Hill running and total effort

Krusty_Clown

From the treadmill debate, something that I often wonder about running hilly routes: Do they actually require a greater amount of effort than a flat route?

The obvious answer is yes, but given that any loop-based route has exactly the same amount of uphill as downhill, and certainly in my case, whatever time I lose in the uphill, I make up in the corresponding downhill, and my heart rate drops to a level far below that of running at the same pace on a flat section.

I understand that training on hills will prepare me for hilly races, will exercise a different set of muscles, and will also give me some level of lactate threshold training, but am I wrong in assuming that I will run faster on a flatter course?

I'm not including IMRA races in this category, as they're a different beast altogether.

cfitz

I think you'll run faster on a flat course. Only exceptions I can think of would be:

if you always trained on hilly courses your body might not be used to running at a consistent effort, but even then I think you'd go faster on the flat

OR

if you're running style was different from most other human beings maybe you would be inefficient on flat surfaces.

Stupid_Private

What I've been told is that it'll make you stronger not faster. The best way to get faster is to run faster.

On the same theme as these questions - if you're running into a strong wind for half a run and with it for half a run, does the increase in speed with the wind at your back cancel out the loss of speed when you run into the wind?

shels4ever

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

From the treadmill debate, something that I often wonder about running hilly routes: Do they actually require a greater amount of effort than a flat route?

The obvious answer is yes, but given that any loop-based route has exactly the same amount of uphill as downhill, and certainly in my case, whatever time I lose in the uphill, I make up in the corresponding downhill, and my heart rate drops to a level far below that of running at the same pace on a flat section.

I understand that training on hills will prepare me for hilly races, will exercise a different set of muscles, and will also give me some level of lactate threshold training, but am I wrong in assuming that I will run faster on a flatter course?

I'm not including IMRA races in this category, as they're a different beast altogether.

Depends on the hills .

It is said that running on hills does improve your leg turn over which would then translate into faster running on the flat. I'll have to find the link again it gave different hill session and the benifits.

donothoponpop

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

From the treadmill debate, something that I often wonder about running hilly routes: Do they actually require a greater amount of effort than a flat route?

The obvious answer is yes, but given that any loop-based route has exactly the same amount of uphill as downhill, and certainly in my case, whatever time I lose in the uphill, I make up in the corresponding downhill, and my heart rate drops to a level far below that of running at the same pace on a flat section.

I understand that training on hills will prepare me for hilly races, will exercise a different set of muscles, and will also give me some level of lactate threshold training, but am I wrong in assuming that I will run faster on a flatter course?

I'm not including IMRA races in this category, as they're a different beast altogether.

You'll definitely benefit from the hills, and run flat course's faster. Every time you run uphill you have your pace, distance, and resistance from the incline (gravity). It's the energy needed to propel against this resistance that gives the benefit. Even if you were free wheeling downhill, you'll not "gain back" the energy expended from running up (and practically a lot of downhill running is done with the brakes on, ie. expending another type of energy).

I find a hilly 10 to be worth a flat 12, training benefit wise.

stmochtas

Stupid_Private wrote: »

What I've been told is that it'll make you stronger not faster. The best way to get faster is to run faster.

On the same theme as these questions - if you're running into a strong wind for half a run and with it for half a run, does the increase in speed with the wind at your back cancel out the loss of speed when you run into the wind?

I think I remember a table in Daniels book about this and his data indicated that the extra effort running into the window is not equivalent to that lesser effort required when running with the same wind on your back. If anyone has the book nearby they could confirm or not.

cfitz

Stupid_Private wrote: »

What I've been told is that it'll make you stronger not faster. The best way to get faster is to run faster.

shels4ever wrote: »

It is said that running on hills does improve your leg turn over which would then translate into faster running on the flat.

I don't think the question was about the benefits of hill training.

I think the question Krusty is asking is: if me and my clone went out training at the same time, one on a 10k flat loop and one on a 10k hilly loop, would we get back at the exact same time?

Krusty_Clown

stmochtas wrote: »

The extra effort running into the window is not equivalent to that lesser effort required

Freudian slip? Frustrating day in work?

Krusty_Clown

cfitz wrote: »

I don't think the question was about the benefits of hill training.

I think the question Krusty is asking is: if me and my clone went out training at the same time, one on a 10k flat loop and one on a 10k hilly loop, would we get back at the exact same time?

Well put. Also, would me and my clone expend the same amount of energy to cover the 10k?

mrak

sort of unrelated but on the topic of doing hill reps (as opposed to running on a hilly course). I find that doing hill reps is good for my running, but knackers my knees so I can't really do them anymore. It's the jog back down that does it, though maybe getting old and gnarly is a factor.

Daniels recommends doing hill reps on a treadmill for this reason (so you can recover on the flat). I don't really have access to a treadmill but if I did I think that I might start doing hills again.

(edit: btw on krusty's topic, the twin on the hilly course would definitely take longer and expend more energy. You don't get back on the downhill what you put in on the uphill. This is doubly true for the wind stmochtas - if you run at 6min mile (10mph) in a 10 mph wind, then when in your face it's pushing you at 20mph. When at your back it's boosting you 10mph-10mph = 0mph.. well not quite - it's making it a little easier to get to 10mph but not a whole lot.).

shels4ever

cfitz wrote: »

I don't think the question was about the benefits of hill training.

I think the question Krusty is asking is: if me and my clone went out training at the same time, one on a 10k flat loop and one on a 10k hilly loop, would we get back at the exact same time?

Ah ok , i get it now.. bit slow today..

cfitz

mrak wrote: »

Daniels recommends doing hill reps on a treadmill for this reason (so you can recover on the flat). I don't really have access to a treadmill but if I did I think that I might start doing hills again.

That's a clever idea. I've heard of elite athletes that have a car with them when they are doing hill reps - they get a lift back down after each rep. Even without knee problems, there is the issue of not being able to control the recovery time. A coach in a car or a really long continuous hill are possible ways of getting around that problem.

donothoponpop

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well put. Also, would me and my clone expend the same amount of energy to cover the 10k?

Okay thats a bit different, sorry.

The hill runner will use more energy when both run from point A to B, one taking and one bypassing the hill, both routes equidistant. The amount of energy used to ascend the hill will not be made back on the downhill. If you ran to the top of a cliff, then jumped off to the (soft!) bottom, you'd still lose some energy due to friction. When you run downhill, it's usually in a very inefficient manner, so you are using a lot of energy in "breaking" to stop your stride becoming uncontrollable.

tunney

cfitz wrote: »

I don't think the question was about the benefits of hill training.

I think the question Krusty is asking is: if me and my clone went out training at the same time, one on a 10k flat loop and one on a 10k hilly loop, would we get back at the exact same time?

Or moer accurately would the runs require the same number of joules to complete.

Supercell

Its very hilly around here and while running downhill is certainly a lot easier than uphill I find that after a long climb it takes me about a minute to get back up to speed on the flat, speed I'd not have lost if it was all flat.
Also if its flat I can keep going like the ever ready bunny for a long time, but the hills kill me especially the more tired i am, being a bit chubby doesnt help either!
Very steep downhills murder my shins so take them pretty slow so have to apply braking force which is burning extra energy of course.

stmochtas

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Freudian slip? Frustrating day in work?

5th floor office too. :eek:

cfitz

Supercell wrote: »

Very steep downhills murder my shins so take them pretty slow so have to apply braking force which is burning extra energy of course.

Do you find that helps? I find downhills hard on my body in general. But I always think that the more I let myself go naturally the less it will hurt my body. I imagine that slowing myself down has a kind or jarring effect...

Anyone know?

Supercell

cfitz wrote: »

Do you find that helps? I find downhills hard on my body in general. But I always think that the more I let myself go naturally the less it will hurt my body. I imagine that slowing myself down has a kind or jarring effect...

Anyone know?

It does, pain gets so bad in my shins I have to almost slow down to walking pace any faster and I'll be hobbling for a week afterwards.
There's one really nasty steep downhill here that leads down to the road just before Laragh (Oldbridge - Laragh road), I think its the reason i had to take three days off running a few weeks ago as my shins were wrecked afterwards.

That said i know its a definite weak point in my training so maybe I should focus on it, but I think that's for a point in the future where I'm much fitter and lighter, right now any running down there is just likely to result in injury

donothoponpop

cfitz wrote: »

Do you find that helps? I find downhills hard on my body in general. But I always think that the more I let myself go naturally the less it will hurt my body. I imagine that slowing myself down has a kind or jarring effect...

Anyone know?

I remember my first IMRA race, I scaled the hill and was coming down the muddy trail on the other side, feet sideways, slipping down in a controlled descent... was overtaken by a girl running at a weird perpendicular angle to the steep hill, flying down at full pelt:eek:

Since then I've learned to let go and make up time on downhills. The suggested poise is you lean slightly forward, take large strides, land on the balls of your feet, rather than "breaking" by landing on your heel. I've been told this is the best way to travel fastest by expending the least energy. Also it will actually injure you less too, as it limits the jarring "breaking" action on your ankles and knees. Seems to work on the mountains, I'm sure it would work on roads too.

T runner

Hi

I agree with the point made that loss in time running up hill is greater than the gain running down.

A hilly course will also cause you to expend more energy going up than down.

The most efficient way to expend energy is at an even effort. You can try and even it out but you wont fully succeed on a hilly course.

T runner

Supercell wrote: »

It does, pain gets so bad in my shins I have to almost slow down to walking pace any faster and I'll be hobbling for a week afterwards.
There's one really nasty steep downhill here that leads down to the road just before Laragh (Oldbridge - Laragh road), I think its the reason i had to take three days off running a few weeks ago as my shins were wrecked afterwards.

That said i know its a definite weak point in my training so maybe I should focus on it, but I think that's for a point in the future where I'm much fitter and lighter, right now any running down there is just likely to result in injury

If you do a hard long downhill for the first time in months you may get severe soreness in the legs (particularly quads). This is from eccentric contractions on the downhill causing microscopic muscle tear. After the first time your legs will stranghten and wont hurt again as long as you downhill once every 6 weeks)

The shins may be because you werebreaking on the descent. On the road maybe try to shorten your stride, funning as it sounds. (it will actually lenghten just feel shorter). this should stop the jarrring

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

What I've been told is that it'll make you stronger not faster. The best way to get faster is to run faster.

On the same theme as these questions - if you're running into a strong wind for half a run and with it for half a run, does the increase in speed with the wind at your back cancel out the loss of speed when you run into the wind?

I think if you get stronger from hills you'll run faster.

You'll run faster on a flat course than a course with equal amount of uphill and downhill because you won't gain as much on the downhill as you lose on the up as people have said above. Tracks aren't flat for nothing!

Similarly, as some have alluded to, if you run an out and back course and there is a headwind, you won't benefit as much when it's behind you as you lose when running into it, ie you'd be faster if there was no wind (as long as it wasn't too hot where the wind as a cooling effect may be beneficial).

Also running 2 abreast will make you slower than running on your own due to eddy currents - so if running with a friend take turns leading it out, rather than going side by side.

If you want to benefit by 'drafting' you have to get very close - within a metre. Get as close as you can without clipping heels (although if you clip his heels once or twice you'll know your close enough, do it 3 times though and you might get in trouble!).

shels4ever

Well for me i've just looked at my races the past while, i've run better(not faster) on harder courses with more hills, So people i've beaten on the harder course have beaten me on flat courses... for some reason the tempo breaking course seems to be better for me, not sure what this says.. maybe i'm takin git too easy on the flat.

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

Do you find that helps? I find downhills hard on my body in general. But I always think that the more I let myself go naturally the less it will hurt my body. I imagine that slowing myself down has a kind or jarring effect...

Anyone know?

Certainly some of the legendary hill runners in the North of England say to just trust your feet - they'll find the right place to go. If you are too cautious, you probably will heel-strike and maybe lean back, leading to a breaking effect, slowing you down and possibly increasing the eccentric muscle load with subsequent Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, aswell as I'd imagine increasing the shock absorption and so more impact through your shins, knees and back than if you just let yourself go.


Let yourself fall down the hill.


Edit: I remember talking to one of the very elite runners after the Bupa run a while ago - I mentioned that it's tough with the hills in the second half, and he kind of looked at me like I'd two heads and said 'you mean 3-8km'. I wasn't counting the Khyber pass as it was downhill. Lesson learnt.

gerard65

donothoponpop wrote: »

Since then I've learned to let go and make up time on downhills. The suggested poise is you lean slightly forward, take large strides, land on the balls of your feet, rather than "breaking" by landing on your heel. I've been told this is the best way to travel fastest by expending the least energy. Also it will actually injure you less too, as it limits the jarring "breaking" action on your ankles and knees. Seems to work on the mountains, I'm sure it would work on roads too.

Your bang on. The great fell/mountain runners are not those who can run up hills well but can run down the hills fast. The book 'Feet in the clouds' goes into this in alot of detail ( for you guys who are into mountain running this is a must read).
As for running into/with the wind, if I remember correctly there is approx. 3% difference in energy use between running with or against the wind. This changes depending on the wind speed.

Supercell

T runner wrote: »

If you do a hard long downhill for the first time in months you may get severe soreness in the legs (particularly quads). This is from eccentric contractions on the downhill causing microscopic muscle tear. After the first time your legs will stranghten and wont hurt again as long as you downhill once every 6 weeks)

The shins may be because you werebreaking on the descent. On the road maybe try to shorten your stride, funning as it sounds. (it will actually lenghten just feel shorter). this should stop the jarrring

You recommend increasing the cadance and letting the hill take me to where it may?

This down slope murdered my shins before and am extremely reluctant to do it again, I think you are recommending short fast steps?
That damn slope is preventing me taking a rather nice daily training loop and I'd like to be able to traverse it without undue pain!

figs

Stupid_Private wrote: »

What I've been told is that it'll make you stronger not faster. The best way to get faster is to run faster.

On the same theme as these questions - if you're running into a strong wind for half a run and with it for half a run, does the increase in speed with the wind at your back cancel out the loss of speed when you run into the wind?

Apart from all the energy spent running into wind, from a simple a maths point of view, you will always be slower when it's windy, given the same effort... This is because you are running slower for longer, so your average speed is less.

Say you run an 8 mile course, 4 mile out, and 4 miles back at 8miles per hour (I've picked speeds with which I can identify!!), then without the wind it will take you 1 hour.

Say the wind is blowing at 2 miles per hour. If there is a wind against you, you will then run at 6 miles per hour. The 4 mile out leg will take 40 minutes.

Running home again, you will have the wind behind you, so you will be running at 10 miles per hour, so the four mile should take you 24 minutes. So the total distance has taken 64 minutes... and this also assumes that you're not knackered after running into the wind!

Finally leaving cert applied maths has paid off!

Enduro

The key to running downhill is to relax as much as possible. No braking! This applies both on and off road. The only real difference with off-road is you need to watch your foot placement more carefully, but this needs to come naturally and thoughtlessly. I find that running down hills as fast as possible (Fartlek style usually, in my case) is good speedwork, and hugely help getting the legs used a high cadence, and strenghtening up the legs to deal with race day impacts (particually good for ultras, especially hilly ones).

mrak

figs wrote: »

Say you run an 8 mile course, 4 mile out, and 4 miles back at 8miles per hour (I've picked speeds with which I can identify!!), then without the wind it will take you 1 hour.

Say the wind is blowing at 2 miles per hour. If there is a wind against you, you will then run at 6 miles per hour. The 4 mile out leg will take 40 minutes.

Running home again, you will have the wind behind you, so you will be running at 10 miles per hour, so the four mile should take you 24 minutes. So the total distance has taken 64 minutes... and this also assumes that you're not knackered after running into the wind!

Finally leaving cert applied maths has paid off!

You have the right idea but your math is a bit off - you don't get 100% energy transfer between the wind and yourself.

On the wind energy thing Daniels has a chart on page 126 of his book. He says a headwind takes more off your %vo2 than a tailwind gives you. Reading a random point off the chart says that a 13.4mph (6m/s) tailwind gives about 9% increase in vo2. The same headwind gives a reduction of 17% in vo2. So an out and back in a 13.4mph wind would take almost 8% more energy overall than on a still day. Not sure how that would translate in terms of pace. Forgetting about the math and thinking of a familiar out and back course - if I was doing ballycotton on a windy day I'd probably expect that it would take me 1.5-3 mins longer (about 3-4%).

MCOS

Here is another article by RW which is an easy read but references a few other articles I've read http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-263--7519-1-1-2,00.html

It gave me a thought though..


Krusty, you are a a techie kind of guy. How about running your hilly loop at a given pace and take your average HR for the run (granted it will fluctuate up and down with hills) and your time for that HR.

Then head down to the track and run the exact same distance at that same average HR and see if the time is quicker?

I would imagine the hills would cause a higher average HR for the average pace of the run and that same average HR will get you around the same diatance faster on the track

Racing Flat

mrak wrote: »

Forgetting about the math and thinking of a familiar out and back course - if I was doing ballycotton on a windy day I'd probably expect that it would take me 1.5-3 mins longer (about 3-4%).

It's always windy in Ballycotton :mad:

uglyjohn

there are some interesting points about downhill technique here, i think i'll be giving them a try over the weekend. My regular 10k run includes two laps of a long hill of varying slope and the associated downhill.

in tems of effort and speed on a hill vs flat i'd say the easiest way to check is to look at serious athletes and how they set records....i dont claim to know a lot about the subject but arent flat marathons generally concidered "fast" marathons?
the world record is in berlin, i think that is a flat marathon...isnt it?
i also seem to remember people saying connamara is hilly compared to dublin and therefore aprox 10mins slower.

actually, is it possible to get a graph showing finishing times and number of people for races? i'd love to see where i came in DCM on the curve and see the distribution of times.

maybe thats another way to see if hills add time....get two major marathons with a similar number of serious athletes.....and overlay the distribution curves.....the flater matathon should be simiilar in shape but slightly to the left.....


kinda long winded post but i hope ye get what i mean.

Krusty_Clown

MCOS wrote: »

How about running your hilly loop at a given pace and take your average HR for the run (granted it will fluctuate up and down with hills) and your time for that HR.

Then head down to the track and run the exact same distance at that same average HR and see if the time is quicker?

16 Miles on the track?! That's 65 laps! I'm not Enduro!

Enduro

Something that I always funny about myself... I never ever ran a full lap on a track until my first 24 hour race... and then I ran 460 of them in succession. Definitely an odd way of doing it :eek:

T runner

Supercell wrote: »

You recommend increasing the cadance and letting the hill take me to where it may?

This down slope murdered my shins before and am extremely reluctant to do it again, I think you are recommending short fast steps?
That damn slope is preventing me taking a rather nice daily training loop and I'd like to be able to traverse it without undue pain!

Judge it for yourself. Taking shorter steps will mean you re not overstriding which can happen on a downhill. Also keep the knees slightly bent and stay relaxed. Picture how you normally run down. when your foot hits the ground is it out in front of you? If so taking shorter steps with slightly bent knees may mean the foot is under or slightly behind you cutting out the impact on the shin.

TBH if its a very steep hill on road you may be better leaving it out.

makker

Since then I've learned to let go and make up time on downhills. The suggested poise is you lean slightly forward, take large strides, land on the balls of your feet, rather than "breaking" by landing on your heel. I've been told this is the best way to travel fastest by expending the least energy. Also it will actually injure you less too, as it limits the jarring "breaking" action on your ankles and knees. Seems to work on the mountains, I'm sure it would work on roads too.[/quote]

Given that this is the correct technique for running down a hill, what is the correct technique for running up a hill?

Did my first serious uphill run yesterday and regretting it now as achilles is in bits

TFBubendorfer

makker wrote: »

Given that this is the correct technique for running down a hill, what is the correct technique for running up a hill?

Hold you arms higher, lean slightly forward, take shorter steps.

Slogger Jogger

Having ran the Ticknock winter race today I feel qualified to comment that Hill running is total effort Sometimes you feel like you're going so slow but its all relative. Definitely a hill race to remember particularly as it seemed to have its own micro climate and landscape (picture a flood moonscape?) going on up there.