Is he worth it anymore?

liz72 · 25-01-2009 2:24pm #1

Hi all,
I need to get this off my chest and some friendly advice?I have been with someone for 14 years on and off for the past four due to us living apart.I finally plucked up the courage to end it,a week before christmas the hardest thing i ever had to do:eek:.We have one child together.The problem with him is he has a bad temper,has hit me in the past and i forgave him,he always said i brought out the temper in him.Any how the problem now is my child doesnt want to go with him,she is 6 but has seen him loose his temper with me and tells me she is scared!As usual he blames me and thinks i am keeping her away,but i hav told him i am only concerned about my daughters welfare.He has also been textin me nasty messages and telling me he is on dating sites?Surely his daughter should be his main concern?Also he hasnt given me any maintenance,his view is if he doesnt see his daughter he doesnt have to pay maintenance?My head is wrecked,i dont know what to do for the best.We are both 37 by the way.Can anyone advice me what is the best solution.Thanks.

MagicMarker · 25-01-2009 2:29pm

I didn't like to eat my greens as a kid but I had to.

Unless he's violent towards your child then you can't just stop him from seeing her. She will always be scared if the only memories she has are of him losing his temper. She needs a chance to become comfortable with him again. And him being on dating sites doesn't mean his daughter isn't is main concern, although it sounds like he's trying to make you jealous, and it also sounds like it's working.

Go to a solicitor to seek out maintenance and arrange visitation rights.

normalzone · 25-01-2009 2:32pm

This sounds like a cross between the way i was brought up and what i am going thru now with my GF .
If deep down he is really not a bad guy tell this to your daughter and try and get them to see each other. my mum used to always say "as horrible as your dad was to me he is and always will be a loving father".
As for amintenance , he should be paying so take him to court.
After he gets time with his daughter (if he is stable enough)he might start giving you money to help out anyway . So dont make him angrier by taking him to court yet . Try and have it out with him in a civil fashion before you do.Good luck.

ladyella · 25-01-2009 2:33pm

Firstly well done on making the decision and having the guts to take yourself and your daughter out of that situation.. You shouldnt have to be in an abusive relationship and she certainly shouldnt have to be witness to it.

I cant really offer any knowledgable advise as I've never been in the sitation but maybe you should go and speak to a solicitor about the non paying of maintenance. Its very clear that your little girl does not want to be around this man and he can not use this as an excuse to not pay for his child.

Best of luck - I hope it works out for you

LegacyUser · 25-01-2009 2:39pm

No, he doesn't sound worth it as a partner for you. However he is still your child's father...Children need two parents in their lives. He should see his daughter as long as he is a fit and non-abusive parent. Whether he is on dating sites has no bearing on that. I think you should give up on him as an OH but not as a father. He needs to pay maintainance too and you should pursue your legal options on this.

I am a mother of a 6 year old as well. They can be a bit....dramatic. As long as he treats her well she should not be deciding when and if she see her father.That's for the ADULTS to decide....Both you and your ex need to act as ADULTS.

liz72 · 25-01-2009 2:40pm

Thanks all,good advice!

estar · 25-01-2009 2:41pm

congrats, on making that move. i imagine it took a lot of courage.

there are some situations in life that you have to accept are never going to change and are lose / lose.

I am a believer in the eternal possibilities of the human beings capacity to grow and change, I have to believe this to have hope.

However. Some people have a large distance to cover before they are even at the start line of the right race. Your partner, is on the wrong track, and is still racing down that wrong track. He hasn't even started to see he is on the wrong track. He doesnt appear to question how maybe he is on the wrong track because of something he can control. And it is going to be some time before he is in a place (if he ever gets to the place) where he is going to be a healthy influence on your child. the you bring out the temper in me comment is all I need to hear to know that. still blaming everything around him, for how he is, rather than seeing that that is pointless, and instead of finding excuses he needs to find a way to change. all the bile, the need to hurt and control you, the nasty texts, now that you have moved away are really to be pitied. and most definitely, ignored. the only thing you need to communicate about is the welfare of your child.

children are very perceptive. they are usually less concerned with what they should do, and more with what they need to do for themselves to survive when faced with danger.

i suggest that you seek out other women/men who have faced this situation for some solidarity and good advice. i know www.cosc.ie can help.

there are many women and men out there who have faced the nightmare of ongoing contact with an abusive partner for the sake of their child.

i would say personally i would rather have no money from this guy. he should be paying support. but you will have more control of the situation if he doesnt. and if your daughter doesnt enjoy his company and doenst want to spend time with him, then that says a lot to me, as children are very very forgiving of their parents transgressions, usually.

for the mean time, until that image fades for her, some time apart from him is probably the best thing.

i hope he gets the help he needs too. he has a long journey ahead of him before he reaches a healhty place.

liz72 · 25-01-2009 2:49pm

I know not letting her see him is wrong but she screams when i ask her does she want to see daddy,lately she is throwing tantrums and has tol me she told her friends in school that daddy gets really angry at mammy.I feel so sad for her like i have let her down some way,after all she is only 6.:(

normalzone · 25-01-2009 2:56pm

liz72 wrote: »

I know not letting her see him is wrong but she screams when i ask her does she want to see daddy,lately she is throwing tantrums and has tol me she told her friends in school that daddy gets really angry at mammy.I feel so sad for her like i have let her down some way,after all she is only 6.:(

In that case forget him and while your still young find someone that can treat you and your daughter right .. Theres still plenty of time for happiness for you both and a stepdad with his heart in the right place could be just what she needs.

estar · 25-01-2009 2:56pm

i dont know what happened between you, but it must have been more than just mammy and daddy shouting a few times.

i dont think the people who have given you the advice to make her see him maybe realise how serious your situation is.

children dont get that reaction from something mild, in my experience.

you cannot force your child to love and enjoy her father. you can grant access but you cannot force access. that would be counter productive.

time. explain honestly her reaction to him, and say in a few months he can start calling around for tea, perhaps, with other members of his family, so that you are not on your own with him. perhaps his mother or father or sister could accompany him.

and that way he can start building a new relationship with her. for that is what he has to do. it will take patience.

but in the meantime HE MUST AGREE TO SOME FORM OF THERAPY. OTHERWISE ITS NO DEAL. NO THERAPY. NO CONTACT.

estar · 25-01-2009 3:02pm

i know that john of god hospitals do good anger management courses.

he most definitely needs this.

for his own happiness and your childs.

contact www.cosc.ie and see what support groups they can put you in touch with. i really feel support from other women in your situation would really benefit you, as they have gone through and felt everything you have.

MagicMarker · 25-01-2009 3:03pm

normalzone wrote: »

In that case forget him and while your still young find someone that can treat you and your daughter right .. Theres still plenty of time for happiness for you both and a stepdad with his heart in the right place could be just what she needs.

Of course... that's right OP, all you need is a good man! How would you ever survive without one!? :rolleyes:

He's the father, no one can change that. Unless he's a murdering rapist he doesn't deserve to have his child taken away from him.

liz72 · 25-01-2009 3:06pm

I have tried to make him see he has a problem and to go get counselling but he just says sorry.it wont happen again but it does.He is nice for a few weeks then turns again.At one point i thought he was using something because he has a history with ****.One time we were arguing and he was foaming at the mouth,his excuse was i bring the bad temper out in him!

liz72 · 25-01-2009 3:08pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Of course... that's right OP, all you need is a good man! How would you ever survive without one!? :rolleyes:

He's the father, no one can change that. Unless he's a murdering rapist he doesn't deserve to have his child taken away from him.

Thats a fair point but what do you do when your child doesnt want to go force her!:eek:

Salome · 25-01-2009 3:09pm

Your name for this thread is quite interesting - Is he worth it anymore? From your point of view, no he's not - you've shown him the door - I'd keep it that way. However, from your child's point of view, it's a bit different. She needs to see her dad otherwise, in later years, she may blame you just as much as he will.

What are his folks like? Can you arrange a visit to Granny with your child that they can be present while her dad is there so she won't feel so upset? They'll miss her just as much.

ladyella · 25-01-2009 3:09pm

MagicMarker the OP isnt taking his child away from him?! Its the child who doesnt want to see her father!! And I can hardly say I blame her... she is 6 years old and so far she associates him with upset... You can hardly compare making her see him with being made to eat veg!!:eek:

MagicMarker · 25-01-2009 3:14pm

ladyella wrote: »

MagicMarker the OP isnt taking his child away from him?! Its the child who doesnt want to see her father!! And I can hardly say I blame her... she is 6 years old and so far she associates him with upset... You can hardly compare making her see him with being made to eat veg!!:eek:

Yes I can.

Children are usually scared of dentists. Should we just accept this and allow their teeth to deteriorate?

I think given time (a rather short period of time at that) the child will get over her fears. Wrapping her up in bubble wrap won't do her any favours.

estar · 25-01-2009 3:16pm

liz72 wrote: »

I have tried to make him see he has a problem and to go get counselling but he just says sorry.it wont happen again but it does.He is nice for a few weeks then turns again.At one point i thought he was using something because he has a history with ****.One time we were arguing and he was foaming at the mouth,his excuse was i bring the bad temper out in him!

sometimes people need to lose something to realise they need help.

i suggest explaining to him honestly the reaction you get when you suggest to your child that she meets daddy. say that you are completely open to her meeting with his extended family in the meantime, but he needs help.

and until he gets that help, it would be irresponsible for you as a parent to hand her over to him, unsupervised (dont tell him that last bit)

but in my opinion, it would be.

domestic violence isnt solved by saying sorry and trying hard.

he has problems in controlling his temper - he is out of control and hasnt learned how to be in control.

and until he learns, he is kind of dangerous. he cannot manage this on his own.

so no unsupervised contact with his child for now. if you can ask for the support of his family or your family in all this.

normalzone · 25-01-2009 3:22pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Of course... that's right OP, all you need is a good man! How would you ever survive without one!? :rolleyes:

He's the father, no one can change that. Unless he's a murdering rapist he doesn't deserve to have his child taken away from him.

I got taken out of context a little there. I mean what i said before at the same time as this . If he isn't that bad try and get your daughter to see him and build a healthy relationship with him but if he is a total psycho tell him to get help and leave it at that for a while and find someone that treats you right. You deserve experiencing a healthy relationship after what sounds like 14 years of torture. He doesn't have to be a murdering rapist . Just a bad role model that your daughter doesn't need at her impressionable age . Me saying for her to get a decent man is just my way of saying move on and be happy

no need to get all feminist on me :P

estar · 25-01-2009 3:25pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yes I can.

Children are usually scared of dentists. Should we just accept this and allow their teeth to deteriorate?

I think given time (a rather short period of time at that) the child will get over her fears. Wrapping her up in bubble wrap won't do her any favours.

im sorry but are you seriously recommending forcing a child to spend time unsupervised with someone she is afraid of, and someone who has problems controlling his anger to the extent that he has repeatedly abused his partner?

are you seriously comparing a child not wanting to eat vegetables to a child not wanting to spend time with someone they are afraid might hit them?

what is wrong with you?

THIS CHILD IS AFRAID HER FATHER WILL HIT HER AND MAYBE SHE IS RIGHT?

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS STORY IS THAT THE ADULTS PROTECT THE CHILD.

AND WHEN ONE OF THE ADULTS IS OUT OF CONTROL THE OTHER ACTS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

now no one is suggesting that the child shouldnt have contact ever again.

but the father needs to deal with his anger management problem seriously
before he can be trusted on his own with his child. thankfully the childs mother isnt interested in doing the easy thing which would be handing over the child and is actually thinking about her childs welfare before her own.

it would be easy to continue giving into this bully to have an easy life.

but instead she has drawn his anger upon her in the form of removal of financial support and nasty texts.

the child needs to learn that she is safe. and the father needs to grow up, accept he f&cked up, that he needs help and that he cant just bully everything into place.

that he actually has to work for a childs trust.

that trust is earned over time with patience and unselfish love.

CathyMoran · 25-01-2009 3:26pm

In my opinion he lost his rights to see his child when he started to beat you up. I am not saying that he should not see his daughter in the future but only when he has received help and even then only supervised.

MagicMarker · 25-01-2009 3:50pm

estar wrote: »

im sorry but are you seriously recommending forcing a child to spend time unsupervised with someone she is afraid of, and someone who has problems controlling his anger to the extent that he has repeatedly abused his partner?

are you seriously comparing a child not wanting to eat vegetables to a child not wanting to spend time with someone they are afraid might hit them?

what is wrong with you?

Absolutely nothing is wrong with me. Thanks for asking.

estar wrote: »

THIS CHILD IS AFRAID HER FATHER WILL HIT HER AND MAYBE SHE IS RIGHT?

Maybe she isn't? The OP hasn't said anything about her ex being violent towards the child in any way what so ever. For all you know he could be a very loving father.

estar wrote: »

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS STORY IS THAT THE ADULTS PROTECT THE CHILD.

Is the child in danger? I don't think so, if that were the case I think the OP may have mentioned it.

estar wrote: »

AND WHEN ONE OF THE ADULTS IS OUT OF CONTROL THE OTHER ACTS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

now no one is suggesting that the child shouldnt have contact ever again.

but the father needs to deal with his anger management problem seriously
before he can be trusted on his own with his child. thankfully the childs mother isnt interested in doing the easy thing which would be handing over the child and is actually thinking about her childs welfare before her own.

it would be easy to continue giving into this bully to have an easy life.

but instead she has drawn his anger upon her in the form of removal of financial support and nasty texts.

the child needs to learn that she is safe. and the father needs to grow up, accept he f&cked up, that he needs help and that he cant just bully everything into place.

that he actually has to work for a childs trust.

that trust is earned over time with patience and unselfish love.

Out of control? Does he wield an axe in his spare time or something? All the men you see walking down the street with their children, you may be amazed but you can be damn sure some of them have a nasty temper and may have even hit a woman at some stage. Should their children be taken away from them pending mental assessments?

Unfortunately, this is the real world, where parents aren't perfect and children have to accept that. Adults fight, some adults throw fists and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. In this case the child was unlucky enough to witness it, and yes, she's scared, completely normal reaction. But keeping her at arms length is only going to enforce that fear and ensure she only sees the bad in her father.

The fact that her father may seek professional help won't make a blind bit of difference to her. She'll still be scared no matter what reassurances you try and give her. The only way she will ever get over that fear is if she faces it. She'll kick and she'll scream and she'll cry, and it will be hard. But given time, she'll start to see some good again, and eventually, she won't be afraid anymore.

edit: This post is written on the premise that the father hasn't been abusive to the child. Of course I'd think differently otherwise.

liz72 · 25-01-2009 3:53pm

estar wrote: »

im sorry but are you seriously recommending forcing a child to spend time unsupervised with someone she is afraid of, and someone who has problems controlling his anger to the extent that he has repeatedly abused his partner?

are you seriously comparing a child not wanting to eat vegetables to a child not wanting to spend time with someone they are afraid might hit them?

what is wrong with you?

THIS CHILD IS AFRAID HER FATHER WILL HIT HER AND MAYBE SHE IS RIGHT?

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS STORY IS THAT THE ADULTS PROTECT THE CHILD.

AND WHEN ONE OF THE ADULTS IS OUT OF CONTROL THE OTHER ACTS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

now no one is suggesting that the child shouldnt have contact ever again.

but the father needs to deal with his anger management problem seriously
before he can be trusted on his own with his child. thankfully the childs mother isnt interested in doing the easy thing which would be handing over the child and is actually thinking about her childs welfare before her own.

it would be easy to continue giving into this bully to have an easy life.

but instead she has drawn his anger upon her in the form of removal of financial support and nasty texts.

the child needs to learn that she is safe. and the father needs to grow up, accept he f&cked up, that he needs help and that he cant just bully everything into place.

that he actually has to work for a childs trust.

that trust is earned over time with patience and unselfish love.

The last time he had her in mc donalds,he started shouting at youngfellas running around.My daughter told me he scared her.I only have her interests at heart and feel like he is a loose canon.Thanks for understanding.

estar · 25-01-2009 4:04pm

ok - i can see we are not going to agree. and i dont want to waste the ops
post with a tennis match of posts about your opinion.

but can i just say - that there is not being a perfect parent.

and then there is the totally unacceptable and inexcusable issue of domestic abuse.

no one is saying that men have to be perfect fathers and husbands. and we all lose our tempers.

but i know many men who dont beat their wives.

hitting people is not ok. it is not in the range of what we accept as normal.
it is not a whoops, lost me temper there love moment. WHAT HAPPENED TO WALKING AWAY.

it is not ok.

it is not normal. it means you have a problem particularly if you do it to the extent that your child is afraid of you and tells other people.

children are exceptionally protective of their parents. they dont like telling on them. they forgive them practically everything. they make excuses for them.

anyone who has worked with children in danger will tell you this.

so for me to hear that a child openly admits being afraid of her father and throws a tantrum before meeting him, tells me, yes it was bad.

i just wanted to make that point so that people reading this dont get the impression that domestic abuse is part of the range of normal family existence that we should accept.

it isnt it isnt it isnt it isnt. ever. ever. ever. ever. there. is no. excuse.
there is no justification for beating your partner in front of your child.

it damages children to watch and teaches them unhealthy patterns of behaviour that can last a life time and teaches them that when you dont win an arguement you just use force. or else that its ok for your man to beat you, as you probably brought it on yourself.

a child is better brought up by a single parent than being exposed to domestic abuse. a person that doesnt see that violence is a problem is a person that isnt a fit parent. i have no problem with someone who used to use violence but then changed and learned how to control their tempers. that takes time though. and this man currently hasnt done that. he is still in the - you drove me to it camp. and where he needs to be is in the - how could i do that to my partner and child - i hate myself for it, i need help, i am going to seek that help and win back my childs trust over time camp.

and thats my final comment.

estar · 25-01-2009 4:06pm

can i also add - that seeing your mother being beaten is child abuse.

he has already been abusive to his child.

estar · 25-01-2009 4:11pm

liz72 wrote: »

The last time he had her in mc donalds,he started shouting at youngfellas running around.My daughter told me he scared her.I only have her interests at heart and feel like he is a loose canon.Thanks for understanding.

the message you have sent to your child is mammy protects me. when she grows up and a man puts his hand on her, she will have learned - i dont have to put up with that.

if he cant accept he has a problem, then he needs to learn the hard way, through losing access to his child until he can prove he has changed.

that is what is in the best interests of your daughter.

you are a great example to women who have faced this problem. you are trying to give him a chance to see his daughter, and are also trying to do the right thing by her. and putting yourself last. that is what being a good parent is all about. not doing the easy thing.

time is what this situation needs, and hope. i hope he gets help and regains a relationship with his daughter.

but for now your child comes first.

well done!!!!!

flibbertyjibbet · 25-01-2009 4:53pm

Magic Marker, I really can't believe your argument.

Of course the father is out of control. Getting physically violent in an argument is losing control. What are you suggesting? That a man sometimes calmly and rationally approaches his partner during an argument and ends the matter by punching her? That does not sound normal to me, it sounds worse than losing control, it sounds psychotic.

Of course parents aren't perfect but there's a big difference between that and what's going on here. If we were told he was shooting up heroin you would probably say he needs to sort himself out not "well he doesn't do it in front of the child, and no one's perfect so it's ok." It's the same with adults throwing fists, yes it happens but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Now if the father is out of control then of course the child is in danger. The OP said that she was told "she brings out the temper in him." The OP said in a previous post that he shouted at some children that were running around in a family restaurant. These things lead me to this conclusion; if he has such an extreme response to sometimes irritating but ultimately normal childish behaviour and can be so riled up by an argument with an adult that he hits her, I can safely say there's a very high chance that he will get just as riled up by a six year old at some point, and she is in danger of violence.

The OP is doing exactly the right thing as a parent. If someone has a valid reason for fearing for the safety of her child, (like history of physical attack) they don't expose their child to it because "sure it might be grand."

I don't think it should be ignored that the child is afraid of her father. As another poster said, comparing it to a trip to the dentist is ridiculous. Fear of the dentist is mostly irrational. But this child has seen this man get angry at her mother and beat her, so her fear is rational. Kids fear the dentist because an unfamiliar person is leaning over them with strange instruments and they feel insecure and in threat of danger and pain. A parent should never be assosiated with those things.

To the OP, I agree with others who say you shouldn't allow unsupervised visits for the moment. He really needs to get to the bottom of his issues. It's sad that your daughter has a fear of her father, perhaps this can be reduced by regular visits with you or other family members present. But as others said, I think he must agree to professional help. Well done on breaking away from him, and I think you are acting in the best interest of your daughter. Best of luck.

liz72 · 25-01-2009 5:02pm

flibbertyjibbet wrote: »

Magic Marker, I really can't believe your argument.

Of course the father is out of control. Getting physically violent in an argument is losing control. What are you suggesting? That a man sometimes calmly and rationally approaches his partner during an argument and ends the matter by punching her? That does not sound normal to me, it sounds worse than losing control, it sounds psychotic.

Of course parents aren't perfect but there's a big difference between that and what's going on here. If we were told he was shooting up heroin you would probably say he needs to sort himself out not "well he doesn't do it in front of the child, and no one's perfect so it's ok." It's the same with adults throwing fists, yes it happens but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Now if the father is out of control then of course the child is in danger. The OP said that she was told "she brings out the temper in him." The OP said in a previous post that he shouted at some children that were running around in a family restaurant. These things lead me to this conclusion; if he has such an extreme response to sometimes irritating but ultimately normal childish behaviour and can be so riled up by an argument with an adult that he hits her, I can safely say there's a very high chance that he will get just as riled up by a six year old at some point, and she is in danger of violence.

The OP is doing exactly the right thing as a parent. If someone has a valid reason for fearing for the safety of her child, (like history of physical attack) they don't expose their child to it because "sure it might be grand."

I don't think it should be ignored that the child is afraid of her father. As another poster said, comparing it to a trip to the dentist is ridiculous. Fear of the dentist is mostly irrational. But this child has seen this man get angry at her mother and beat her, so her fear is rational. Kids fear the dentist because an unfamiliar person is leaning over them with strange instruments and they feel insecure and in threat of danger and pain. A parent should never be assosiated with those things.

To the OP, I agree with others who say you shouldn't allow unsupervised visits for the moment. He really needs to get to the bottom of his issues. It's sad that your daughter has a fear of her father, perhaps this can be reduced by regular visits with you or other family members present. But as others said, I think he must agree to professional help. Well done on breaking away from him, and I think you are acting in the best interest of your daughter. Best of luck.

Thanks for your advice,none of this is easy for me,but im trying to do right by my child.I live in hope that he himself will realise one day that he needs help but my general feeling is people dont change.Thanks.

CDfm · 25-01-2009 7:27pm

Domestic Violence is wrong whether the victim is mkan,woman or child.

Inexcuseable and you should quit the relationship.

Is he worth it anymore?

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