it

tmango

wow i did not think I would get a reply from that subject but if you step back and take a look at our up coming artist they do need as much support as they can get ... what do u think about an top 40 Irish chart meaning only for Irish upcoming and big bands?
thanks for your reply

.

af_thefragile

^That would be a really good idea.
But you've got to make sure you've got a fair group of people to review and rate the bands in the top 40 charts.
Like making sure there are people not just interested in indie but metal, punk, blues etc. to be able to rate the bands. Or else you'll again end up with a top 40 indie/rock bands list with pretty much all the bands sounding the same.


And i will not disagree for a minute that Ireland doesn't have talent. I met an amazing busker in Galway last night and he was astonishing. He said he's got a band and played an original song too which was pretty good and pretty musically complex too. Though it didn't seem like he had a very stable running band. Also he was speaking about how you make **** all money playing live gigs and you'ld make much more money just busking on the street.

You can see there are a few problems in there. Firstly there are bands but they're not very stable cuz people have jobs, the band stuff only becomes something of an occasional side thing. Second no one can make a living by being in a band alone.

Liam Byrne

The latest one I've come across is a solo+session outfit called The Truth - SERIOUSLY class voice...... http://www.thetruth.ie

af_thefragile

^You did mention them in that list. They're pretty good. I quite liked em. Would like to see em something. A bit of old school rock, eric clapton, bruce springsteen stuff going on there...

Liam Byrne

They were on in Baker Place last night, but the album launch is in Dolan's at the end of the month......well worth a visit, I'd say (except I'll be working that night :P )