Time to think again on congestion charge?

antoinolachtnai

Is it time to think again about a congestion charge in Dublin, both as a way of opening up a new revenue stream and as a way to reduce the traffic volume at peak times?

A benefit of the tax is that it would be 'avoidable'. Most commuters could avoid the charge by moving to public transport (where capacity is becoming available).

People who had to move around in the city for their jobs would benefit from the reduced congestion.

If the decision were made to go ahead and do this, what area would it make sense to impose the charge on to get the best effect?

What other conditions would have to be in place?

Gumbo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Is it time to think again about a congestion charge in Dublin, both as a way of opening up a new revenue stream and as a way to reduce the traffic volume at peak times?

A benefit of the tax is that it would be 'avoidable'. Most commuters could avoid the charge by moving to public transport (where capacity is becoming available).

People who had to move around in the city for their jobs would benefit from the reduced congestion.

If the decision were made to go ahead and do this, what area would it make sense to impose the charge on to get the best effect?

What other conditions would have to be in place?

i agree with the public transport thing, but what happens if lots of people ditch their cars in favour of public transport then CIE cut the routes etc etc

i dont think a congestion charge can be brought in until the public transport system is up to scratch and permantly fixed ie. no risk of routes boing scrapped etc

at this moment in time, the bus i get everyday could be scrapped with the new cut backs.

paulm17781

Perhaps is T21 ever gets implemented and we keep investing in public transport then we could look at it. With PT the way it is now, it would just be another way to fleece the public.

Morlar

Motorists are taxed enough as it is. Also this would be unfair as some people do not live direclty on bus/dart routes or have an inneficient level of service. There are also times when the car is required for moving things/carrying lots of shopping/cant wait 40+ mins in the rain for the next bus or whatever. I think the govt are already making more than enough from motorists in this country.

Also a congestion charge will hit the poorest levels of society the most - people will inevitably miss paying on time and be hit with large un-payable fees which will increase in mutiples before being handed off to debt collection agencies causing misery for many.

dmeehan

there is currently a tax/levy on car parking spaces provided by employers
(has this even been implemented yet?)

do other posters think that this would have some similar kind of effect as a congetion charge, but obviously not as great an effect?

AlekSmart

Yes excellent idea,however it requires a level of intelligence,understanding and application not usually to be found in Irish Public Administration.

We need to be careful of pointing to London and nodding sagely...remember that under Mayor Livingston there was a hitherto unheard of Increase in Public Transport Investment (mainly Bus Based) through Central London....New Buses,New Routes,(deployment of the Oystercard in a method which essentially made Bus use FREE to those purchasing a Travelcard)

In short London`s Administrators THOUGHT about the entire process BEFORE implimenting it....thus far there is little to show that our people are doing the same.

It should be noted,however,that as the years passed the ACTUAL effictiveness of the CC (Congestion Charge) has tended to become diluted as the benefits of Boom accrued to all sectors of the community...quite what the effects of BUST will be is yet to become apparent.

In short,A good idea in Principle...but an awful pity we don`t do Principles here

MaceFace

Whats the big deal about congestion? Who does it annoy? Commuters!
If the commuters are sick of congestion, then they can move to public transport. You don't need to force them to do something they don't want to do.

Gumbo

MaceFace wrote: »

Whats the big deal about congestion? Who does it annoy? Commuters!
If the commuters are sick of congestion, then they can move to public transport. You don't need to force them to do something they don't want to do.

what about commuters that have no direct/half decent access access to public transport?

paulm17781

MaceFace wrote: »

Whats the big deal about congestion? Who does it annoy? Commuters!
If the commuters are sick of congestion, then they can move to public transport. You don't need to force them to do something they don't want to do.

What about the people on buses who are being held up by those in cars?

antoinolachtnai

would a park-n-ride with well sheltered waiting facilities and express buses help?

Morlar

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

would a park-n-ride with well sheltered waiting facilities and express buses help?

They would need to find a suitable location to buy up a sufficiently large plot of expensive land then provide safe/well lit carparking for people to use.

Then tied off with a regular and efficient bus service to and from.

That would require investment and planning and so I cant see it happening.

In my experience the only time schemes like that work is in the case of smaller towns like say Oxford or in a Dublin context the long term car park at the airport.

A city the size of Dublin would have problems with this - even say a park and ride scheme for Dublin South, South West South East and so on - they would either need to be massive or everywhere. Also congestion getting into and out of the car parks - then rush hour commuter congestion would be a factor too. I think it would be do-able but would need to be comprehensively planned out from the start and I would be surprised if that was the case.

If something like that was brought in inevitably I think the next short sighted/desperate/green including govt would try to turn it into a money making venture either by penalising those who choose not to use it or charging those who would.

John_C

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

would a park-n-ride with well sheltered waiting facilities and express buses help?

A lot of people seem to organise their own informal park and ride. The residential roads all along the 46a have commuters parking and getting the bus each morning. I'm sure it's the same along the other fast routes.

petergfiffin

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Is it time to think again about a congestion charge in Dublin, both as a way of opening up a new revenue stream and as a way to reduce the traffic volume at peak times?

I don't think you can do both because as you reduce congestion you also reduce your revenue stream so you end up having to charge more and more to make up for the shortfall. I think you'll see congestion reducing over the next while anyway due to outside forces.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Most commuters could avoid the charge by moving to public transport (where capacity is becoming available).

Public transport isn't really a viable option for many peple, also Dublin Bus are reducing capacity. Aswell as that, if it costs me 5Euro for a congestion charge but it costs be 4Euro each day for the bus I don't see any real incentive to leave the car at home, not unless I'm going to be getting to work a hell of a lot quicker i.e. direct routes, I know you could say with lower congestion that'll happen but you would need to cut congestion by a HELL of a lot

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

People who had to move around in the city for their jobs would benefit from the reduced congestion.

What about the additional cost for entering the city? Would you make commercial vehicles exempt? Don't forget a lot of people are using "commercial" vehicles, especially jeeps as their main transport.

I'm totally against a congestion charge for Dublin until such time as the Government can prove they have actually taken other steps to reduce congestion by other means, otherwise it's just another example of them expecting everybody else to buy them out of their problems and at the same time making money on the back of other people's misery. The fact is you need only look to the Dart,Luas & buses on QBCs in the morning to see people will flock to good quality public transport.

antoinolachtnai

I wouldn't make commercials exempt (except at night, the same as everybody else).

For a busy commercial, the cost of the charge wouldn't be that big, relative to the cost of diesel.

Re Park and Ride - land is now something that we have an awful lot of, and development land just isn't expensive anymore. A five or ten year lease could be very inexpensive indeed.

What are the reasons that public transport isn't viable for many people for their commute?

Morlar

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I wouldn't make commercials exempt (except at night, the same as everybody else).

That would be yet another small way to make our country even less competitive for businesses to operate in . Additional transport costs are liklely to be passed to consumers.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Re Park and Ride - land is now something that we have an awful lot of, and development land just isn't expensive anymore. A five or ten year lease would be inexpensive enough.

Land is not as expensive as it was. That is a very different thing than saying that land is cheap. How many of these mega carparks would you expect to be needed in order to serve a city the size of dublin on either a daily or weekend basis ? Consider the run up to christmas when your working that out also. The space would have to be there constantly you cant really expand on demand when it comes to the size of a carpark.

Think of the size of the carparks required (or the amount of them) - either they would have to build upwards (which negates the idea of leasing the land) or they would require acres and acres and acres of land in one contigious block. This would be very expensive and of course the cost of this green measure would be passed directly back to motorists in some form or another.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What are the reasons that public transport isn't viable for many people for their commute?

Because it is not close enough to where they live. There is no shelter. The service is infrequent and or unreliable, takes too long. Not suitable for moving anything that a person is unable to comfortably carry. The bus is full of drunks or anti-social scumbags. Take your pick.

antoinolachtnai

Those are all good reasons that have to be sorted out first.

The congestion zone wouldn't necessarily have to cover the entire city centre. Not everyone would use the park-and-rides.

On the other side of the equation, it would save a phenomenal amount of money (60m per year by DB estimates) if buses could move at a reasonable clip through the city.

I think myself that congestion is more the cause of making the city expensive to live in than a daily charge would be.

MOH

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What are the reasons that public transport isn't viable for many people for their commute?

It's completely unreliable.

I get the DART to and from work every day. About 90% of the DARTs I get are late (as in, a minute or more after tha time they're due on. Not the 10 minutes+ that IR's stats are based on). I lost over 30 hours last year due to late trains.

I'd mainly use the bus at weekend or for Nitelink. With services being cut, my annual ticket is rapidly losing its value.

I'll be driving by the end of this year, and saving both time and money .

carsQhere

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What are the reasons that public transport isn't viable for many people for their commute?

For me, it's non existent in rural Meath.

I used to use thee train a lot (I was living in Drogheda) but had to move for family reasons. Even that was less than ideal. Try standing from Pearse St. to Balbriggan - about an hour on a packed commuter train - and see how viable it is.

Then Irish Rail bring in parking charges at the station. Talk about machine gunning whatever incentive was left.

A congestion charge would probably mean we move office to somewhere more competitive. Poland springs to mind...

Morlar

It would also be another reason for public sector unions to demand 'dublin weighted' salary increases.

Kipperhell

MOH wrote: »

It's completely unreliable.

I get the DART to and from work every day. About 90% of the DARTs I get are late (as in, a minute or more after tha time they're due on. Not the 10 minutes+ that IR's stats are based on). I lost over 30 hours last year due to late trains.

I'd mainly use the bus at weekend or for Nitelink. With services being cut, my annual ticket is rapidly losing its value.

I'll be driving by the end of this year, and saving both time and money .

I think you will be kidding yourself that you will save any money or time. I lived near a guy who claimed his trip was quicker than mine. Every morning I would pass him in traffic, I cycled. He claimed his trip was 30 minutes each way. I said mine was 45 minutes and somehow I arrived before him every day.

I spend about €350 on public transport no car/motorbike would be as cheap and it would take longer. If you could do rough prices and time saving comparisons I guess you will know for sure.

Congestion charges are needed as far as I can see due to the high number of single occupancy in cars. A congestion charge doesn't need to be brutal it can be gentle. It is possible to bring in a simple system with human operatives at a very affordable price.

HonalD

MOH wrote: »

It's completely unreliable.

I get the DART to and from work every day. About 90% of the DARTs I get are late (as in, a minute or more after tha time they're due on. Not the 10 minutes+ that IR's stats are based on). I lost over 30 hours last year due to late trains.

I'd mainly use the bus at weekend or for Nitelink. With services being cut, my annual ticket is rapidly losing its value.

I'll be driving by the end of this year, and saving both time and money .

Hold on a minute. You are complaining that the DART is one minute late....I think that you calling public transport "completely unreliable" is a bit rich! In fact, if all public transport is one minute late then happy days for all!!!!!!

Enjoy the drive....perhaps it's deserved!

petergfiffin

Kipperhell wrote: »

Congestion charges are needed as far as I can see due to the high number of single occupancy in cars.

Why not try car pooling incentives like most other countries where we could do things like allowing them to use buslanes, obviously it would require policing but would be a lot less controversial and more straight forward than congestion charging.

What is puzzling me most about this is people's assertion that we need to introduce congestion charging when we haven't tried a single real initiative to reduce congestion, have we really become so convinced in this country that charges are the answer to everything?? Why are we always so quick to jump to the stick without also introducing some element of carrot??

Don't forget also that the London Congestion system cost in the region of about £250 million and at most improved congestion by between 18%-30% (depending on time of the day), most cities seem to experience about 15-20% so the question is this....are you willing to pay at least €300million for at best a 30% reduction in congestion?? Remember also that London has a population of around 7 million

antoinolachtnai

How do you reckon it cost 250m? It makes a profit. Though I grant you, the overheads are high.

A 30 percent reduction in congestion produces a very big increase in speeds in practice.

Here is some detailed stuff about it.

http://www.itscosts.its.dot.gov/its/benecost.nsf/0/E62783F20D1895F48525730900682D06

uk is not the only model. Singapore has a more sophisticated system.

NewDubliner

kceire wrote: »

what about commuters that have no direct/half decent access access to public transport?

Property near public transport is now much cheaper.

We cannot expect public transport to service uneconomic locations, if we're to reduce the cost of public services.

We need to make this country more cost-effective. People need to live nearer jobs and community resources such as public transport so that we can be more competitive in the changed economic reality.

Carawaystick

NewDubliner wrote: »

People need to live nearer jobs and community resources such as public transport so that we can be more competitive in the changed economic reality.

Considering people moving house were taxed up to 9% of the cost of their new home in the boom and people are now in negative equity, and job security is poor so jobs may change after shorter periods of time, this idea of moving your family every time you change jobs should be killed off once and for all.

Run_to_da_hills

I have no problems with any urban congestion charge, it can be an effective source of revenue for both the Government and will inevitably keep unnecessary traffic out of the city, however if it follows down the same slippery slope as the UK and becomes a tool for a big brother police society hijacking the ANPR CCTV network I don't want to know about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6902543.stm

MOH

Kipperhell wrote: »

I think you will be kidding yourself that you will save any money or time. I lived near a guy who claimed his trip was quicker than mine. Every morning I would pass him in traffic, I cycled. He claimed his trip was 30 minutes each way. I said mine was 45 minutes and somehow I arrived before him every day.

I spend about €350 on public transport no car/motorbike would be as cheap and it would take longer. If you could do rough prices and time saving comparisons I guess you will know for sure.

Congestion charges are needed as far as I can see due to the high number of single occupancy in cars. A congestion charge doesn't need to be brutal it can be gentle. It is possible to bring in a simple system with human operatives at a very affordable price.

I've done the figures, a few times, and in my case, I save money by driving.

HonalD wrote: »

Hold on a minute. You are complaining that the DART is one minute late....I think that you calling public transport "completely unreliable" is a bit rich! In fact, if all public transport is one minute late then happy days for all!!!!!!

For a start, saying that a minute late for all public transport is fine is typical of the "ah sure it's OK attitude" in this country. A one minute delay every journey works out at over 8 hours per year. So effectively, an extra day's work for nothing.

Secondly, if you actually bothered to read my post, I said that 90% of the DARTs I took were at least a minute late. The average delay was closer to 5 minutes.

And to me, an average delay of 5 minutes on a journey that's supposed to take less than 25 is unacceptable, so yes, public transport is completely unreliable.

John_C

I was going down to the shops and had to wait a whole minute for the green man to come on. Walking is so unreliable.

Don'y get me started on the time there was a person in front of me in the queue at the check out!

Morlar

John_C wrote: »

I was going down to the shops and had to wait a whole minute for the green man to come on. Walking is so unreliable.

Don'y get me started on the time there was a person in front of me in the queue at the check out!

Did you have to wait 20 minutes for the next green man ?

If you happen to miss one DART by a minute the wait is often at least 20 mins for the next one unlike say the london tube. So the frequency of them is an issue too.

I think the notion of introducing a congestion charge is appaling, another economic suicide of a money grubbing attempt. This sort of Green initiative would damage our competitiveness even further.

At this stage we are about as economically competitive as mary harney is at the high jump, out of breath before even waddling her fat ass over to the start line and adding yet more charges to people and business (increasing the cost of living and the cost of doing business in Ireland) at this point is not economically viable.

London is the most relevant example & inevitably this would hit the most hard off the hardest. ANY kind of charge no matter how 'gentle' it started out as would inevitably be relied upon as a revenue stream and increase over time. As mentioned motorists in Ireland are already among the highest penalised in the europe/the world in terms of taxes and costs.

Car tax, VRT, fuel tax, road tolls etc are already astronomical especially considering the lack of return in tems of facilities.

AlekSmart

I suspect Antoin`s point was rather comprehensively answered by the assorted City and County Managers during their presentation to the Dàil Committee on Transport.

It emerged under questioning from some of the committee members that most of the Local Authorities had quite well developed plans for Rail based P n R schemes.

However the questioning also revealed that NONE of the Authorities had any similar plans in relation to Bus based schemes....that`s correct NONE...not a single Local Authority in the Greater Dublin Region had even considered such a scheme.

Fingal CC,generally regarded as one of the more progressive LA`s had and still has a sortofakindofa proposal before it for a Bus interchange around Pinnock Hill but AFAIK this remains merely a proposal with no actual work done on its implimentation.

So there we have it....the simplest,easiest to impliment and most adaptable of PnR systems did not even raise a blip on the screens of these high-ranking PROFESSIONAL Planners and Administrators....THAT tells us all we need to know without recourse to hiring in Deloitte or any more "Consultants"

HonalD

MOH wrote: »

For a start, saying that a minute late for all public transport is fine is typical of the "ah sure it's OK attitude" in this country. A one minute delay every journey works out at over 8 hours per year. So effectively, an extra day's work for nothing.

Secondly, if you actually bothered to read my post, I said that 90% of the DARTs I took were at least a minute late. The average delay was closer to 5 minutes.

And to me, an average delay of 5 minutes on a journey that's supposed to take less than 25 is unacceptable, so yes, public transport is completely unreliable.

I "bothered" to read your post, I just think your opinion is misguided. I don't see anyone else backing you up with agreeing that having the DART being 1 minute late is unreliable!

Perhaps you're spolit with having such a frequent service nearby and should try using other public transport modes.....in other areas of the city. You haven't said where you are getting the DART, but if it takes 25 minutes during rush hour and you think you can do better in a car + parking etc. then no-one will stop you - but don't start complaining about congestion next :rolleyes:

HonalD

John_C wrote: »

I was going down to the shops and had to wait a whole minute for the green man to come on. Walking is so unreliable.

Don'y get me started on the time there was a person in front of me in the queue at the check out!

If only there were no other people in the world, we'd have no delays :eek:

Aard

What about a congestion charge only for cars with one person inside? This would encourage car-pooling, which could half the number of cars on the city streets, and could make a manageable number move to public transport.

Morlar

Aard wrote: »

What about a congestion charge only for cars with one person inside? This would encourage car-pooling, which could half the number of cars on the city streets, and could make a manageable number move to public transport.

What about not charging people for driving their cars ? Dublin does not need a congestion charge for motorists anymore than it needs a pedestrian charge.

How would you enforce that 'congestion charge for cars with one person inside' ? Technically I mean ? One set of Cameras to record reg plates of cars passing through certain streets in a ring around the city + an adidtional set of cameras to capture a photo to record who is sitting in which seat of each vehicle - clearly showing each seat to be vacant ?

Technically I think that that would be even more expensive and a challenge - either that or re-introduce M50 style barriers in a ring around the city centre for all non residents.

Run_to_da_hills

Morlar wrote: »

How would you enforce that 'congestion charge for cars with one person inside' ? Technically I mean ? One set of Cameras to record reg plates of cars passing through certain streets in a ring around the city + an adidtional set of cameras to capture a photo to record who is sitting in which seat of each vehicle - clearly showing each seat to be vacant ?

Don't even mention it.

MOH

HonalD wrote: »

I "bothered" to read your post, I just think your opinion is misguided. I don't see anyone else backing you up with agreeing that having the DART being 1 minute late is unreliable!

Perhaps you're spolit with having such a frequent service nearby and should try using other public transport modes.....in other areas of the city. You haven't said where you are getting the DART, but if it takes 25 minutes during rush hour and you think you can do better in a car + parking etc. then no-one will stop you - but don't start complaining about congestion next :rolleyes:

You obviously didn't. Unless I'm misreading it myself, I can't see where I said the DART being one minute late is unreliable. I said 90% of DARTs I took last year were late by 1 minute of more. I'm saying being an average of 5 minutes late, per journey - that's an average of 10 minutes per working day - is unreliable.

I also never said my entire commute takes 25 minutes. The DART portion does (or should), but I also have to get to/from the DART station at each end. Taking it all into account, in my circumstances, I'd definitely be better off driving.

And I have used other public transport. I used to have the misfortune of dealing with Dublin Bus on a regular basis. It just happens that the DART's the "service" I use most these days, and which I have current knowledge of.

And I presume that referring to the DART as "such a frequent service" is a joke - good one.

antoinolachtnai

The way train operations work, especially in Dublin trains should really hardly ever be late. The reason is partly for passengers convenience, and to give the value that a train network (which is a pretty expensive system) needs to give.

The other reason is to do with the way that commuter, national and local trains going south, north and west intermingle at the junctions in the centre of Dublin. If anything misses its slot, everything is going to get screwed up. To work to its maximum, everything has to be highly tuned.

Anyway, back to congestion charges ...

I understand the issue with allowing multi-occupancy vehicles to use the extra lane is that to get real speed, the bus has to get priority on the junction. If there are MOV's in the way, the lane will fill up, and the bus won't get to the city centre much faster than if it used the regular lanes.

Thus the benefit of using the bus lane is reduced, people go back to their cars (albeit in MOV mode) and the bus is no longer a rapid means of transit.

Bus lanes do take up road space, but they don't actually take up all that much capacity. The reason is that capacity is constrained by junctions, not by the total amount of road space.

(Lanes that run right up to the traffic light do take up a good bit of junction capacity, but not all junctions are like this.)

Del2005

Kipperhell wrote: »

I think you will be kidding yourself that you will save any money or time. I lived near a guy who claimed his trip was quicker than mine. Every morning I would pass him in traffic, I cycled. He claimed his trip was 30 minutes each way. I said mine was 45 minutes and somehow I arrived before him every day.

I spend about €350 on public transport no car/motorbike would be as cheap and it would take longer. If you could do rough prices and time saving comparisons I guess you will know for sure.

While it may be cheaper on public transport, to buy the ticket, do you honestly believe that a bus will beat a motorbike, or even a bicycle, on most journeys into a city? With a bus you have to wait for it to arrive, load all the passengers and then stop every ~1km for more passengers. On a motorbike, you get on and rarely get stuck in traffic.

There is also the cost to you of your personal time. If you have to spend ~30 min a day waiting on public transport thats 2.5 hours a week, how much would you earn if you where in work during this time or even better at home with your family doing what ever you want.

Congestion charges are needed as far as I can see due to the high number of single occupancy in cars. A congestion charge doesn't need to be brutal it can be gentle. It is possible to bring in a simple system with human operatives at a very affordable price.

Can anyone show me a form of public transport in this country that isn't packed solid at rush hour? I've never seen one.

As people have said when public transport is good people will use it ie Luas and QBC's. I'd also hazard a guess that a large amount of the people who have to spend over 2 hours commuting to and from work would much rather sit/sleep for the 2 hours letting someone else drive it they could.

From what I can remember from an article I read earlier this week, they are planning on bringing in the charge before they make any more improvements in public transport. If they do this and don't ring fence the money for Dublin transport pojects then it will show that it's not a green/congestion buster but a pure revenue earner off the already high tax paying motorists.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/congestion-fee-for-city-drivers-in-three-years-1615912.html

A DUBLIN city centre congestion charge could be imposed within three years, it has emerged.

And the new "demand management" levy on drivers going about their daily business may be introduced before planned public transport improvements are completed.

antoinolachtnai

It's a good point about the 'packing factor'. Getting out of your car to sit in a seat on a bus for the ride to work is one thing, but standing or having someone else squashed into you - can see why people wouldn't fancy that.

AlekSmart

Getting out of your car to sit in a seat on a bus for the ride to work is one thing, but standing or having someone else squashed into you - can see why people wouldn't fancy that.

They would`nt but that "crush-loading" principle remains as one of the central tenets of present Public Transport planning.....

It`should`nt be....but not a single minutes consideration has been put into devising strategies to spread those peaks by even the slightest in order to achieve a broader benefit....I`m afraid it`s just not how we do things round here sherriff....

crocro

To go back to the original question:

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Is it time to think again about a congestion charge in Dublin, both as a way of opening up a new revenue stream and as a way to reduce the traffic volume at peak times?

It takes a capital expenditure to set the system up (or else use a PPP). This is a bad time for any capital project. The london congestion charge uses around 50% of revenue for operating costs and it has only just paid back its capital investment. At least if we did it we could copy a system already in operation, whereas london had a lot of risk with such a new tech project.

A benefit of the tax is that it would be 'avoidable'. Most commuters could avoid the charge by moving to public transport (where capacity is becoming available).

This argument works better in London or Paris where the entire core is in easy walking distance of underground rail.Many routes into Dublin are served by single carriageway road and nothing else. Before the london congestion charge only 13% of commuters used car. Dublin is at about 36%. So there would be more opposition in Dublin.

People who had to move around in the city for their jobs would benefit from the reduced congestion.

True, but a lot of the congestion seems to come from empty buses and taxis.

If the decision were made to go ahead and do this, what area would it make sense to impose the charge on to get the best effect?

The canals are the simplest way to see the core but the area might be too big for Dublin's size. A smaller zone might be Dublin City council's inner orbital. http://www.dublincity.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/inner_orbital_route.pdf

What other conditions would have to be in place?

You would need a bus service where the buses and drivers were allocated according to passenger demand and not stroke politics. You would need RTPI on bus shelters. You would probably have to rebrand the bus network and do a lot of PR to try to persuade all the people who bought cars after their 'never again' incidents of being repeatedly let down by dublin bus. You would need more buses and drivers for the increased demand. We are several years away from these things.

The london congestion charge is now £8/day so you'd probably need a high charge for it to work here.

So long as civil servants, public servants TDs and Dublin city council staff enjoy city parking worth €1800 a year for a €200 levy, it will be very difficult to introduce congestion charging. The first step would have to be to get a high number of state sector workers using public transport as they currently make up two thirds of Dublin's car commuters.

antoinolachtnai

It's not a bad time for a capital project, if there were a return within 3 or 4 years in terms of money.

There have been other benefits to London which are not so easily quantified. The buses move a lot faster and lighter traffic just makes it easier to do business.

One problem they talk about in London is an effect around the edge of the congestion charge - it can actually increase congestion.

Would that happen here, say if the congestion charge were inside the inner orbital (although when you look at it, there is relatively little traffic inside the inner orbital, other than taxis and buses. Maybe it would need to be a bit wider to take in the main office areas?)

MOH

Just to try to contribute something towards the original topic, since I dragged it off a bit:
Wouldn't you also need a decent alternative means of getting around the city centre, without going through it? So the East link and access to it is going to have to fall outside your congestion area, you're going to have a lot more traffic heading that way - is it up to it?

crocro

Yes, the Samuel Beckett bridge will add more capacity next year for crossing the liffey in that area. It's mad to think that the Eastlink is still operating its concession. I think it opened in 1984. I think they have 30 years.

KevR

Not in my opinion.

Surely it couldn't happen with the M50 tolled, Port Tunnel tolled and the parking levy?!

It's one thing asking people not to drive in to Central London when people can opt to use the FREE M25 orbital or the free North + South Circular roads. Also, people in London don't have to pay tax for complimentary parking spaces which are provided by their employers (the parking levy is the same thing as a CC so I don't see how we could possibly need a CC also). Not to mention that public transport is so much better in London (where instead of having cutbacks, they are improving it all the time).

Dublin is too small for a congestion charge. I know it's the capital of Ireland and is by far and away the biggest town in the country but that still doesn't mean it should have a congestion charge. Just because the capital of England (one of the biggest cities in the world) has traffic problems and has a congestion charge, doesn't mean Dublin should have one because it too has traffic problems.
Maybe after putting a congestion charge on Dublin we should look at putting one in place in the biggest town on the Aran Islands?!

If the public transport operators in Dublin are able to justify/get away with outrageous price hikes at the same time they are cutting services and during a recession then what will they do if a congestion charge is implemented and people are forced to use their god aweful 'services'?

It will be bad for the Dublin economy. Maybe it will be good for other towns around the country because businesses will relocate to other towns or overlook Dublin when considering setting up in Ireland. Or it might just be bad for the country in general - companies might overlook Ireland altogether. It's hard to say.

Maybe many years down the line when the toll is gone from the M50, Port Tunnel, the park levy has been abolished and public transport has been greatly improved then we should consider a CC for Dublin City - not until then in my opinion.