Trying to Reduce ESB bill with Wind turbine

ArraMusha

There is some info on web about how difficult is was for people in ireland to get a wind turbine connected to their house. I'm looking for help in contacting companies who can supply and fit a 1-5kw turbine in Galway..Any help or link is much appreciated.:cool:

maxwell smart

www.qrsrenewables.ie supply and have a fitting partner. Can I just say that I was involved in a company selling these products, please research the size level of KW generation you will get, as there is actually very little chance of recouping the costs over the lifetime of the product.

I've not had any experience with QRS but have heard they are reputable.

baldieman

ArraMusha wrote: »

There is some info on web about how difficult is was for people in ireland to get a wind turbine connected to their house. I'm looking for help in contacting companies who can supply and fit a 1-5kw turbine in Galway..Any help or link is much appreciated.:cool:

Whatever about finding a suitable turbine, far more important is your site!
You need to have a clear view to the west and south west with little or no trees or buildings within more than 100M. You need to be more than twice the height of any obstacle.
Turbulence is the wind turbines enemy. Some sites may be windy, but unless its clean wind its useless.

ArraMusha

baldieman wrote: »

Whatever about finding a suitable turbine, far more important is your site!
You need to have a clear view to the west and south west with little or no trees or buildings within more than 100M. You need to be more than twice the height of any obstacle.
Turbulence is the wind turbines enemy. Some sites may be windy, but unless its clean wind its useless.

The house is on a hill, is un-obstructed westerly so should have no issues there. The things I'm interested in is the mains connevtion, how all that works and obviously the cost. Will have a look at the company above and there is also a company in Tipp called "Air Option" that have some good reviews....?

quentingargan

ESB has recently announced that it will pay 9c per KwHr for electricity sold back by micro-turbines. The CER (Commissioner for Energy Regulation) held a consultation process on that offer, and will make its decision on the price and conditions in the next two weeks, but either way it is good news that you can sell your surplus power.

The payback time depends on your site, as well as what you pay for your turbine. At present, domestic turbines are seen as a niche market and priced accordingly. Six years ago, I paid €20K for my 2.5kw turbine at home - payback time on that for us is in the region of 30 odd years. But you have to ask why an alternator, lampost, blades and inverter should cost more than the average family car. At the same time, I've seen some cheap turbines from China that were awful rubbish. One I put up at home seized after two days, and I've come across others that sheared off the tower, or shed their blades.

As part of my submission to CER on the ESB price proposal, I set out the payback times for various turbines on different sites and you can find that document here.

If CER raises that price above 9c, it starts to get interesting. Of course you have to factor in whether energy prices will rise during the life of the turbine, reducing the payback time dramatically! :rolleyes:

Quentin.

Gambler

ArraMusha wrote: »

The house is on a hill, is un-obstructed westerly so should have no issues there. The things I'm interested in is the mains connevtion, how all that works and obviously the cost. Will have a look at the company above and there is also a company in Tipp called "Air Option" that have some good reviews....?

I was looking at Wind turbines recently for our company's new building, turned out we weren't in a good spot for one but I did hear a rumour that Air Option were being sued by someone who had pre-paid for a kit but only the turbine showed up so you may want to make sure you have all your T's crossed and your i's dotted there (please note: I heard this from a friend who's into his eco stuff, I don't know for a fact what happened and if it was resolved out of court or not)

That turbotricity site linked in the last post seems to have a good bit of info on turbines in Ireland, seems to be worth a quick browse to get some basic info on what's involved?

Matt Simis

quentingargan wrote: »

The payback time depends on your site, as well as what you pay for your turbine. At present, domestic turbines are seen as a niche market and priced accordingly. Six years ago, I paid €20K for my 2.5kw turbine at home - payback time on that for us is in the region of 30 odd years. But you have to ask why an alternator, lampost, blades and inverter should cost more than the average family car.

Quentin.

Thanks for the ESB info and link to your suggestions!
One thing tho, I also question the cost of commercial Wind Turbines... but Im not working for a company selling them! Can you clarify exactly which component(s) are ramping up the price on a 2.5KW Turbine? As you state, virtually nothing in a Wind Turbine was invented for the purposes of wind power, most parts are modification of very old tech.

quentingargan

Matt Simis wrote: »

Thanks for the ESB info and link to your suggestions!
One thing tho, I also question the cost of commercial Wind Turbines... but Im not working for a company selling them! Can you clarify exactly which component(s) are ramping up the price on a 2.5KW Turbine? As you state, virtually nothing in a Wind Turbine was invented for the purposes of wind power, most parts are modification of very old tech.

My point in that submission was that if ESB introduced a supportive environment, we could manufacture wind turbines in Ireland because none of what is needed comes from an industry that we don't have here.

In many cases, what is ramping up the price is the short production runs. I would like to think that if domestic turbines became commodities, the prices would come down. That is beginning to happen with solar water heaters which sold for a ludicrous price a few years ago, and I believe it will happen to turbines too, eventually.

Grid tie inverters for a 2.5kw machine are expensive electronic gizmos, but if PCs were made in those sort of quantities, boards.ie would be a very exclusive club. The break prices for generators, controllers, towers etc., also require higher volume sales than we currently have potential for in Ireland, or even in the UK.

If ESB introduced a more generous feed-in tariff, we might get over those issues so that 2.5kw turbines could be sold and installed for a lot less.

One suggestion I had made to CER was to introduce a feed-in tariff at a higher level and bring it down as the cost of equipment falls. That worked well so far for solar PVs in Spain where the tariff has now fallen by 25%.

In the UK, there is a VAT rate of just 5% on a completed installation. That doesn't happen here, alas.

To answer your question, if they made as many wind turbines as they do Opel Corsas, then the price would fall dramatically. But which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Matt Simis

Yeah, figured as much. Please dont think I was singling you out or anything, just something Ive been wondering about.

Any comments on homemade Wind Turbines, not the little plastic ones, the big ones with custom made (Axial Flux Permanent Magnet) alternators and wooden blades?

quentingargan

Hi Matt,

Hugh Piggott at Scoraig runs courses on making these at various locations. He also sells books on his site that provide comprehensive info on how to build your own turbine. Brilliant! I'm all for them. A friend of mine has a 300 watt one that he made powering his house, but he now needs to up-size as he is getting into professional video work, but it has worked continuously for the last few years. Hugh has a few different models, variously made from Ford Transit brake drums or Opel Corsa brake disks. You can buy his books online.

I did a wind installers course at the NW Regional College in Omagh. One of the instructors on the course had made his own 8kw machine using wooden blades. Very Heath-Robinson, but worked well. You can see it on the LHS of the road driving into Omagh. Last time I met him he was experimenting with glue-laminating boards and setting up templates to carve the blades with a chainsaw.

Its not everybodys cup of tea, but for hobby hunters, or those fed up with the telly, you could do worse than spend those winter nights in the shed doing this. Of course most people reading this might be nerds like me who have to be prised away from their computers...

Matt Simis

I had read about Hughs work, but was half sceptical that it might be another internet scam (like running cars on water etc). Good to hear you lend some validity to it! 8KW... nice! :cool:

holdfast

A wind turbine will not a have payback unless as stated above the cost of electricity you can produced is less than the ESB price. At current prices of turbines this is not possible.

Look at ways of reducing you bills, only use appliances as required, switch to night saver and run tumble driers if you have to at this time. You will be surprised at how much you can save with good housekeeping over 10% at a conservative estimate. Look at ESB website to see or call it an energy engineer with a good background in such an area to help you. This will be a better investment of your money. As with the case any investment in renewable energy reduce as much energy usage before then invesigating or sizing system.

Cookie_Monster

Never mind turbines, check out this

Solar roof

Not the cheapest way to go but cool if you were building a new house

quentingargan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Never mind turbines, check out this

Solar roof

Not the cheapest way to go but cool if you were building a new house

Yeah. I have been involved in PV solar parks in Spain. With double the sunshine, the government there offers a feed-in tariff of 31c per KwHr for solar PV.

Payback time in Ireland with ESB offering 9c per KwHr puts this off the agenda for me. However, there are cheaper panels in the pipeline from Nanosolar and Advanced Lazer Photonics, both of whom promise panels at about a quarter of their current price. :rolleyes:

ManFromAtlantis

you mentioned u from galway. have u ever seen the decent sized wind turbine for a dwelling between craughwell and loughrea? (or is craughwell and oranbmore) anyhow u cant miss it on left hand side as heading towards galway on n6.
was interested my self but i think...............i'll prob wait 5 years as technology and cost will come closer
best of luck. let us know how you get on.

ArraMusha

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

you mentioned u from galway. have u ever seen the decent sized wind turbine for a dwelling between craughwell and loughrea? (or is craughwell and oranbmore) anyhow u cant miss it on left hand side as heading towards galway on n6.
was interested my self but i think...............i'll prob wait 5 years as technology and cost will come closer
best of luck. let us know how you get on.

Thanks for the advise above. Ya spotted that turbine on the Left coming into Oranmore from Dublin side...mite call in to him for chat... some sunny day,,,in case he sets the dogs on me.:)

Sounds like the cost overrides the long and short term benefits. I'll keep ploughing ahead with researching this all the same. I rang yer man in QRS yesterday, sound man with loads of useful information. Sending on some prices etc. The cost for a 'descent lump of a turbine' for domestic use, your talking upto 20k. Forget about it if your in a town,(unless you go for the micro 400w mickey mouse ones..ok short term for lights maybe) culchies like me with west facing unobstructed sites are really the only intended use..for the large KW ones now anyhow.
The idea of firing one together with a car wheel and a few lenghts of timber shouldn't be sneased at!

Cheeble

Be careful that adding a wind turbine doesn't put your ESB bill up. http://www.piccoloenergy.ie has a report that the micro wind turbine industry would rather you didn't read.

quentingargan

Cheeble wrote: »

Be careful that adding a wind turbine doesn't put your ESB bill up. http://www.piccoloenergy.ie has a report that the micro wind turbine industry would rather you didn't read.

I'm in the industry and I would encourage people to read this stuff (and I mention this in my own blog (here).

The reason why so many turbines under-perform is because they are over-sold. David Cameron was one of the high profile buyers of rooftop turbines - turbines only work in clean wind, and the eddies and turbulance around a house makes them totally ineffective. You can see the picture of his installation here. :eek:

Q

Connacht

Lads,
Am interested in all this wind turbine stuff, but just can't get my head around the kW and kWh figures.
Quentin, on your submission to the CER, you look at a 2.5 kW turbine with wind speed of, e.g., 5 m/sec. How do you then get the annual output of 3877 kWh/year ?
In my house, I consumed 5,000 kWh electricity in 2008. What would a 2.5 kW turbine run for me at an average wind speed of 5 m/sec ? Are you saying it would take care of 5000 / 3877 = 78% of my electricity requirement ?
Is there not something about having the tv, washing machine, dishwasher on at the same time ?
Let's assume good elevation, clean wind, no obstacles, W facing, etc.

Cheeble

Hi Connacht, the problem is, it's a complicated answer.

Firstly there's the whole question of annual generation (see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055483349).

Then you have to consider whether the wind blows when you need it to power your TV, kettle, washing machine etc.

In the Warwick study, a "600W" turbine, on a hilltop, near the sea, with no obstructions produced 439kWh in 11 months, that's a very good performance.

If it were a typical domestic setting, much of this would have been when the house was empty, or in the middle of the night, when the energy isn't required on site. So, you either store the energy in batteries, or sell it back to the grid. That's why an export tariff (selling unused energy to the grid) is such an important issue for the microgeneration industry.

If the wind starts blowing every time you put the kettle on, you're a winner.

Connacht

Thanks Cheebie, but there's a lot of theory flying around these various wind energy threads.
See my question in previous post.
What does a "2.5 kW" or a "600 W" turbine mean, in terms of ability to power appliances ? If indeed the wind is blowing, as you put it, "when you need it to power your TV, kettle, washing machine etc." then what will the 600 W turbine power ? If I have 6 x 100W bulbs on for the hour, then that's all it can charge ? Sounds pointless.

Cheeble

You're right that a turbine producing 600W will power 6 x 100W light bulbs. This doesn't just last for an hour, it will continue to keep the lights on for as long as the wind blows; all week if it's a windy week.

At 2.5kW, a turbine will boil a kettle continuously, or it will run all the lightbulbs, and the TV, and probably the washing machine too.

The benefit is that all the time that the wind is blowing, it's reducing your electricity bill. Even if it's not producing enough to run the appliances, it reduces the amount you need to take from the grid. e.g. if the turbine is supplying 400W, then you only need to buy 200W from ESB to keep the 6 x 100W lights on so your bill would be down by two thirds (from 600W).

quentingargan

Connacht wrote: »

What does a "2.5 kW" or a "600 W" turbine mean, in terms of ability to power appliances ?

Hi Connacht. Unfortunately, it is even more complicated, and open to downright roguery. A 2.5Kw turbine will produce 2.5kw at a certain wind speed. This might be 10 meteres per second, or 15. A few years ago, I installed a 2.5Kw turbine, which is rated at 15 metres per second. The same company produces a 6kw and 15kw machine which are rated at 12.5 m/sec.

I run a course on wind energy which includes a part on how to assess your site, although I will probably put this part of the course on the web sometime, as people need to be able to look back at this. Basically, you need the power curve for the wind turbine, and the mean wind speed for your site. You get that mean wind speed here but that will be at 75m off the ground. You need to enter this in the appropriate column for the "roughness class" of your land on a calculator here and then take out the figure for the height at which you might acutally put your turbine (usually about 11m to avoid planning requirement).

You then key all that in to a calculator (I use the one on Windpower.org here )

That will tell you how much electricity you will get per year. If you are lucky, half of that will displace electricity bought from the ESB for 16c per unit (or KwHr, which is one kilowatt of electricity running for one hour). The other half will be fed into the grid for which ESB is currently offering 9c.

Confused . I think most people who want a turbine just want one. If you have a good windy site, it will give you some satisfaction, and if electricity prices rise, you'll be laughing.

However, I met someone today who is buying a 6kw turbine on which he has been promised a 5 year payback. That is the sort of thing you see coming from frightened bullocks on fresh pasture. I think the word itself isn't allowed under Board rules;)

Mothman

quentingargan wrote: »

.

Basically, you need the power curve for the wind turbine,

Are the power curves produced by the manufacturer? How can one be sure they are anyway near accurate?

quentingargan

Mothman wrote: »

Are the power curves produced by the manufacturer? How can one be sure they are anyway near accurate?

Thats a point... Maybe I'll stop doing these things to ten decimal places... One thing that calculator asks for is the rotor diameter. If there are silly figures in the power curve, it will point this out (if it exceeds the Betz limit for theoretical output).

Q

pkmwgs

Hi Lads,
The best info and data can usually be got from someone with a turbine installed. my 6kw on a good site produced 13500kw in the first year. my second year with 6 weeks to go is about 10300kw. the site is the no one thing to look at. you should go speak to someone closest to you and get a true understanding of the whole system.
thanks p.

Cheeble

pkmwgs,

Your performance figures are excellent. What's your set-up?

Cheeble-eers

pkmwgs

Hi Cheeble,
its a 6kw proven turbine grid tied. the manaufacturers say on a good site you should get approx 12000kw a year. when the esb pay back for the excess power it will shorten the payback time.

mchammer

ArraMusha wrote: »

Ya spotted that turbine on the Left coming into Oranmore from Dublin side...mite call in to him for chat... some sunny day,,,in case he sets the dogs on me.:)

There are 2 new wind turbines located on the right hand side between oranmore and claregalway (in galway) just after the roundabout @ the quality hotel heading in claregalway direction?? just wondering what kw rating these might be and how was the planning exemption applied as you are supposed to have only 1 turbine per site!!! are the planning exemptions fairly lax?? anyone have experience with them??;)

doubledecker

Hi,,, I have a wind turbine on my double decker bus, which depending on where we park up, works fairly well charging up our batteries to run our 2 fridges, lights, stereo etc... But of course we are not tied into the grid, and so store our energy in our eight batteries, which also get well topped up each time we drive.

I would of thought a quicker 'pay back' time would be possible by buying a smaller and cheaper turbine, some batteries, a small inverter for tv/computer etc.. and putting extra 12v/24v lights in your house. Bypass the mains and keep it for 'emergencies'... if batteries are low and need recharging. Put the kettle on the gas ring, stop blow drying hair, get rid of electric heaters etc..etc..

You still get the satisfaction of watching the blades turning giving you power, have a lot of fun (and challengers!) setting it all up and be saving cash on your bills. Most hobbies cost a bit of cash, this one starts off pricey, but gets cheeper and cheeper as time and wind goes by....:)
Our turbine can be seen at

http://www.doubledecker.ie
Bryce

quentingargan

doubledecker wrote: »

Hi,,, I have a wind turbine on my double decker bus, which depending on where we park up, works fairly well charging up our batteries to run our 2 fridges, lights, stereo etc... But of course we are not tied into the grid, and so store our energy in our eight batteries, which also get well topped up each time we drive.

I would of thought a quicker 'pay back' time would be possible by buying a smaller and cheaper turbine, some batteries, a small inverter for tv/computer etc.. and putting extra 12v/24v lights in your house. Bypass the mains and keep it for 'emergencies'... if batteries are low and need recharging. Put the kettle on the gas ring, stop blow drying hair, get rid of electric heaters etc..etc..

http://www.doubledecker.ie
Bryce

That's great. We also put 24V lighting in our house - 12V halogens wired in series and some incandescent. We also managed to get 24V CFLs, which are pricey. You have to be careful because the voltage can often get up to 29V while charging which blew a few bulbs on us.

You also need to bear in mind that at 24V the current is a lot higher and DC should only be carried on stranded wire, not the solid copper normally used in house wiring.

Many appliances such as stereos use about 15V DC (so. does my computer) so we put in a different type of socket for 24V DC circuits and plan to use small DC-DC converters to run appliances that can run that way. Q

doubledecker

I think that's the way to go quentingargan,
I had a friend who set up a '12v room' in his house and saved 40 -50% of his ESB bill, by charging a few old batteries with a solar panel, just running basic stuff, using cigarette lighter charging leads for his computer, ipod etc...
Very easy to do, fairly cheap and lots of fun and you always have the mains as a back up.:)