SU

Unregistered.

jmccrohan wrote: »

Exactly my point...
Same story last weekend when I was in..

But hey.. noone listened to me...


SU too full of their own self importance to use any sort of logic in their decisions..

Why don't you say something at the SU council rather than moaning about it on the internet. All students "are" the SU. You're a class rep right? Get in there an speak out for your class, wisen the SU's decision to your logic. I'm not bitching here but you really have no right to complain about the SU's posisition on Library opening times if you haven't made a point about the subject at council.
So g'd luck with the debate, if you decide to speak up.

Jonathan

Unregistered. wrote: »

Why don't you say something at the SU council rather than moaning about it on the internet. All students "are" the SU. You're a class rep right? Get in there an speak out for your class, wisen the SU's decision to your logic. I'm not bitching here but you really have no right to complain about the SU's posisition on Library opening times if you haven't made a point about the subject at council.
So g'd luck with the debate, if you decide to speak up.

Hello peslo.

Na I went to two of those council larks and realised that they are a waste of time. Just a circle jerk of political animals inflating each others egos.

ilovemybrick

jmccrohan wrote: »

Hello peslo.

Na I went to two of those council larks and realised that they are a waste of time. Just a circle jerk of political animals inflating each others egos.

Your inability to understand astounds me sometimes.

The entire point is if you are unhappy with that sort of behaviour then do something about it.Get up and speak,disrupt the ego inflating activity. You would be surprised how many people will support and agree with you. If you don't and simply stop turning up you are worse than the very people you are bitching about and are a failure as a representative of your classes interests and your own.

Jonathan

ilovemybrick wrote: »

If you don't and simply stop turning up you are worse than the very people you are bitching about and are a failure as a representative of your classes interests and your own.

Not at all.. There are three reps..
Just because one does not agree with the SU does not mean that the class is not well informed of SU activities.


I'm pretty sure if you bothered to ask the class they would not view me as a failure.

Leon08

jmccrohan wrote: »

Not at all.. There are three reps..
Just because one does not agree with the SU does not mean that the class is not well informed of SU activities.


I'm pretty sure if you bothered to ask the class they would not view me as a failure.

Well said Jon.

@ ilovemybrick

Im in Jon's class and I voted for him. He does a hell of a lot more than you're average Class Rep. He actually tackles issues that matter.

The SU is dominated by your run-of-the-mill arts student, whose inexplicable egocentricity is only matched by an impeccable fake tan and Ugg boots.

ilovemybrick

Leon08 wrote: »

Well said Jon.

@ ilovemybrick

Im in Jon's class and I voted for him. He does a hell of a lot more than you're average Class Rep. He actually tackles issues that matter.

The SU is dominated by your run-of-the-mill arts student, whose inexplicable egocentricity is only matched by an impeccable fake tan and Ugg boots.

SU Sabbats-
Geology
MSISS
History
BESS
Science of some sort (i cant remember)

It really isn't dominated by arts students.

I'm not decrying jon's ability as a rep I am disappointed by his inability to see that he is a part of the system that allows the things he dislikes about the SU to be perpetuated. Head in the sand and running away from council instead of standing up and challenging something is childish, self-defeating and pointless. Arguing about it on the internet is even more so. If he feels so strongly about it he can do something about it rather than ignoring the issue.
I am sick of people bitching and doing nothing about it.

ilovemybrick

jmccrohan wrote: »

Not at all.. There are three reps..
Just because one does not agree with the SU does not mean that the class is not well informed of SU activities.


I'm pretty sure if you bothered to ask the class they would not view me as a failure.

I never said the class was uninformed and why would I ask your class?
You are not performing the functions of a representative of the students if you do not engage with council.

I understand you are apparently doing things for your class, but part of the job of the student reps is to attend council and frankly the amount of sheep who turn up and just nod along is ridiculous.

If you are angry about something or have an issue then please do something about it. If you are angry at the supposed ego masturbation that goes on why not get up and say that. It would be a positive thing for you and for the union.

Boston

jmccrohan is treating the SU the way it should be, as irrelevant. How much he cares about the SU should be directly proportional to how much his class cares. You moan about sheep in council and then criticse jmccrohan for not being one of them as if the most important thing a class rep could do is attend council. There is a huge gulf between what SU hacks like yourself see as the roll of representatives and what they themselves see as their role.

ilovemybrick

Boston wrote: »

jmccrohan is treating the SU the way it should be, as irrelevant. How much he cares about the SU should be directly proportional to how much his class cares. You moan about sheep in council and then criticse jmccrohan for not being one of them as if the most important thing a class rep could do is attend council. There is a huge gulf between what SU hacks like yourself see as the roll of representatives and what they themselves see as their role.

You are missing my point. Jmccrohan is obviously someone with strong opinions about the SU. What makes it irrelevant (if it is at times irrelevant) is that these people get tired of the time wasting and drift away. If one or a few of them actually made an attempt the SU wouldn't have to be irrelevant.

Im not saying attending council is the most important thing a class rep can do, it is simply part of the job.

I just wish the SU didn't lose people like him to apathy. It is people who will dissent, who will play devil's advocate and who have the capability to provide proper representation to the student body who are needed.

Im finished with this place in 5 months. I don't need the hassle and stress that, at times this place has caused but I care about it and so I want the best for it.

So once again Boston you are Union bashing and calling people hacks simply because of your own experiences and your own set of values. I just want to actually see people like Jon do the job they said they would do, do it properly and succeed at it.

Boston

There is often an implication that if you don't attend council you're not doing the Job. When Rob Kearns was edu officer he threatened to remove reps who wouldn't attend council. The idea that a rep can't do his or her job with out sitting through some lame duck council sessions is ridicules. The vast majority of the issues a rep will face will not involve the SU in any way. Why then should someone devote what little time they have in trying to find a use for the SU? Its really twisted and circular logic to blame the lack of participation in the SU for it being irrelevant, people need a solid reason to get involved and stay involved. It's the best thing for trinity is a rather subjective reason.

Of course you're a hack btw. By any definition of the word hack you are one. Lets not be coy here. Also I'm hardly going to bash the SU based on someone elses experience of it.

ilovemybrick

Boston wrote: »

There is often an implication that if you don't attend council you're not doing the Job. When Rob Kearns was edu officer he threatened to remove reps who wouldn't attend council. The idea that a rep can't do his or her job with out sitting through some lame duck council sessions is ridicules. The vast majority of the issues a rep will face will not involve the SU in any way. Why then should someone devote what little time they have in trying to find a use for the SU? Its really twisted and circular logic to blame the lack of participation in the SU for it being irrelevant, people need a solid reason to get involved and stay involved. It's the best thing for trinity is a rather subjective reason.

Of course you're a hack btw. By any definition of the word hack you are one. Lets not be coy here. Also I'm hardly going to bash the SU based on someone elses experience of it.

Despite the fact I harbour no desire to be a sabbat officer and havent in fact held an elected Union position for well over a year I know I am a hack, but I also know I have done a lot more good than harm here so frankly don't care if you want to call me that, its just the negative connotation with which you seem to bandy the term around that is needless.

Also Rob was totally correct in doing what he did, it is in the constitution and the Union is ruled by the constitution.

I'm not getting into an argument as to the relevance of the Union because people have very varying experiences of it and I can appreciate that some of those experiences are negative. Also it will spiral and suddenly we are arguing on the internet.

I apologise for not making myself clear but this is basically what I am trying to say

-The Union is only a framework and thus only as strong as people who get involved.
- If strong reps like Jon drop out of the governmental and representative process the Union loses a valued opinion and a potentially effective member of council.
_This happens every year.
-So if for one year, all those people actually came and argued out their points and their problems and turned the Union into an effective and truly representative structure then the following year it would grow stronger and stronger with more vocal, intelligent and dedicated people doing a job who's relevance could only increase.


It has to start somewhere.

Awayindahils

Leon08 wrote: »

The SU is dominated by your run-of-the-mill arts student, whose inexplicable egocentricity is only matched by an impeccable fake tan and Ugg boots.

I take huge offensce to that.

Boston wrote: »

There is often an implication that if you don't attend council you're not doing the Job. When Rob Kearns was edu officer he threatened to remove reps who wouldn't attend council. The idea that a rep can't do his or her job with out sitting through some lame duck council sessions is ridicules. The vast majority of the issues a rep will face will not involve the SU in any way.

Bartley did remove reps last year.


COUNCIL

There were way to many things to try and quote.

So whats right and wrong with council as I see it.

When I was a first year it was council that made me want to stay involved. It felt like we were really debating issues and there did seem to be discussion before decisions were made. People held their opinions whether or not they were popular. And fought for those opinions. In the last 4 years of college I have see the guts and determination of council as a legislative body, (cos in effect thats what council is) seriously reduced to simply a tool of the sabbadical officers. Who use it to pass their own agendas, and to try and keep things going. Whos job is of course made a lot easier if they are facing no opposition.

However it is this opposition and this challenging of ideas that keeps the union and any organisation moving forwad. The disucssion paper brought to council in MT was the first time that the Union has been strongly challenged from within the Union since I was in first year. It was good to see debate. It was embarassing to see the Education Officer swearing at the school convenor who brought the paper. Council having opinions and ideas isn't a bad thing and I think that has been forgotten in the last number of years, and it is a very sad fact. There seems to be a bias towards having lots of very passive reps rather than having really engaged, really interested students or even in encourgaging news reps to challenge what is brought in front of them.

Last year the education officer had plans to limit the size of exec, apperently there are similar plans underway now. Making the size of the input from students increasinly smaller is not going to help the union evolve as a group, as an organisation. It simply isn't.

I can totally see jmc's point of view that going to council is a pointless excercise in pandering to peoples egos. And it is a really sad fact. The heart of council should be debate and ideas and changing things, not officer reports. Nights out are a good thing of course once people have been working on the issues.

I do think the Union does also suffer from the majority of students not engaging in the way that they might. By lots not really caring. And the visibility of the campaigns this year has been a great improvement, so maybe that might change.

The union has a really important and vital role. The keyboard I'm using is very sticky so typing is a bit tricky, but I have loads and loads of posts on this forum defending the SU. It has gotten the library open, which if your 3/4 year arts student makes a massive difference, speaking from the experience of my class. They got left hand desks, water fountains and couches. Things that change your day to day lives, in the way that TDs work in local constitencies to improve the small things. But the SU also got to have a say in semesterisation and modularisation. They got to have a say in the term changes, in the course changes in the really big issues. And it is the only formal institution with which college is willing to engage with students through.

I hate the SUs flaws, praticularily those in council and more so in the proposed chnages. I admire the SU for what it has the potential to do and indeed for many of the things that it does.

Brian

ilovemybrick wrote: »

It has to start somewhere.

.. it has to start some time..

WHAT BETTER PLACE THAN HERE
WHAT BETTER TIME THAN NOW


ALL. HELL. CAN'T STOP US NOW

Yeah, look what you've done Jon.

Leon08

Boston wrote: »

jmccrohan is treating the SU the way it should be, as irrelevant. How much he cares about the SU should be directly proportional to how much his class cares. You moan about sheep in council and then criticse jmccrohan for not being one of them as if the most important thing a class rep could do is attend council. There is a huge gulf between what SU hacks like yourself see as the roll of representatives and what they themselves see as their role.

Remember me Boston? Ask Jon about the latest email i sent. I took your advice this time.

Boston

I remember you Leon.

Unregistered.

So is anyone gonna march? . . .
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oYtn04PhE&feature=related

I guess another poll could be in order..