Welfare working "flat out"

stepbar

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0123/welfare.html

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this..... Mary Hanifin must not know what these guys do. Paper pushing in its best form. The whole "applying for dole" process should be oursourced to a company who would do it efficently. Rant over.

doolox

Outsourcing something as politically sensitive as Social Welfare to a company would be disastrous. Social Welfare needs links to Health, to sort out the unemployed who have a health problem, to Education to sort out those in need of further training, and to Justice to sort out those of bad character or chancing their arm.
You couldn't get that in a private company.
Who would get the contract?
Who would they have to bribe?
In Britain they tried to outsource the Prison service and it led to a profit-driven service with poor record of keeping people in secure custody or illtreating others.
This would also be a step too far.

Jet Black

This is what I thought when I seen the title...

kayos

doolox wrote: »

Outsourcing something as politically sensitive as Social Welfare to a company would be disastrous. Social Welfare needs links to Health, to sort out the unemployed who have a health problem, to Education to sort out those in need of further training, and to Justice to sort out those of bad character or chancing their arm.
You couldn't get that in a private company.
Who would get the contract?
Who would they have to bribe?
In Britain they tried to outsource the Prison service and it led to a profit-driven service with poor record of keeping people in secure custody or illtreating others.
This would also be a step too far.

On the flip side in the UK they outsourced the back office of the Passport Service and saw improvements in productivity. We're talking 80% of and improvement!

There is nothing stopping a private sector company flagging the health/education/law issues you listed when they need to. In fact the contract for outsourcing could most likely be written that they get a bonus for finding all the fraudsters so they will go hell for leather to do so. There could also be SLA's written into the contract which would mean if the private company were not doing the work quick enough they would be losing money.

Who would get the contract? Well it would go out to tender in the normal process and then the proposal that provided the best value for money and best services would win out (ok ideal world).

This would mean the private company could hire staff and these are easily let go when not needed or under performing or increase staffing level via temp staff if required. Unlike PS/CS staff which are in their job for life.

If a contract was written up with a fixed figure retainer for the private company and then a payment per unit of work it would be in the interest of the private company to get those units of work done bloody quick. In PS/CS well if it takes twice as long they still get paid.

Nolanger

Love the way the backlog is due to lack of staff rather than poor management or inefficieny :rolleyes:
Your local dole office is full of middle-aged women who used to work in the Civil Service back in the '70s but had to leave when they got married. A few years ago they were asked to rejoin the CS. Not exactly the most productive or energetic of people.
Also, a lot of the staff there are worksharers which means when you make a claim it will end up on someone's desk who will be off work for the next week. Then when the arrive back into the office they have to write out to you for something hence more delays.
Also, there's a high turnover of staff in these places so the newer staff just don't have the knowledge or experience. Hence the contradictory information given out e.g. you must register with FAS/ no need to register with FAS.
Finally, there's far too much paper work in these offices where computers could do it much quicker and accurately.

IsThatSo?

Nolanger wrote: »

Your local dole office is full of middle-aged women who used to work in the Civil Service back in the '70s but had to leave when they got married. A few years ago they were asked to rejoin the CS. Not exactly the most productive or energetic of people.

I disagree, not to mention that its insulting and uncalled for. Nope, I am not one of that age group either!!!

I have worked with people of all ages and funnily enough I found the "very early twenties" group to be more hassle. The had an entitlement attitude and thought everybody owed them. It was rare to find one who wanted to work towards promotion. They were all great kids though, fun and lively to work with

For the older staff (yes, mostly ladies who had raised children and been out of the workforce for a number of years) my experience was that they were there because they wanted to be and once they got over the lack of confidence (probably brought on by attitudes such as yours) they thrived and were far more reliable than the younger staff!!! They had less sick (hangover) days and were far more patient and decent to customers

Yes, I am generalising also, but that is my experience. I haven't worked in the CS/PS mind you.

parsi

stepbar wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0123/welfare.html

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this..... Mary Hanifin must not know what these guys do. Paper pushing in its best form. The whole "applying for dole" process should be oursourced to a company who would do it efficently. Rant over.

I suppose they could transfer in the guys from Anglo - they're used to processing paperwork without really looking at it....

Or they could outsource it to Anglo's auditors - they seem to sign off on anything once they're paid.

kayos wrote: »

On the flip side in the UK they outsourced the back office of the Passport Service and saw improvements in productivity. We're talking 80% of and improvement!

This article would suggest that all is not rosy in the passport area (and it's from the Daily Express which we all know is virtually _the_ paper of record in the UK (or so my sister-in-laws hairdressers brother said)):

http://www.express.co.uk/news/view/12838/Interpol:-Britain-is-letting-in-terrorists

Myself and herself took out SSIAs with different companies - mine was setup in a matter of days but hers took nearly 3 weeks due to pure incompetence on the banks part.

At the end of the day it seems to be a case that shortcuts are taken due to lackadaisicalness (public sector) or cost management (private sector). The end result is much the same.

doolox

It is my experience that both sectors can have inefficient, hostile and slow service regardless of the security of tenure of the staff involved. If you have lack of individual accountability then it will in time lead to a slow down in service and an unwillingness to speed up.
On the other hand those in private employment in temporary employment and unsure of their jobs can also provide slow service.
What is needed is leadership from on high to motivate the workforce with example.
I have seen this only once in Ireland in a Dunnes stores in Galway where the manager opened a spare till and helped out to get rid of a queue and help take pressure off his staff.
The usual response in other stores to such situations is for management staff to look on as if helpless or give out to their frontline staff to try harder........
They don't seem to grasp the importance of leading from the front to instill team spirit and pride in the job in their staff.

dudara

The place is ideally suited to Six Sigma or Lean Six Sigma. It's crying out for some standard processes and performance measures. It will be interesting to see what happens.

parsi

heymcflyx wrote: »

This is what I thought when I seen the title...

That picture has been bugging me and now I know why,.. it's the inside of my local bank and that explains what they do between clocking on time and opening-door to public time.

Seriously though I don't see the point of the current round of scapegoating. If we are all to be believed then our problems are all because of someone else - the Gov, the Public Sector, the Banks, the Developers, The Others.

However it's a confluence of all those things - we wanted to buy houses at any price (but moaned at those who did), we wanted the bank to fund us even if our details were "fuzzy" (but yet we rail at the banks for funding others), we wanted the government to give us tax relief for this that and the other whilst at the same time investing funds in those particular things we wanted. We wanted our employees to work for as little as possible but wanted as much as possible for ourselves, we wanted to sell luxury TVs to all and sundry even if they were in poor-paying jobs.

In short - we got greedy and now it's "someone else's" fault.

doolox

Big ticket items such as cars, houses and big TV's require a steady long-term income or at least an environment where it is easy to get a job to ensure continuity of that income.
This does not exist at the moment. A lot of people are in short-term contracts with little or no security, no development plans or scope for increasing their skills or income and fear for their jobs.
Any wonder no one is buying houses, cars etc and all those businesses are going bust............
Next to go as the money supply tightens will be holidays, entertainment consumer goods such as clothes etc as people concentrate on essentials only.
The fall of communism came when people realised it was all a pack of lies and didn't work as planned. We are now seeing the fall of laissez-faire capitalism which promised much in terms of opportunity and wealth but led to a jungle of competing, badly funded and badly led companies, each treating their employees badly and making them insecure and we wonder why the average Joe Citizen is afraid to upgrade his car or buy a house????
As a community we need to instill new skills in our people in terms of money management, people development, interpersonal skills and selling themselves in an increasingly hostile jobs market.
We need to encourage firms to look at retaining talented staff for longer than 12 months in order for them to acquire meaningful skills which they can use to strengthen their self-worth and security in the marketplace.
Continuing education and training will be the key to the future, governments need to encourage this with tax-exemption on further education fees, funding of courses for urgent cases, such as long-term unemployed.Discouragment of social practices which lead to poor performance at work such as drink, violence or reckless lifestyles which can be anything from car crashes to carelessness in eating habits leading to illness or other health problems, cigarette and drug abuse etc.
A root and branch analysis of waste in the workplace should be carried out to see if there is any solution that can be offered. Several workplaces have an Employee Assistance Program which offers free of charge counselling and treatment for a wide range of personal problems such as drug and drink addiction, money problems, sleeplessness, anxiety, bullying, bad interpersonal relationships and a host of other problems which can affect productivity and competiveness. This needs to be expanded in order for the remaining firms to survive and exist in the future.
Every unemployed citizen and many underemployed, underperforming and fearful ones who need to increase their job security, should be able to embark on a life-long course to get the skills and training they need to get a secure job or series of jobs in order to build up their confidence and get people spending again. I don't think Ireland can tackle this on its own but it can show leadership by making a start. In the past we showed leadership in rapid reaction to a Foot-and Mouth disease crisis which drew praise from our neighbours across the water. The world community has the height of respect for the way we tackled the Northern Ireland peace process.
We also led in the way we moved quickly to guarantee the banks, something a small, united and agile country can do quickly and the Americans could not do.
We need to find some new form of political economy, not communism, not socialism or capitalism but something which takes the good of all systems and uses technology and knowledge to give confidence and self-worth back to our people.

Nolanger

dudara wrote: »

The place is ideally suited to Six Sigma or Lean Six Sigma. It's crying out for some standard processes and performance measures. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Of course it is but that is just too sensible an idea to apply to a dole office.
What will happen is that more staff will be sent into the existing flawed system rather than trying to improve the place.

Lemming

I'm not one to defend civil servants and indeed I have plenty of arguments against some of them, but I get to hear some of what's been going on in the Dept. of Social Welfare (or at least on the shop floor so to speak) over the last few months since I have a family member working for them. They (or at least some of the offices) are brutally understaffed since people were not being replaced as they were leaving and are unable to cope with the increasing workload. Anecdotally, I believe one of the offices in the West (Galway maybe?) was actually "locked" from new entries for about a month to allow them to process the back-catalogue of a few thousand new applicants.

And yet there are government departments and offices that are overstaffed and not doing much. They should be transferring some of the excess to areas where it genuinely is needed.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I hate dealing with that shower of ****. It's all they are, you would be better treated as a criminal. Any time I am in my local office the hatches are always closed, they let the queue build up with only one person dealing with it. They don't give a sh!t to tell you the truth.

dblennon

IsThatSo? Quote:
I disagree, not to mention that its insulting and uncalled for. Nope, I am not one of that age group either!!!

I have worked with people of all ages and funnily enough I found the "very early twenties" group to be more hassle. The had an entitlement attitude and thought everybody owed them. It was rare to find one who wanted to work towards promotion. They were all great kids though, fun and lively to work with

For the older staff (yes, mostly ladies who had raised children and been out of the workforce for a number of years) my experience was that they were there because they wanted to be and once they got over the lack of confidence (probably brought on by attitudes such as yours) they thrived and were far more reliable than the younger staff!!! They had less sick (hangover) days and were far more patient and decent to customers

Yes, I am generalising also, but that is my experience. I haven't worked in the CS/PS mind you.


I think the above quote is gas, and is indicative of the type of people that work in the Civil service.

1. "I found the "very early twenties" group to be more hassle."
so what your saying is they didn't want to learn? or that they were ill equiped to handle the job, or had no interest in what they are doing??

2."The had an entitlement attitude and thought everybody owed them." pot kettle!!! nobody in the private sector could possibly have that attitude because there generally define lines and requirements in the business that show you every day how liitle you actually know and how far you have to go to make it.

3."It was rare to find one who wanted to work towards promotion." glad to see HR still finding these people and hiring them

4. I could go on but the "sick days" & reliability pieces speak more about the attitudes inside your job than I ever could.

stepbar

Lemming wrote: »

I'm not one to defend civil servants and indeed I have plenty of arguments against some of them, but I get to hear some of what's been going on in the Dept. of Social Welfare (or at least on the shop floor so to speak) over the last few months since I have a family member working for them. They (or at least some of the offices) are brutally understaffed since people were not being replaced as they were leaving and are unable to cope with the increasing workload. Anecdotally, I believe one of the offices in the West (Galway maybe?) was actually "locked" from new entries for about a month to allow them to process the back-catalogue of a few thousand new applicants.

And yet there are government departments and offices that are overstaffed and not doing much. They should be transferring some of the excess to areas where it genuinely is needed.

The system of processing a dole application is flawed. And the system of maintaining same is also flawed. Did you know that even before the "recession" it took up on 3 days to access an application and put it into payment (and that's assuming that the person had everything needed on the day they went to the hatch). Exactly why do you need up on 3 seperate people to look at an application? Why not have a person who handles the process from start to finish? Max 2 people, one to take / approve and one to check / approve. Why not train up everyone to access an application. It's not rocket science. Shur the unions wouldn't be having that :rolleyes:

In the place I worked each and every application passed through the hands of 3 people (actually 4 because I used to maintain the box of "open" applications, lol). FFS there isn't a 3 days cycle in the process. It's crazy. If the rest of the departments are "overstaffed" then the Welfare must be like Angola. If you compare the Dept of Revenue and the systems they have (like ROS) vs The Dept of Welfare it's crazy that in this day in age the most important departments still haven't developed a system based around your PPS number. They tried (eBroker - http://taoiseach.irlgov.ie/index.asp?docID=338) and that failed because depts couldn't agree with each other.

Finally, I used to work for a company called Filenet (Now owned by IBM - http://www-01.ibm.com/software/data/content-management/filenet-content-manager/). When I think of what a company like Filenet could do with the Civil Service and their processes, it makes me want to bang my head off the table.

parsi

For comparison - it took 4 weeks for AIB to open an additional bank account for me. The reason "oh we're snowed under".

When we took out our mortgage it took 2.5 months. It seemed that half of the bank had to have a look at some part of it. Then again it seems that bank officials are like public servants in that they too can go out on strike and hold to country to ransom.

Broadband (BT) took 3.5 months to get right but we changed to a private bin company in a couple of days.

Moral of the story ? When it comes to paperwork it seems that the bigger the organisation the slower the process.

Mrs OBumble

parsi wrote: »

Moral of the story ? When it comes to paperwork it seems that the bigger the organisation the slower the process.

+1000

'Tis the same the world over. And many would say inevitable.

Granted, the differnce between Welfare and Revenue is particularly large here in Ireland. Guess it comes down to whether they spend or get money for the government

Nolanger

stepbar wrote: »

Exactly why do you need up on 3 seperate people to look at an application?

Simple really - fraud.
If one person was allowed register and award a claim then they could very easily register any existing PPS number for the dole and put the money into their own bank account each week.

stepbar

Nolanger wrote: »

Simple really - fraud.
If one person was allowed register and award a claim then they could very easily register any existing PPS number for the dole and put the money into their own bank account each week.

No it's not that simple. Payments are all done through the post office now so you can't setup a payment to yourself into a bank a/c. The facility has been taken out of use because some customers were claiming and living abroad. There's scope for taking bodies out of the system. As I said one person is only needed to process the procedure and another to check. A third (the auditor) would check procedures once a year. When I was doing research for my masters, the office manager I interviewed said they hasn't an audit in 7 years!!!.

The process for applying for a PPS is totally different than the process for applying for dole. In fact the duel reporting system already exists, one person creates the application and another approves it. However with dole applications there's 3rd process which annoys me - called "Maintenance". Workers in this area maintain boxes of paper :rolleyes: IMO this should not be a seperate process and should be handled by the workers who take your first application. Some more progressive social welfare offices do this but a lot others don't. In effect duplication exists.

stepbar

parsi wrote: »

For comparison - it took 4 weeks for AIB to open an additional bank account for me. The reason "oh we're snowed under".

When we took out our mortgage it took 2.5 months. It seemed that half of the bank had to have a look at some part of it. Then again it seems that bank officials are like public servants in that they too can go out on strike and hold to country to ransom.

Broadband (BT) took 3.5 months to get right but we changed to a private bin company in a couple of days.

Moral of the story ? When it comes to paperwork it seems that the bigger the organisation the slower the process.

That's just wrong Parsi and you know it. In terms of a mortgage application, it's the customer that more often than not delays the process. As you're well aware there's terms and conditions that must be met prior to drawdown. These are in large determined by the customer / vendor in conjunction with their solicitors and how quick each of them can act on the others instructions. So you've given a poor example there. I don't know what type of account you were trying to open but that sounds a wee bit exaggerated. And the comment I've highlighted above, is utterly rediculus and has no relivance to anything.

Nolanger

stepbar wrote: »

No it's not that simple. Payments are all done through the post office now so you can't setup a payment to yourself into a bank a/c. The facility has been taken out of use because some customers were claiming and living abroad. There's scope for taking bodies out of the system. As I said one person is only needed to process the procedure and another to check. A third (the auditor) would check procedures once a year. When I was doing research for my masters, the office manager I interviewed said they hasn't an audit in 7 years!!!.

The process for applying for a PPS is totally different than the process for applying for dole. In fact the duel reporting system already exists, one person creates the application and another approves it.

Talk about misreading a thread!
Any staff can put the payment into the post office and collect it themselves using a PPS card they have ordered.
Also, they can still put money into their bank account especially large-figure once off payments.
I didn't say register a PPS number - register a claim using any existing PPS that's currently not claiming social welfare.

Caoimhín

Working flat out at the moment?

I wonder how they will find it when unemployment hits 15%.

Nolanger

Actually unemployment is probably at 15% now but the figures are being hidden because of something that wasn't widely available back in the '80s - Disability Allowance.
Add in the number of people on this - many who have transferred from long-term unemployment and the numbers out of work are higher than reported.

parsi

stepbar wrote: »

That's just wrong Parsi and you know it. In terms of a mortgage application, it's the customer that more often than not delays the process. As you're well aware there's terms and conditions that must be met prior to drawdown. These are in large determined by the customer / vendor in conjunction with their solicitors and how quick each of them can act on the others instructions. So you've given a poor example there. I don't know what type of account you were trying to open but that sounds a wee bit exaggerated. And the comment I've highlighted above, is utterly rediculus and has no relivance to anything.

1.No exaggeration there my friend. Pure inability of the bank to understand the building trade (god bless 'em) down this part of the world.

2.The account was a parent deposit account - a simple to open account that required no corroboration. Took a few phone calls to find out the reason for the delay.

3. Do you not remember the last time the bank officials went on strike and held the country to ransom ? It wasn't all that long ago. It's a relevant comment - it shows that many other areas in our country are slow, inefficient and not adverse to striking.

stepbar

parsi wrote: »

1.No exaggeration there my friend. Pure inability of the bank to understand the building trade (god bless 'em) down this part of the world.

The bank has a more than adequate understanding of the building trade. The bank doesn't just base their judgement on one opinion but many opinions. Wrong or right but that's the way it is.

2.The account was a parent deposit account - a simple to open account that required no corroboration. Took a few phone calls to find out the reason for the delay.

Fair enough.

3. Do you not remember the last time the bank officials went on strike and held the country to ransom ? It wasn't all that long ago. It's a relevant comment - it shows that many other areas in our country are slow, inefficient and not adverse to striking.

1992. That was 17 years ago Parsi. Name one since.

.

stepbar

Nolanger wrote: »

Talk about misreading a thread!
Any staff can put the payment into the post office and collect it themselves using a PPS card they have ordered.
Also, they can still put money into their bank account especially large-figure once off payments.
I didn't say register a PPS number - register a claim using any existing PPS that's currently not claiming social welfare.

And same staff member would have to take a day off every time they put a payment into action as they would have to collect same. Would you cop yourself on please.

Nolanger

Cop yourself on - a day off work to go to a post office?
Staff can go to the PO first thing in the morning, at lunchtime, or after work at 4.
Not all Dole Offices are 10 miles from the nearest PO.

stepbar

Nolanger wrote: »

Cop yourself on - a day off work to go to a post office?
Staff can go to the PO first thing in the morning, at lunchtime, or after work at 4.
Not all Dole Offices are 10 miles from the nearest PO.

O and did I forget to mention sign on once a month at different times and queue up, have a different pps / address each time, perhaps have to travel to a different postcode for payment / sign on each time / queue up and so on. All this work for a civil servant who can only put up a payment in their own office!! I take you haven't collected the dole too often. Stop talking through your hat :rolleyes:

Nolanger

They wouldn't have to sign on every month or queue because the staff member could just update the signing date on the computer at work and collect another month's payments.
They don't need a different address each time because they can write out a temporary yellow PPS card at work and use this to collect money from the PO.
Wouldn't need to travel to a different post code for payment because the post office staff would just presume that they are the person on the PPS card.
You're the one talking through your hat - take off those blinkers.

parsi

Recent events have shown us that sufficiently motivated people can work their way past internal & external auditors.

Unfortunately this sometimes results in the bank collapsing and having to be bailed out by the taxpayer.

With money I don't believe that you can ever have too strict a control process.

geurrp the yard

Kira Hissing Chickenpox wrote: »

I hate dealing with that shower of ****. It's all they are, you would be better treated as a criminal. Any time I am in my local office the hatches are always closed, they let the queue build up with only one person dealing with it. They don't give a sh!t to tell you the truth.

Took the words out of my mouth. Is it delibratly done that they have 1 person on a hatch and the que is over 100 people long?

Nolanger

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Is it delibratly done that they have 1 person on a hatch and the que is over 100 people long?

Yes it's deliberate. There's only a small part of the office staff allocated to the signing hatch and some of these may be worksharing, out sick, on leave, or still on lunch. Having more than one or two hatches open to deal with the queue is just too sensible an idea. Could be worse though - a few years back it used to be weekly signing.

generalmiaow

I am still seeking a job and having trouble with the rent, so on the 22nd of January I applied for jobseeker's allowance, I was means tested the following Tuesday, and I received my first payment on Tuesday (two days ago). That's pretty good, especially as I heard people before having to wait six weeks.

Having said that, I haven't had to queue on sign on day as it's not for a month.

geurrp the yard

generalmiaow wrote: »

Having said that, I haven't had to queue on sign on day as it's not for a month.

HaHa thats when the fun starts.

doolox

The queues will be murder.

mirror mirror

Kira Hissing Chickenpox wrote: »

I hate dealing with that shower of ****. It's all they are, you would be better treated as a criminal. Any time I am in my local office the hatches are always closed, they let the queue build up with only one person dealing with it. They don't give a sh!t to tell you the truth.

WELL SAID, they had very little to do for past 10 year .now they actually have to do something i.e earn their wages .had to sign on in december at the local office they were as useful as tits on a bull -handed me forms told to bring them back when filled out .they didnt explain anything or offer any assistance with the forms. a lot of men signing on recently there have spoke of the attitude in that office. fu.ing ignorance would be an understatement.

Nolanger

The average boards.ie user would know more about Social Welfare entitlements from reading these threads than most staff do in a dole office.

mirror mirror

Nolanger wrote: »

The average boards.ie user would know more about Social Welfare entitlements from reading these threads than most staff do in a dole office.

and thats a fact ....... and more common courtesy...it costs nothing to be civil does it

InReality

just to give a bit of balance .. they could also be working on the thousands of cases piling up behind the counters ..

craichoe

kayos wrote: »

On the flip side in the UK they outsourced the back office of the Passport Service and saw improvements in productivity. We're talking 80% of and improvement!

Are you taking the p*ss ?
Theres a 3 week wait in Benelux for a UK passport because they've outsourced it, if you live in the Netherlands its worth your while driving 200 miles down to Dusseldorf to get your passport in 2 days.