Renewable power generation

emcor

Further to announcment regarding eirgrid investment programme on grid infrastructure and possible €100M to further interconnection projects has anyone got hopes/dreams/plans for development of or investment in renewable generation projects wind,wave,biomass etc?

godtabh

emcor wrote: »

Further to announcment regarding eirgrid investment programme on grid infrastructure and possible €100M to further interconnection projects has anyone got hopes/dreams/plans for development of or investment in renewable generation projects wind,wave,biomass etc?

Is there a problemwith the national grid and its ability to take on these new forms of renewable engery?

shakeydude

http://constructireland.ie/Vol-4-Issue-1/Articles/Renewable-Energy/Why-Irelands-electricity-market-must-balance-local-AND-global-transmission.html

I found this a good article on the future of Irelands national grid. The input of more renewables puts pressure on the response so the interconnector is vital for us

pauln

emcor wrote: »

Further to announcment regarding eirgrid investment programme on grid infrastructure and possible €100M to further interconnection projects has anyone got hopes/dreams/plans for development of or investment in renewable generation projects wind,wave,biomass etc?

I'd like to see more usage made of energy storage systems such as pumped water (e.g. Turlough Hill) and further exploration of other types such as compressed air. Storage systems help to stabilise the grid and maximise the benefit of renewable supplies such as wind by storing the energy until the grid needs it most rather than just when the wind is blowing.

I feel Ireland should be investing far more heavily in the development of wave and tidal energy capture, we have a real potential to be at the forefront of this technology if we just get our act together.

Realistically with the Corrib gas field coming on line and the new construction of the LNG terminal at Tarbert the vast majority of Ireland’s energy will be supplied by natural gas in the immediate future. New combined cycle gas turbine power plants are the only type of large scale generation technology being built at the moment in the country and after that a large replacement coal plant at Moneypoint is the likely next investment.

kearnsr wrote:

Is there a problemwith the national grid and its ability to take on these new forms of renewable engery?

The current transmission grid is very much centred on a main ring circling the cities of Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway and back to Dublin. The investment in wind farms away from the cities on the coasts and up the west/northwest causes the problem that the local grids in these areas are not able to efficiently transmit the energy as they were never designed to be feeding back into the main grid.
There is also the problem that the grids are too small for the amount of energy that the producers would like to supply and are therefore hindering developments. This is happing with renewable and fossil plants alike; the lack of grid capacity in certain areas is causing problems for both sides.
Seperate from the lack of grid efficency/capacity unpredictable renewables such as wind/wave cause other problems for the grid as they need very careful management so that the countries supply doesn't collapse when the wind suddenly dies down. There is always the requirement to have other sources to supply waiting in the wings to take up the slack when needed.

shakeydude

Here is another paper on the benefits of the interconnector from the ESRI, I didnt real the full paper but it is on my to do list.
http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20081126152911/WP232.pdf

In regards energy storage I have been reading that Japan wants any windfarm/renewable development to construct a storage facility in tandem to mitigate the effects, something that Ireland will invariably copy in years to come when the chance has passed.

Pumped storage would be a good opportunity for Ireland to stabilise the national grid. A paper from UCC states that Ireland could meet 1,000MW of electrical demand from pumped storage Study of Electricity Storage Technologies and Their Potential to Address Wind Energy Intermittency in Ireland

From the Construct Ireland article the interconnector with Wales would hope to take advantage of the the Dinorwig Pumped Storage facility to meet rapid responses to demand in Ireland when the price is suitably high to export across the Irish Sea

fishdog

I'd like to see more usage made of energy storage systems such as pumped water (e.g. Turlough Hill)

Although Turlough Hill has its advantages, its net output is less than zero!

This is because it consumes more energy pumping the water up to the top of the mountain than it produces when the water flows back down again. I take your point that it is a good example of an energy storage system.

I feel Ireland should be investing far more heavily in the development of wave and tidal energy capture, we have a real potential to be at the forefront of this technology if we just get our act together.

It sounds like a good idea, but does it work successfully anywhere on a reasonable scale? One of the problems with the sea is its corrosive nature as well as the mechanical strain it can put on sytems such as this.

Storage systems help to stabilise the grid and maximise the benefit of renewable supplies such as wind by storing the energy until the grid needs it most rather than just when the wind is blowing.

I agree that wind is part of the solution, but only a small part.

The Danish are considered by many to world leaders when it comes to power generation from wind. Geographically they are more suited to take advantage of wind power, yet after over 30 years of trying less than 18% of their electricity needs is met by wind power.

pauln

Although Turlough Hill has its advantages, its net output is less than zero!

This is because it consumes more energy pumping the water up to the top of the mountain than it produces when the water flows back down again. I take your point that it is a good example of an energy storage system.

Agree 100%, you have to obey the conservation of energy law and there will always be losses that will vary with different storage systems. The huge benefit of storage systems with renewable's is the 1.) It is a renewable energy source your storing so if you have some losses they are not at a cost to the environment or fuel unlike the storage of energy from coal/gas plants where the losses represent burnt hydrocarbons and 2.) Storage of renewable's overcomes the instability of supply associated with them and gives the grid back the level of control they have over the likes of coal/gas plants that conventional renewable plant don't offer.

It sounds like a good idea, but does it work successfully anywhere on a reasonable scale? One of the problems with the sea is its corrosive nature as well as the mechanical strain it can put on sytems such as this.

It's in R&D, there are many challenges to overcome but i don't believe that any of them are insurmountable. Material and construction issues can always be overcome given enough time and the right backing. I see the tidal turbine in Strangford lough as the peak of a potentially huge source of renewable energy just waiting to be utilised. Ireland is in a prime location to do the R&D and subsequently become a world leading manufacturer of wave/tidal energy devices.
As you point out further down Denmark are a world leader in wind power and they now also have a world leading wind turbine manufacturing company in Vestas because the saw the potential early.

I agree that wind is part of the solution, but only a small part.

The Danish are considered by many to world leaders when it comes to power generation from wind. Geographically they are more suited to take advantage of wind power, yet after over 30 years of trying less than 18% of their electricity needs is met by wind power.

I agree wind is only one part of a larger jigsaw. I see wind, wave/tidal, hydro, biomass, and more advanced traditional fossil based plants as the way forward. I don't believe that fossil technologies can be dismissed outright as they are required, I just think that the renewable's should be maximised to their fullest extent possible.
The cheap price of oil/gas and the stability problems of relying so heavily on wind as a source of energy has restricted Denmark going further with wind. They also have biomass and incinerator C.H.P. well developed.

I just happen to have my wind power study notes infront of me and looking at the European wind atlas Ireland are at least on par and probably better positioned then Denmark with regard to wind resources. Couple that with the massive north Atlantic wave/tidal resource we have access to and we are excellently placed w.r.t renewable energy resources.

fishdog

I see the tidal turbine in Strangford lough as the peak of a potentially huge source of renewable energy just waiting to be utilised.

Last I heard the propellers had fallen off this during testing! This project it is still a long way off. I agree it is good to look at things like this, but at such early stages of design/experimentation I think it is too early to pin our hopes to something like this.

As you point out further down Denmark are a world leader in wind power and they now also have a world leading wind turbine manufacturing company in Vestas because the saw the potential early.

Yet they only generate 16% of their power from wind!

To make things worse we have the best wind on the west and most of our demand on the east. Our distribution network needs to be changed radically if we want to accommodate micro generation (such as wind turbines) and but we have no money! The necessary upgrade is estimated to cost €19 billion.

Couple that with the massive north Atlantic wave/tidal resource we have access to and we are excellently placed w.r.t renewable energy resources.

Sure, I agree that the possibility is there. It just has to be developed, and we are running out of time and money.

The Greens plan that by 2020 we will generate 40% of our power from renewables. At the moment we are at about 3%. All of these ideas are great in theory, but in practice it is just not so simple.

I believe that like the French we will be nuclear within 25 years.
There is no other viable option.

pauln

Last I heard the propellers had fallen off this during testing! This project it is still a long way off. I agree it is good to look at things like this, but at such early stages of design/experementation I think it is too early to pin our hopes to something like this.

Yip one blade did. What happened was that when they were assembling it out in the Lough the blade hit against the support and was weakened leading to subsequent failure. It's very difficult to assemble a conventional wind turbine in even a light breeze, doing that on a floating barge in strong currents is even harder and unfortunately they still have to work on the technique a bit.

Yet they only generate 16% of their power from wind!

To make things worse we have the best wind on the west and most of our demand on the east. Our distribution network needs to be changed radicaly if we want to accomidate micro generation (such as wind turbines) and but we have no money! The necessary upgrade is estimated to cost €19 billion.

On 10 January last Ireland set a new record for wind generation at 922MW, or 20.48% of the peak demand for that day. That's impressive for a country that has still to make serious commitment/investment towards renewables. Couple that 20.48% with a few more sources of renewable and even if you only reach 50% that would be a major achievement.
Read the first post again, the grid is starting into a program of transmission system upgrades to facilitate the distributed generation throughout the country and smart meters are in testing at the moment. Along with the transmission system upgrades there are some distribution network upgrades also but I feel these and smart meters are actually not going to be of much use as there will be very very few people that we generate enough in home energy themselves to have a surplus to sell back to the grid.
Regarding the money required for these projects, it has already been set aside to complete the work, it is not government money in the traditional sense so is independent of any budget problems.

Sure, I agree that the possibility is there. It just has to be developed, and we are running out of time and money.

The Greens plan that by 2020 we will generate 40% of our power from renewables. At the moment we are at about 3%. All of these ideas are great in theory, but in practice it is just not so simple.

I believe that like the French we will be nuclear within 25 years.
There is no other viable option.

I don't feel as pessimistic about it all. The current financial situation is temporary and the energy sector is not experiencing the same level of downturn.
It's not only the Greens backing the targets, it's the government, ESB, EU and international policy that are driving the movement.
One technology, wind, which has revolutionised the sector in little more then 10-15 years is now a well proven in 'practise' technology. Add another and another and soon you have a very large practical solution to growing energy demand. Opposite to you I see it as quite simple, all that's needed is the commitment and funding.

We could end up with some Nuclear, it has it's merits as an energy source. I think if we don't end up going nuclear it won't be the technology that prevents it, it will be political and economic pressures.

If we invested heavily enough in renewables now then nuclear will not have a case in the future anyway and advanced fossil plant technologies will make up the balance.

fishdog

It's very difficult to assemble a conventional wind turbine in even a light breeze, doing that on a floating barge in strong currents is even harder and unfortunately they still have to work on the technique a bit.

I agree and I think it is a great idea, but it is too early to rule it in or out as part of the solution

On 10 January last Ireland set a new record for wind generation at 922MW, or 20.48% of the peak demand for that day. That's impressive for a country that has still to make serious commitment/investment towards renewables. Couple that 20.48% with a few more sources of renewable and even if you only reach 50% that would be a major achievement.

This is all good news, but overall it meets only 3% of our requirements which are increasing at a rate of over 3% each year.

The current financial situation is temporary

I hope you are correct!!

and the energy sector is not experiencing the same level of downturn.

Great to hear, I graduate in May!

It's not only the Greens backing the targets; it's the government, ESB, EU and international policy that are driving the movement.

I know, but I believe that increasing generation from renewables by 37% in 11 years is unrealistic. The Danes have been at this for 30 years and they are nowhere near this.

One technology, wind, which has revolutionised the sector in little more then 10-15 years is now a well proven in 'practise' technology.

Yes it has, but it requires massive investment and it only generates power when the wind blows within a certain range.
Typically wind turbines only generate on average about 18% of their rated power output.

Pessimistic = Realistic??:D
Perhaps I am just a sceptic.

all that's needed is the commitment and funding.

...and therein lies the problem!

I think if we don't end up going nuclear it won't be the technology that prevents it, it will be political and economic pressures.

I agree. I think that if it happens it will be because the price of electricity goes through the roof.

If we invested heavily enough in renewables now then nuclear will not have a case in the future anyway and advanced fossil plant technologies will make up the balance.

Perhaps, if we can afford to and have the vision to. We have a great tradition of not having a long term plan in this country.

I might sound very anti renewables, I'm not really. I believe they have their part to play and many of the "solutions" presented to us by "experts" (I am not referring to you!) have yet to be proven to be viable. I have been told recently that we have nothing to worry about because the Sahara desert will be covered in solar panels that will power the world (within the next few years). In theory it’s great.

pauln

fishdog wrote: »

I might sound very anti renewables, I'm not really. I believe they have their part to play and many of the "solutions" presented to us by "experts" (I am not referring to you!) have yet to be proven to be viable. I have been told recently that we have nothing to worry about because the Sahara desert will be covered in solar panels that will power the world (within the next few years). In theory it’s great.

I'm more of a realist then you might think. I think we're just different sides of the same coin. I'm working in this area everyday and I figure that I can build the fossil plants that destroy the environment or renewables that at least do some good and provide a long term solution (1-200 years+) even if not in the current form of the technology. A lot of what we discuss today may never come true and some other option that has not yet been developed may leap ahead. Either way I find it an exciting area to be involved in, developments in the fossil fuel technologies are well developed and the technology is not evolving as rapidly.

Best of luck with the graduation. It will be tricky finding a position in the current climate but if you show true interest and commitment to an area then you should always fair out ok.

The Sahara desert option might happen eventually but not with the current technology, between the problems experienced with AC lines over 1500km long, the environment, current cell efficiencies and the scale required the current technology just isn't up to it. But who knows what's around the corner, that's what makes things interesting

fishdog

I think we're just different sides of the same coin.

True.

Either way I find it an exciting area to be involved in, developments in the fossil fuel technologies are well developed and the technology is not evolving as rapidly.

I agree

Best of luck with the graduation.

Thanks!

if you show true interest and commitment to an area then you should always fair out ok.

I think so too. This whole area interests me.

between the problems experienced with AC lines over 1500km long

I think a DC link was the general idea like the Moyle interconnector.

But who knows what's around the corner, that's what makes things interesting

Exactly.

emcor

Pauln,
What are your views on micro-hydro?
With the necessary reinforcments to grid being put in place now what do you feel the optimum generation mix be?
With regard to compressed air storage - is this a realastic storage opion for eire, we dont have the natural geography? or is a newly built facility viable?
Keep up the good work.

pauln

emcor wrote: »

Pauln,
What are your views on micro-hydro?

Hydro in general I think is one of the best sources of energy you can get. It is predictable, controllable and has very little environmental impact when implemented correctly. That being said large scale damming of rivers such as what is happening in China and Brazil does have its problems. Ireland has maxed out all it's major rivers as far as larger hydro power is concerned.
I think micro-hydro will have a part to play in powering local housing or a small community if the source was good enough. The problem with micro-hydro and all the renewables really at the moment is the cost of the installation of the technology. Hopefully in the future with new developments and mass production these options will become more economically sensible.

With the necessary reinforcments to grid being put in place now what do you feel the optimum generation mix be?

It's impossible to say really. Being realistic natural gas will make up over 50% of our energy supply for at least the next 15-20+ years with coal making a comeback also. Oil will have disappered in the meantime as supplies run out and become more expensive. Oil is not as efficient or easy to use energy source as gas so power utilities are moving nearly totally to gas now.
The big question is what the effect of increasing fossil fuel costs and reduced oil supply has on the renewable market. There was a good article there recently stating that when oil was at $150 a barrel wind was really starting to be profitable and compete with the fossil fuels. When things return to these levels on a more permanent basis I see more offshore wind projects starting and a real interest in wave/tidal investment starting.
The ideal mix as I see it is as much renewable energy on the grid as is possible and economic in whatever form that takes. The problem is that the economics of it is tied to the price of oil and the global recession has reduced oil demand thereby pushing back the time when renewables will be able to come to the fore.

With regard to compressed air storage - is this a realastic storage opion for eire, we dont have the natural geography? or is a newly built facility viable?
Keep up the good work.

To be honest I'm not as up to speed on the compressed air storage systems as I'd like, do you have a link to any good articles on what is currently being developed? There is a new group just after being setup in Ireland to investigate this area though so it is being looked at.

Animal-Mother83

Pauln,

What do you think about the future of biomass?

I believe gasification is the only feasible technology to utilise this resource. But all the Irish government will do is co-fire it at peat stations at very low efficiency.

The new coal plant will also have to be gasification based in order to incorporate carbon capture and sequestration.