Licence query

milkerman

Quick question. If changing from a .22 Air Rifle to a .22 lr rifle, can this be done by substitution or is it a completely new application? Or is it one of those grey areas?

foxhunter

milkerman wrote: »

Quick question. If changing from a .22 Air Rifle to a .22 lr rifle, can this be done by substitution or is it a completely new application? Or is it one of those grey areas?

Most of the time a substitution will do but doctors differ and patients die.
Depends on your FO.

endasmail

no grey area ,its a new license <keep everything above board>

IRLConor

The relevant piece of law is Section 11 of the Firearms Act 1964.

That allows you to have a modification made to an existing cert only if both the following conditions are met:

• The Garda making the modification has been authorised by his/her Superintendent to make changes to firearm certificates.
• You aren't changing from a cheaper to a more expensive firearm without paying the difference. (i.e. you can't change a limited shotgun for a rifle because the fee is more expensive)

There doesn't appear to be a method by which the Super would authorise someone, so from what I can see there's nothing stopping him/her saying "you can change certs if they're moving down in calibre, but not if they're moving up".

clivej

IRLConor wrote: »

The relevant piece of law is Section 11 of the Firearms Act 1964.

That allows you to have a modification made to an existing cert only if both the following conditions are met:

• The Garda making the modification has been authorised by his/her Superintendent to make changes to firearm certificates.
• You aren't changing from a cheaper to a more expensive firearm without paying the difference. (i.e. you can't change a limited shotgun for a rifle because the fee is more expensive)

There doesn't appear to be a method by which the Super would authorise someone, so from what I can see there's nothing stopping him/her saying "you can change certs if they're moving down in calibre, but not if they're moving up".

"without paying the difference"

But by what your saying is that if you pay the difference then it's OK?????

IRLConor

clivej wrote: »

"without paying the difference"

But by what your saying is that if you pay the difference then it's OK?????

No, sorry, I worded it badly.

You're only allowed change if the cost of getting the new cert would be the same or lower as the cost of getting the old cert. You can't just pay the difference.

What I meant was that that clause was probably put in to stop people trying to save a few quid by licensing their friends shotgun on a limited cert, then getting it changed over to a rifle.

Mellor

I thought that only applied when it was like for like. Or at least similar.
You couldn't change a .22 to a .220 etc,

milkerman

So,
It should be a substitution rather than a new application as the licence fee is the same. The licence fee being the only criteria mentioned in S.11 of the Act?
Are my local boys in blue re-writing there own legislation then? Naughty!

Sparks

No, Conor's saying that those are the conditions under which a Garda may not do a substitution.
There's no rule saying they must do a substitution.
This is more the Department of Finance saying that the Gardai aren't allowed let us off with paying a lesser amount than it is the law saying what we're permitted, if you follow me.

milkerman

If we stay away from the legalities of the issue, what is the common practice then - new application or substitution?

And as the Gardai are Civil Servants like many others, are they not subject to the "Ultra Vires" doctrine, i.e. You can only do what is provided for under legislation? Or maybe thats just youthful niaivety on my part.

foxhunter

milkerman wrote: »

If we stay away from the legalities of the issue, what is the common practice then - new application or substitution?

From my experience substitution I've had it done several times.

Sparks

milkerman wrote: »

If we stay away from the legalities of the issue, what is the common practice then - new application or substitution?

There really doesn't seem to be any common practise unfortunately - it's literally down to the district you're in.
That's the main reason that one of the FCP's jobs is a set of guidelines for the Supers, to try to introduce some degree of common practice. But it's not done yet.

And as the Gardai are Civil Servants like many others, are they not subject to the "Ultra Vires" doctrine, i.e. You can only do what is provided for under legislation? Or maybe thats just youthful niaivety on my part.

No, that's pretty much spot on; it's just that the firearms legislation provides for them to do an enormous amount. And I do mean enormous - sitting down and reading the legislation (primary and secondary and all the cross-references) takes a while, but sadly you are not rewarded at the end of it with a glowing vision of liberalism - instead you suddenly realise that all the "jaysus, this is awful lads, can't we have something better" noises you hear are in fact woefully unaware of the fact that they are being cut breaks all over the shop by the Gardai in the name of operational efficiency. If the Gardai as a whole were ever to operate firearms licencing on a work-to-rule basis, a very large number of people would get a very nasty shock to their systems.

jwshooter

i got a .22 cz changed to a tikka 243 about two years or more ago with no promlem .
it would depend on how you get on with the local lad ,i play squash with mine .

maigheo

two years ago i traded my shotgun for another one the week before christmas, handed the paper and my licence into the station that evening and told to wait for a call, by the time my license was ammended with biro and stamped i had to wait over a month to until the last weekend of the season to be able to my new gun. i had seen my father and friend getting this done in a few minutes with my friend changing his address as well as gun. i will be doing the same change as milkerman in the future and i will try to go direct to the fo.