High Increase in Library Fines

delta_bravo

http://www.ucd.ie/library/news/index.html#charges

Library Users Group recently approved a review of library charges and fines which will be effective from Feb 2nd 2009. A copy of the schedule is below. At that same meeting, it was also agreed to introduce fines for staff. This proposal was fully endorsed by all members of Library User Group. We would encourage you to avoid fines by returning or renewing your library loans on time.


Late Return of Books
General loan 50c a day (Up 20c)

SLC (48 hour) 30c (Up 10c) for the first 2 hours, 50c (Up 20c) an hour from then on

SLC (1 week) €5 a day

Week loan €2 a day (Up €1)

ILL 50c a day

Max. Fine €50 per item (Up €20 I think)

Reserve Collection Books

Reserve collection late fee

If more than 15 minutes late €10 and more than 30 minutes late €25, more than 1 hour €60 and suspended from reserve collection service for 1 month

Laptop Loans

Laptop loans Rental €1 for 2 hours

Laptop loans late fees
If more than 15 minutes late €10 and more than 30 minutes late €25, more than 1 hour €60 and suspended from laptop service for 1 month

Individual Study Rooms
JJL Individual Study rooms late fee
€10 and suspension for one month

Accessing the Library
External Borrowers


Graduate €120 Non-Graduate €300
External Readers (nine months to 28th February)


Graduate €35 Non-Graduate €120
External Readers (Weekly)


Graduate €20 Non-Graduate €30
External Readers (Daily)


Graduate €10 Non-Graduate €15
External Borrowers


Graduate €120 Non-Graduate €300

Charges For Students Who Forget Cards

2 free (Down from 3) then €1 for each after that. No limit to cards issued

Some of those fines seem very excessive, i suppose its another source of revenue

noodler

Stop bringing books back late.

Wow that was easy.

BG2

It is excessive and as someone who often walks all the way in having forgotten her returns it won't be nice. Will def need some kind of library return alarm system on me at all times.

I dont mind the increase in fines as long as the library actually buy books and more subscriptions with the money they make. The library was in minus figures at the start of last term and couldn't afford new books - i think it worked out at just €10 per student.

wolfpawnat

Do what the rest of us do, Bring them back on time. that way you dont need to worry. In all fairness, leave the books in a place you will see them and you wont forget them!

seraphimvc

delta_bravo wrote: »

Reserve Collection Books

Reserve collection late fee

If more than 15 minutes late €10 and more than 30 minutes late €25, more than 1 hour €60 and suspended from reserve collection service for 1 month

Laptop Loans

Laptop loans Rental €1 for 2 hours

Laptop loans late fees
If more than 15 minutes late €10 and more than 30 minutes late €25, more than 1 hour €60 and suspended from laptop service for 1 month

oh wow.wow.wow wow wow.WOW

noodler

BG2 wrote: »

It is excessive and as someone who often walks all the way in having forgotten her returns it won't be nice. Will def need some kind of library return alarm system on me at all times.

I dont mind the increase in fines as long as the library actually buy books and more subscriptions with the money they make. The library was in minus figures at the start of last term and couldn't afford new books - i think it worked out at just €10 per student.

Well, whilst we all feel for your forgetfulness, do bear in mind that every time you forget to return something on time another student suffers.

I think it is a great idea, the library has a limited quantity of books and this is a good way of ensuring people bring them back on time.

Mr.Nice Guy

In all honesty I think the library fines are an absolute outrage. I mentioned the fines to a friend of mine in another college and he thought I was joking. All this 'bring back the books on time' stuff from people really irritates me because it effectively gives these greedy chancers carte blanche to rip us off. And these fines are a rip off. Fines are justifiable but they should be proportionate to the offence. I think people who litter should be fined but I wouldn't support fines of €1,000 on the spot as it would be disproportionate to the offence.

They are rip-off merchants and I don't care what any of the bleeding hearts say. I'm sure many of you will give me the 'but it will make you bring them back' argument. I know some of you will be dying to. Don't bother.

All I'll say is you can beat a dog and tell it to sit but it's not respect it's fear. Their attitude towards students stinks and it's a disgrace.

noodler

Well you know what I am going to tell you.

Proportionate to the offence?

What punishment would you say is appropriate to denying another student access to a book he/she cannot afford because you know you can easily afford the late fee?

Face facts, theres too many UCD students for this issue to be dealt with in a softly-softly approach, as is the case with "crimes" (loosely attributing the word I admit) that are not punished the mob rule will dictate that everyone will keep talking about how much of a pain it is getting hold of such and such a book but won't be overly pushed themselves to bring something back.

Bar having a book for every student in the course (an obvious and blatant waste of money) I don't see an other efficient deterrant for students not to keep books out beyond their return date.

The only people who will be seriously affected are those that don't return books on time on a regular basis, these are the people who need to be targeted.

I had 5 years in UCD without living anywhere close to campus and late fines were never an issue for me. There is no real excuse.

Mr.Nice Guy

noodler wrote:

What punishment would you say is appropriate to denying another student access to a book he/she cannot afford because you know you can easily afford the late fee?

The punishment itself is not the issue for me, it's the extent of the fines which are far greater than those imposed by other colleges. Don't give me a load of nonsense about it being necessary to impose harsher fines for us due to us attending a big college. Please.

I am not interested in defending people who bring in books late. What I am against rather is the library using this offence as a means to get rich and make a buck. All this Superfines stuff at exam time too. They're not doing it to help out students who need books, they're doing it because they know it's a great way to make money. We all know it.

Again, I know the arguments people like yourself will come out with on this thread and that you'll try to make out that the ends justify the means but I absolutely disagree. I would rather a library built on the principle of respect rather than one built on financial intimidation.

I await the wave of sarcastic smilies but that's my view and I can't be charged for it.

seraphimvc

i think beside all the ridiculous fines ,the more laughable thing is UCD ,a national university,not allow public to borrow book 'easily' from its library .

Non-Graduate €300 for 9 months - more expensive than standard gym:pac:

noodler

And why would they?

You can gather from this thread that there are clearly not enough books to go around for students, as a student I would have been furious if a member of the public was using a book for recreational purposes if I needed it for an exam.

Mr.NiceGuy.

You think the aim of increased late fines is to make the library money?

Are late fees in a video shop designed to make sure videos come back on time or to make money?

Honestly, give me a better way to make sure books come back on time. Your 1960s open forum notions of respect etc wouldn't work in UCD I am afraid. Hell why speeding fines? Can't we just have a system of road law based on respect rather than financial intimidation?

Seriously here. If you are the head of the library and have students moaning/distressing about books that are due back not being back in time. What do you tell them? What would your plan be to make sure people don't abuse the system? Hitting people in the pocket is a tried and trusted measure.

seraphimvc

noodler wrote: »

And why would they?

You can gather from this thread that there are clearly not enough books to go around for students, as a student I would have been furious if a member of the public was using a book for recreational purposes if I needed it for an exam.

Mr.NiceGuy.

You think the aim of increased late fines is to make the library money?

Are late fees in a video shop designed to make sure videos come back on time or to make money?

Honestly, give me a better way to make sure books come back on time. Your 1960s open forum notions of respect etc wouldn't work in UCD I am afraid. Hell why speeding fines? Can't we just have a system of road law based on respect rather than financial intimidation?

Seriously here. If you are the head of the library and have students moaning/distressing about books that are due back not being back in time. What do you tell them? What would your plan be to make sure people don't abuse the system? Hitting people in the pocket is a tried and trusted measure.

well noodler i guess your point doesnt 100% fits on what mr.niceguy said.i guess:pac:

in my point of view is,heavy fine = they make money or not is based on the principle of,where are they gonna use these money on?

do they use that to improve their services?
1buy more books(to reduce book shortage),
2buy new books,
3improve the study environment during exams(kick those a**holes a**es),
4improve the fcking entrance card reader,
5provide a better quality libray environment(less selffish a**hole using computer for 3 hrs on bebo on pc etc),
6more efficiency energy saving system(wasted light/heater when no one in library),
etc etc.

until then,heavy fine = mainly purpose on making money imo

noodler

Honestly, and as usual, I wasn't aware you had actually made a point yet.

You are going off point a little, the real question is will an increased fine ensure return deadlines are adhered too? The answer is yes.

You have no idea what they fine money is spent on, so your entire post is pretty much speculation. However you do note a shortage of books yet want more non-university people having access. Thats a bit of a catch 22.

Tayto2000

seraphimvc wrote: »

well noodler i guess your point doesnt 100% fits on what mr.niceguy said.i guess:pac:

in my point of view is,heavy fine = they make money or not is based on the principle of,where are they gonna use these money on?

1do they improve their services:
2buy more books(to reduce book shortage),
3buy new books,
4improve the study environment during exams(kick those a**holes a**es),
5improve the fcking entrance card reader,
6provide a better quality libray environment(less selffish a**hole using computer for 3 hrs on bebo on pc etc),
7more efficiency energy saving system(wasted light/heater when no one in library),

etc etc.until then,heavy fine = mainly purpose on making money

Well judging from all the complaints this year about what a total fascist Librocop is I guess it's yes to 4 and 6... At the moment most places are looking to avoid cutting back on their services or streamlining them which the Library has done in fairness by not reducing hours in the face of cutbacks so it could be argued that it's Yes to 1 as well....

2 and 3 are pretty common calls and there is targeted buying of books but it's never going to be possible to meet demand (ie one per person per course of a text).

I haven't used the card reader lately in JJ so can't comment. I do know that the heating and lighting is timed to go on and off according to use.

Personally I think the deterrent effect of large fines is a good thing, just have some consideration for others and bring books back on time.

El Siglo

Shower of bastards! I wouldn't mind but if you're doing some ****ed up module where there's 200 people doing the same assignment, and only 3 books in the JJ, you're pretty ****ed! Maybe if you don't plan on staying in Belfield Polytechnic next year (i.e. greener MA and MSc fields far, far away) then on the last week, take out as many books from the shelves, stick em in a big bag, pull the fire alarm and that's two fingers to them and their rules!:D

Mr.Nice Guy

noodler wrote: »

Mr.NiceGuy.

You think the aim of increased late fines is to make the library money?

Are late fees in a video shop designed to make sure videos come back on time or to make money?

Honestly, give me a better way to make sure books come back on time. Your 1960s open forum notions of respect etc wouldn't work in UCD I am afraid. Hell why speeding fines? Can't we just have a system of road law based on respect rather than financial intimidation?

Seriously here. If you are the head of the library and have students moaning/distressing about books that are due back not being back in time. What do you tell them? What would your plan be to make sure people don't abuse the system? Hitting people in the pocket is a tried and trusted measure.

Sigh. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you've tried to portray my view as one that doesn't think fines are necessary when I was at pains to point out in previous posts that this was not what I was saying. Let me repeat myself - Fines are justifiable but they should be proportionate to the offence. Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp? Why do you find it so objectionable that students wish to be treated like students in other colleges?

To use your speeding analogy, speeding fines are acceptable but not fines that would be €10,000 for an offence. Why? Because it would be disproportionate to the offence. It's not rocket science.

Oh but why don't you come back with, 'But it will stop you speeding'. Because at the end of the day you can justify hitting people in their pockets as much as you want if you choose to justify it on lofty, spurious grounds of morality. 'Oh but think of the children who need books on time etc, 'We're doing a good thing' and so on. Yeah OK but think also of the students who wish to be treated like others in the country and not as the UCD library's meal ticket.

That's my view on it. I doubt we'll reach any common ground on this matter. That's fair enough. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to CIE offices. I forgot my travel card today and so the conductor fined me €800. It seemed harsh at the time but hey, I'll remember to bring it with me next time right? I love being ruled by fear! This is progress!

seraphimvc

noodler wrote: »

Honestly, and as usual, I wasn't aware you had actually made a point yet.

You are going off point a little, the real question is will an increased fine ensure return deadlines are adhered too? The answer is yes.

You have no idea what they fine money is spent on, so your entire post is pretty much speculation. However you do note a shortage of books yet want more non-university people having access. Thats a bit of a catch 22.

fixed abit and sorry for my poor english ,as usual:p

what i said is simply meaning that
1)of course fine is necessary - but do they really need to be that ridiculously high?60euro if i am 1 hour late to a borrowed laptop?!
2)unless they find a real solution or else their purpose to raise the fine is highly doubtful,imo of course.short loan book (48hrs) late return one day will cost you 10+euro,wtf??!

why raise the fine if you can spend some money buy more books ,solving the basic cause of the huge people's demand/late return? More books for such a huge college is essential.

and yes,basically what i said in my post above is 100% BS:D
BUT,that is the voice from a fcking poor student who have been using the library for some time.Just a little hope for some changes.you are welcomed to tell me how do the library spent the HUGE fine they get every year too:)

noodler wrote: »

Face facts, theres too many UCD students for this issue to be dealt with in a softly-softly approach, as is the case with "crimes" (loosely attributing the word I admit) that are not punished the mob rule will dictate that everyone will keep talking about how much of a pain it is getting hold of such and such a book but won't be overly pushed themselves to bring something back..

your point of view 'it is good to raise the fine' need more info to back it up,no way your 'UCD students for this issue to be dealt with in a softly-softly approach' is gonna be accepted to raise the fine.death sentense for the rape/killer?

and for the external borrower part,if you are not preparing to accomodate public then why charge 300euro?buy more books ffs.

do you ever imagine if ya are not a UCD student but ya hope to borrow some books/use library sometimes since UCD libraries are huge ,lovely and comfortable hanging around?

or do ya ever try to travel 2 hours to get to the libray just to return a book that will cost you more than your travel ticket if you are late return?

and yes,again,totally off topic,we can all just blame the recession:rolleyes:or the increasing evil students who keep making our life harder.

Bubs101

To argue that the fines are not excessive is just stupid. The laptop ones alone are absolutely outrageous.

noodler

seraphimvc wrote: »

fixed abit and sorry for my poor english ,as usual:p

what i said is simply meaning that
1)of course fine is necessary - but do they really need to be that ridiculously high?60euro if i am 1 hour late to a borrowed laptop?!
2)unless they find a real solution or else their purpose to raise the fine is highly doubtful,imo of course.short loan book (48hrs) late return one day will cost you 10+euro,wtf??!

why raise the fine if you can spend some money buy more books ,solving the basic cause of the huge people's demand/late return? More books for such a huge college is essential.

and yes,basically what i said in my post above is 100% BS:D
BUT,that is the voice from a fcking poor student who have been using the library for some time.Just a little hope for some changes.you are welcomed to tell me how do the library spent the HUGE fine they get every year too:)



your point of view 'it is good to raise the fine' need more info to back it up,no way your 'UCD students for this issue to be dealt with in a softly-softly approach' is gonna be accepted to raise the fine.death sentense for the rape/killer?

and for the external borrower part,if you are not preparing to accomodate public then why charge 300euro?buy more books ffs.

do you ever imagine if ya are not a UCD student but ya hope to borrow some books/use library sometimes since UCD libraries are huge ,lovely and comfortable hanging around?

or do ya ever try to travel 2 hours to get to the libray just to return a book that will cost you more than your travel ticket if you are late return?

and yes,again,totally off topic,we can all just blame the recession:rolleyes:or the increasing evil students who keep making our life harder.

Honestly, what?

If they serves their purpose of getting books back on time then they will have been a success. Jesus, you will only be charged if you are late? Therefore if you are the type of person who is bothered by this the you are probably the same person who brings books back late.

noodler

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Sigh. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you've tried to portray my view as one that doesn't think fines are necessary when I was at pains to point out in previous posts that this was not what I was saying. Let me repeat myself - Fines are justifiable but they should be proportionate to the offence. Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp? Why do you find it so objectionable that students wish to be treated like students in other colleges?

To use your speeding analogy, speeding fines are acceptable but not fines that would be €10,000 for an offence. Why? Because it would be disproportionate to the offence. It's not rocket science.

Oh but why don't you come back with, 'But it will stop you speeding'. Because at the end of the day you can justify hitting people in their pockets as much as you want if you choose to justify it on lofty, spurious grounds of morality. 'Oh but think of the children who need books on time etc, 'We're doing a good thing' and so on. Yeah OK but think also of the students who wish to be treated like others in the country and not as the UCD library's meal ticket.

That's my view on it. I doubt we'll reach any common ground on this matter. That's fair enough. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to CIE offices. I forgot my travel card today and so the conductor fined me €800. It seemed harsh at the time but hey, I'll remember to bring it with me next time right? I love being ruled by fear! This is progress!

Ouch.

Nevertheless. Fines work. Simple as.

You will only be giving money to UCD if you bring books back late, if you bring books back late then you are the target of the fines.

The majority of students, including myself, who rarely bring books back late should be looked after. How is it spurious morality? The majority of students who are punctual about bring books back don't get punished, the higher fines provides incentive for the lazier students.

There shouldn't be any proportionate issues here. If you are an hour or two over the limit then you will be fine-not a fine that will really hurt. If you are a day late then you deserve to be fined (barring illness etc).

seraphimvc

noodler wrote: »

Honestly, what?

If they serves their purpose of getting books back on time then they will have been a success. Jesus, you will only be charged if you are late? Therefore if you are the type of person who is bothered by this the you are probably the same person who brings books back late.

feel free to check out my extremely clean library record and my County Meath home address.and thank you for your generalization.

and ya,thank you for giving me a lesson about clever reply!probably the cleverest reply on saying what?i dont get it:D

and ya know what's more funny?your arrow is turning from 'huge fine is ok' to 'if you are a good boy ,the huge/small fine doesnt matter' is extremely entertaining.

Tayto2000

Small bit of Necrothreadomancy here, but it looks like super-fines are working (according to the Observer anyway...) It seems people are bringing the books back on time meaning there's no revenue being generated for the Please Talk campaign, let alone a meal ticket for the Library....

Mushy

Regarding the library, does anyone know why they have those big concrete slanty blocks outside the window? I'm asking cos I had a thought that, if they were to remove these, then more light would get in, and if more light got in, they wouldn't need to have the lights on all day, hence saving money on electricity. Or is there something else to it that I'm missing?

Regarding fines, well how is it so hard to bring them back on time, especially if they are in a persons bag? Although thats probabaly ironic, as that exact thing happened me a few weeks ago(still paid the fine no questions asked).

delta_bravo

Tayto2000 wrote: »

Small bit of Necrothreadomancy here, but it looks like super-fines are working (according to the Observer anyway...) It seems people are bringing the books back on time meaning there's no revenue being generated for the Please Talk campaign, let alone a meal ticket for the Library....

That was in the Observer, superfines were the increased fines that ran last xmas for exam time and are different from the increases for 2009. The library decided to keep the extra revenue rather than donate it to please talk as they did before. Cant say i argue with it since the library seems to be running on very tight margins

Mushy wrote: »

Regarding the library, does anyone know why they have those big concrete slanty blocks outside the window? I'm asking cos I had a thought that, if they were to remove these, then more light would get in, and if more light got in, they wouldn't need to have the lights on all day, hence saving money on electricity. Or is there something else to it that I'm missing?

I presume that it was a cheaper alternative to blinds. Concrete is a bit more durable than blinds and does the same job, although they may be not be exactly asthetically pleasing.

El Siglo

delta_bravo wrote: »

I presume that it was a cheaper alternative to blinds. Concrete is a bit more durable than blinds and does the same job, although they may be not be exactly asthetically pleasing.

It's got it's charm though, maybe it was to remind student 'radicals' back in the 60's who's boss.;)

It was expected though that they would increase fines with the budget cuts going on, at least they didn't cutthe opening hours, not that it matters to half of the fools going into it.:(

Mushy

delta_bravo wrote: »

I presume that it was a cheaper alternative to blinds. Concrete is a bit more durable than blinds and does the same job, although they may be not be exactly asthetically pleasing.

Blinds should be put in, at least for light it can be controlled, and when open more naturla light would get in.

delta_bravo

Mushy wrote: »

Blinds should be put in, at least for light it can be controlled, and when open more naturla light would get in.

Id say that they would cost probably over €100,000 in total so i dont think its a good idea. They dont last too long anyway, most of the blinds in the upstairs rooms of the newman building are broken

Mushy

delta_bravo wrote: »

Id say that they would cost probably over €100,000 in total so i dont think its a good idea. They dont last too long anyway, most of the blinds in the upstairs rooms of the newman building are broken

True. Well, rid of concrete blocks and no to blinds too then:cool: