Fixing the problems associated with the crappy Jazzmaster/Mustang bridge

Doctor J

As some of ye know, I picked up a Bigsby equipped Tele recently, complete with the much maligned Jazzmaster bridge. It's every bit as bad as legend tells, it was a bit of a surprise to see just how badly designed the whole thing was. There's a lovely gentle vibrato to the Bigsby but when the ****er goes wildly out of tune every time you breathe on it, it sucks the fun right out of it.




Anyone who has this bridge knows all about the rattles, the strings popping out and its inability to stay in tune for more than five seconds. It's really ****, I can't put into words just how clearly the design as it is simply cannot stay in tune, as long as the laws of physics apply to planet Earth.




This pic illustrates the problems - the string touches both the intonation screw and the back of the bridge baseplate, before it makes contact with the saddle. The string angle over the saddle is so shallow there is next to no force pushing the string down over the saddle, so the height adjuster nuts come loose easily, the saddles rattle around, the strings pop out of the shallow saddle grooves and there's so much friction when you use the Bigsby it won't ever go back to the pitch it was. Plus, the saddle height adjusters stick up and rip lovely soft palm flesh with ease as you strum.




As if that wasn't bad enough, the entire bridge sits precariously balanced on two of these fine points, happily wobbling back and forth with nothing but the tension of the strings lightly resting on top of it to keep it upright. There's about 1cm of travel back and forth in the ferrules as they are and the whole thing moves with the strings when you operate the Bigsby. When you think of how much friction is affecting the string due to it grinding off the intonation screw and bridge baseplate there is no way the tension can be constant to return the bridge back to its zero point. This also screws up the intonation as the position of the saddles isn't constant in relation to the nut and, of course, general tuning too. The Mustang bridge is essentially the same design but with different saddles with just one big groove in them. Other than that, they share every other flaw and they're just as **** as the Jazzmaster design.




Happily, a quick twist of an allen key retracts these back up the shaft which is shorter than the ferrule it sits in, meaning the arse of the bridge will sit flush on the body of the guitar when fully retracted. I've put some aluminium tape (copper shielding tape would do the same thing) around the top of each shaft, enough to require a bit of force to fit it in the ferrule and this prevents the bridge moving back and forth. Stability at last.




OK, so the bridge will sit low and flat on the body and won't move around anymore. That's half the battle.




Adding a shim to the neck will slightly increase the angle of the neck against the body, meaning the saddles will need to be raised to give sufficient action. A small bit of business card folded over will add about 3mm to the required height of the strings over the bridge. I use Animal Welfare Veterinary Hospital brand business cards, they've got the best tone and make you play faster and rock harder, like scallops. I tired other brand business cards but they just didn't have the warmth I needed in my tone. I hear Steve Vai is bringing out a signature business card shim, we'll wait and see how good that is.




With the neck re-attached you can see you barely notice the angle change in the neck pocket.




But you can see the difference in string height now, they're way too low, so the saddles will need to be raised a fair bit, which will increase the string angle and get them up over the baseplate and intonation screws.




Before you string it up turn the intonation screws anti-clockwise to move the saddles towards the nut. As you raise the saddles to get the action sorted, the angle of the screw head against the baseplate will pull them back towards the Bigsby, screwing up the intonation.

John, this is what I was talking about, the ear plug used to keep the string on the post, it makes stringing the Bigsby so much easier and won't damage the finish.




With the saddles raised so the action is the same as it was before you can see how the strings now clear the intonation screw and the bridge baseplate.




The angle over the saddle is also much greater, meaning there's more force pushing the string down into the saddle grooves. Now the strings won't pop out.




The bridge height adjusters are also recessed into the saddle, so your hand won't get chafed again. Plus, there's plenty of pressure on them now so they won't rattle or come loose.




Compare this to the second pic, you can see how much more clearance there is over the bridge baseplate. You might need to raise the pickup height to compensate, but it's a minor adjustment. You'll get used to the slighlty different feel in a couple of minutes.




That's it. No more rattles, no more strings popping out, no cuts and bruises and, best of all, it stays in tune when you use the Bigsby. Honestly. Rock on!

Johnny Storm

Doctor J wrote: »

..... I use Animal Welfare Veterinary Hospital brand business cards, they've got the best tone and make you play faster and rock harder...

I knew it! :pac:

68 lost souls

Again some nice work Doc. Thanks for the tutorials as ever. Ill be working on my own soon hopefully. I would have thought that you had to adjust the nut aswel if you shimmed the neck sinc the angle of the strings will change relitave to the fretboard?

Doctor J

No, when you bring the bridge saddles up the strings run along the neck in the same way as before, you adjust the bridge so it is in the same position in relation to the nut as before.

If the strings were at a different angle that would mean the action would to too high or too low like this



but raising the saddles relative to the body only brings them back in line with the neck. The nut's position in relation to the neck never changes, nor does the general angle the strings will hit it at.

feylya

Very good tutorial. I've copied the first post into the Resources thread for future reference.

spoonbadger

Clever idea with the neck shim doc!!. I've never heard of someone using that to fix jazzmaster-cancer (errr,the bridge ) before!.

One thing i will never understand is what the deal is with spikes on bigsby bridges. It'd be soooo much easier to just drill 6 holes through the bar and pass the strings through them before tuning up!.

Glassheart

I had absolutely no tuning problems with that guitar...

I used 10's on that guitar but just before the trade i tried a set of 9's and there was a bit buzzing of it.
Sorry about the hassle.I hope you are enjoying it now!

punchdrunk

i replaced the saddles on my jag with the tusq ones from graph tech
they have individual height adjustment screws on there which is great,really improves the movement of the string across the saddle,no more popping out!

johnny12345

hey need advice, want to change over a fender acoustic from Lh to rh, big sentemental value, suppose it needs a new nut and saddle and would'nt mind lowering the action a touch, new strings and a general clean,its been in an attic for 5 years or so, quoted 150 plus seems a bit steep, to hard to do myself? recomend anyone? any advice welcome..........thanks

Doctor J

Glassheart wrote: »

I had absolutely no tuning problems with that guitar...

I used 10's on that guitar but just before the trade i tried a set of 9's and there was a bit buzzing of it.
Sorry about the hassle.I hope you are enjoying it now!

Don't worry, it's grand, it's something that affects every one of them

spoonbadger wrote: »

Clever idea with the neck shim doc!!. I've never heard of someone using that to fix jazzmaster-cancer (errr,the bridge ) before!.

One thing i will never understand is what the deal is with spikes on bigsby bridges. It'd be soooo much easier to just drill 6 holes through the bar and pass the strings through them before tuning up!.

Yeah, there are a few things that you'd scratch your head over alright

Ancient1

Great job man - I just dunno where you find the patience & stamina for this type of work!

Oooh, that last pic with the Tele against the Bassman is making me feel all funny...:pac:

Doctor J

Ancient1 wrote: »

Oooh, that last pic with the Tele against the Bassman is making me feel all funny...:pac:

That one was just for you, man, I knew you'd appreciate it. You'll notice the Fulltone, Tremolo and Holy Grail up there too

punchdrunk

Doc J is that my old Bassman? can't remember who i sold it to on here?
I miss that one

Doctor J

I don't think so... the guy I got it off said he had it for years.

punchdrunk

hmmm can't remember who i sold it to!,
i always found it was fussy with what fuzz pedals it would take
great cleans though

Doctor J

Yeah, I've had that before where you think, who are you? I sold what to you? :pac:

Yer man said it was an early 90's one, one of the original reissues? would you believe I've never actually checked I listened to it, liked the sound and that's good enough for me.

It doesn't like lots of thick fuzz or a heavy distortion that's for sure, but a Tubescreamer or especially the Fulltone giving it a playful little kick in the hoop makes it sing. Honestly, it sounds amazing with the OD, some tremolo and some reverb.

fish-head

You're a clever bugger, Doc.

Doctor J

Heh heh heh, cheers man. When it comes to paying 150 quid for a Mastery bridge or being a cheap bastard but resourceful, you may call me Scrooge

Ancient1

Doctor J wrote: »

That one was just for you, man, I knew you'd appreciate it. You'll notice the Fulltone, Tremolo and Holy Grail up there too

I did man, I did....*sigh* :pac:

So what's the deal with the Jazzmaster bridges then - is this a common problem or was yours just a dud?
Can't say I ever played one, although an incorrigibly bad Hoefner I had about 15-16 years ago had some such contraption...

Dord

Its the same on all of them, except the J Mascis signature. That one comes with a tune-o-matic bridge.

eoin5

The Classic Player Jags are like that too I think.

Doctor J

Ancient1 wrote: »

So what's the deal with the Jazzmaster bridges then - is this a common problem or was yours just a dud?

Jazzmasters, Jaguars and Mustangs all have it, by the looks of it, although the Mustang saddles just have one big string slot so the strings don't pop out quite as easily. They all share the problem of the baseplate the saddles sit in being U shaped, the saddles just don't come up high enough above the baseplate for the strings to clear the baseplate and the intonation screw. Plus the whole thing sits on two fine points with nothing to hold it steady, no zero point for want of a better term, and rattles back and forth like a spoon in an empty cup. The idea is the strings hold it in position by resting on it... just a terrible idea really. So first idea was to fix the bridge in place to take that huge variable out of it and then see what I could do to get the saddles high enough over the baseplate so the strings would have a clear run from the Bigsby to the saddle. It doesn't help that the intonations screws are in line with the middle of the saddle and, therefore, the strings too.

If you look at the second and third pics you'll see just how badly the baseplate and intonation screw interfere with the string which is the problem with these bridges. The string comes over the saddle almost horizontally and, as a result, makes very little contact with the saddle which contributes to the puny tone a lot of people give out about. Once the string has a clear line of travel it's in contact with a lot more of the surface area of the saddle, better transfer, win win win.

Dord

Ok so now you have it sorted J, you need to go play some Television. It's the rules! :pac:

Doctor J

Television? Hell no, I need to get some Danny Gatton chops together :pac:

rcaz

Wouldn't one of the main reasons you had such a rubbish time with it be that Jazzmaster bridges were designed to work with Jazzmaster vibratos? With the Bigsby, the break angle over the back of the bridge is way too severe, it wasn't designed for that. A Jazzmaster wouldn't have the strings running over the back of the bridge like on this Tele.

And what guage strings are you using, Doc?

Ancient1

Doctor J wrote: »

Jazzmasters, Jaguars and Mustangs all have it...

Well, going by what you said and how bridge designs have evolved since, I can't think of a single reason why they're still producing them except for the nostalgic and "wow, sixties" factor.

El Pr0n wrote:

And what guage strings are you using, Doc?

I wouldn't be surprised if the crazy bastard strung up that poor Tele with 13s, except he calls them "man strings".

fish-head

Doctor J wrote: »

Television? Hell no, I need to get some Danny Gatton chops together :pac:

Better chuck out the computer and come back in ten years and tell us how you're doing!

punchdrunk

Ancient1 wrote: »

Well, going by what you said and how bridge designs have evolved since, I can't think of a single reason why they're still producing them except for the nostalgic and "wow, sixties" factor.



I wouldn't be surprised if the crazy bastard strung up that poor Tele with 13s, except he calls them "man strings".

I've got 14's on the jag

and a wound G :eek:

John

Heavy strings are the only strings.

Dord

I'm so brewtal, I use 45's! :cool:















.... on my basses

Doctor J

El Pr0n wrote: »

Wouldn't one of the main reasons you had such a rubbish time with it be that Jazzmaster bridges were designed to work with Jazzmaster vibratos? With the Bigsby, the break angle over the back of the bridge is way too severe, it wasn't designed for that. A Jazzmaster wouldn't have the strings running over the back of the bridge like on this Tele.

And what guage strings are you using, Doc?

Hmmm, my experience with them is limited but the fella on the Mastery bridge site suggests this is a common problem with them and seems to be making a living out of it being a common problem. Given that when set at a reasonable action the saddles come barely 1mm over the bridge baseplate I can see it being an issue on the others too, even if the angle isn't as steep from the other trem. The strings would nearly want to be coming in horizontally to avoid the screw and baseplate but then you're back to the whole strings popping out issue. I don't believe you should be forced into using a gauge of strings by bad design, you set the guitar up the way you want it to play and it should be able to accomodate any gauge of string. If anyone with a Jag/Mustang/Jazzmaster has pics of theirs I'd be interested to see it. I don't know how many threads I've seen here with people whining about that spiral bridge. The point of this thread being that it's fixable. Plus, the idea of the bridge balancing on two sharp points is laughable, how can it ever be correctly intonated or stay in tune when the bridge moves back and forth at will with no constant zero point? The only thing keeping it in place being the pressue of the strings pushing down on the saddle which is a recognised weakness too. So while the angle over the back might not be quite the same, the height adjusters coming loose due to lack of downward pressure, them being too high in the first place and the saddles being too low, the rattling saddles, the small surface are the strings make contact with which leads to popping out and the floating bridge issues can all be at least improved on non-Bigsby guitars with this bridge using the steps above.

That's a set of 10's on there There'll be 11's on long term, I wanted to test it with a lighter gauge of string, the same strings that were on it when it buzzed, rattled and went out of tune so gloriously. Don't have any 11's in the house at the moment to set it up proper like. Shame on me :pac:

I've got 14-68's on the Empire though :P

rcaz

I've got a CIJ Jazzmaster with 12s on, and I don't have any of these problems, I just took the time to experiment with setting it up. My JM stays in tune for weeks. I think it might be something to do with the JM vibrato moving the strings up or down a semitone or a full tone at the very most, while the Bigsby would go further? The bridge moves with the strings on a JM, but on your guitar the strings would be sliding over the bridge too?

The Jazzmaster bridge isn't "crappy", and it shouldn't be written off as such, just needs some lovin'. And, it's a Jazzmaster bridge.

Doctor J

I know it's a Jazzmaster bridge, I said so at the beginning of the thread. If you want to look up Mastery bridge, you'll find a fella making a living out of a design which deals with a lot of the bad concepts which plague the Jazzmaster bridge and, to a lesser extent, the Mustang bridge too

As I said, people shouldn't have to use heavy strings because of a **** design and, in my experience using 10's (some people even like use 9's) on this guitar, the bridge can be made to work using lighter strings. I normally use 11's in E, but left the 10's on for the sake of testing my concept. It rattled and went out of tune with 10's, so I now know it works with 10's which means it should perform even better when I put 11's on it. The bridge moves with the strings, but there is no zero point, there is no fixed point with which to set the intonation. Every time you restring it, the bridge will most likely have moved to a different starting point, meaning the intonation is way off, meaning you're having tuning problems before you play it. Even if you play hard there's a good chance the entire thing could shift meaning you instantly go out of tune. I don't like that. Do the strings clear the intonation screws and baseplate on your guitar, can you post pics? I'd guess with the smaller body and scale on the Mustang it might not be the same as on the Jazzmaster. If you can display a working standard setup it would be good to post it too. A lot of people, it seems, have issues with the bridge as any cursory search would reinforce so any help you can give would be a good thing. I don't think a bridge should need some lovin' in order for it to work, it should be able to take whatever you throw at it and perform to an acceptable standard - ie not go out of tune - and that's what has been achieved here.

As I said, the idea of this post was to offer a solution to the many people who seem to experience grief with the design of the bridge. I'm not suggesting we go dance on Leo Fender's grave, just offering a possible alternative to spending money on a replacement part, which seems to be the most common bit of advice given (see spicylauren's recent thread for example).

rcaz

The point I was going for with the bold text was that, on a JM, it works fine when set up properly. The Mastery bridge is supposed to be fantastic, I've heard tons of raving reviews about it, and if it's good enough for Nels Cline, then it can't be bad. If somone wants a Mastery bridge, go for it, but it's not just a JM replacement, it's a bridge in its own right. JM bridges work fine if you set them up properly and take care of them, and a little Loctite doesn't hurt either, but I haven't found it necessary.

Here's my guitar with the stock CIJ Jazzmaster bridge:









Stays in tune, no string jumping, no hums or rattles. My favourite guitar I've ever played.

Doctor J

Have you tried it with light strings?

rcaz

It shipped with 9s on it, and yeah, there was a bit of rattling. The bridge was designed to play jazz, when 11 guage strings were considered light strings. By all means, if you want to play with 9s or 8s or whatever, JMs aren't the guitars to choose. Heavy strings sound and feel better, imo.

Doctor J

I agree, but a lot of people like 9's and 10's which is where the flaws of this bridge really gets exposed. However, it is possible to make it work with lighter strings, hence this entire thread

rcaz

I don't see how you can call the bridge flawed when it was invented in a time when 9s and 10s weren't around to be tested with.

Doctor J

Actually it's very easy

You don't see the flaw in a bridge which freely moves backwards and forwards with nothing but the downward pressure of strings to keep it returning to a zero point? A bridge where the whole thing can be in an entirely diffrent position, thereby buggering the intonation, every time you change the strings? A bridge where that can happen anyway while you're playing if you strum the thing too hard which will also severely **** up the tuning?

Really? You don't see that as a flawed design?

Again, I reiterate again and again, the purpose of this thread is to offer a potential solution to the many, many, many people who have problems with the design. If you like the bridge and none of this applies to you, good for you, but lots of people are having problems with it and like to have stability in a bridge and the ability to play what they like on it without being forced to use strings which don't suit theor needs. This thread is for them. Start a Jazzmaster bridge appreciation society thread or something if it irks you so much. I think it's a **** design, that's just the way it is, move on.

rcaz

Doctor J wrote: »

You don't see the flaw in a bridge which freely moves backwards and forwards with nothing but the downward pressure of strings to keep it returning to a zero point? A bridge where the whole thing can be in an entirely diffrent position, thereby buggering the intonation, every time you change the strings? A bridge where that can happen anyway while you're playing if you strum the thing too hard which will also severely **** up the tuning?

None of this has ever been a problem. The bridge barely moves either way, it's not too hard to put the strings on, center the bridge, and then tune, center again, tune, etc. It's a zillion times easier to do than something like, do all the business required to change strings on a Floyd Rose bridge/nut system dealy. My guitar stays in tune for days, strings never jump, intonation never goes out, none of these problems that contribute to making it "****" ever happen to me.

I think putting a JM bridge on a Telecaster with a Bigsby is a **** idea, I think that's where your problem is. You're taking a Jazzmaster bridge, taking it completely out of context by putting it on a different guitar, and then calling it crap. Exactly the way, I dunno, rubgy players are rubbish at skateboarding. Doesn't make sense.

punchdrunk

well as the owner of two jags,and having played my brothers bigsby-fied tele for years i gotta agree with doc
between myself and my brother we've tried 9's 10's 11's 14's flatwounds,roundwound's,from using duck tape on the leg's to having guitar workshop make metal collars for the bridge everything!
stock the bridge is just a poor design

at the moment he's got graphtech saddles and i have tusq on one
it certainly helps but it's not ideal for example at the moment because of the tusq saddles everytime i use he trem it's breaking my ground connection :mad:

my next day off i'm going to do doc's setup and see if that works if not i'm buying a mastery

Doctor J

El Pr0n wrote: »

None of this has ever been a problem. The bridge barely moves either way, it's not too hard to put the strings on, center the bridge, and then tune, center again, tune, etc.

Tune, centre again, tune, centre again? How about just tune? Waaaaaay easier :pac: The bridge has over 1cm of travel back and forth, IIRC. I only needed to set it up that way once to know it isn't something I want do ever deal with ever again. Hence, the bridge is fixed in position. Next time it gets stringed up, the bridge and saddles will be in the same place the next time, and the next time and the next time, etc

El Pr0n wrote: »

It's a zillion times easier to do than something like, do all the business required to change strings on a Floyd Rose bridge/nut system dealy.

I disagree. With a Floyd, you set it up once. Then every time you tune it or restring it the saddles are in the same place. It stays intonated. The contact point of the bridge will always be in the same position relative to the nut. It's not much to ask for, but I like it that way.

El Pr0n wrote: »

My guitar stays in tune for days, strings never jump, intonation never goes out, none of these problems that contribute to making it "****" ever happen to me.

You're playing 12's. Besides, your low E seems to have popped out, it's miles away from the rest of the strings, a much bigger gap between it and the A string than the gap between any of the other strings. It's not even over the pole... perhaps the height adjuster has just loosened over time and dropped that side of the saddle out a bit... so...as I am getting tired of saying, this is a potential solution for people who want less crap and don't like big strings. What's the problem with that?

El Pr0n wrote: »

I think putting a JM bridge on a Telecaster with a Bigsby is a **** idea, I think that's where your problem is.

Actually, it works quite well... now :P

El Pr0n wrote: »

You're taking a Jazzmaster bridge, taking it completely out of context by putting it on a different guitar, and then calling it crap.

In fairness, it's a Jaguar bridge too, no? It's crap in the same way I'd call a vibrola crap. An old idea that just didn't quite cut the mustard but, hey, here we are, it's 2009 and some people like using 9's and 10's. What are we going to do? Shall we say it's retro and great and live with the rattles and ****e or shall we just try to remedy the situation?

El Pr0n wrote: »

Exactly the way, I dunno, rubgy players are rubbish at skateboarding. Doesn't make sense.

You're right, sentence doesn't make sense at all

Look man, I don't know why you're getting in a strop. I think it's a crap bridge, it doesn't mean you need to think it's a crap bridge. It's just my opinion. Get over it and play your guitar

rcaz

I'm not in a strop :rolleyes:

This is a discussion forum. I'm saying I don't agree with your opinion, and we've had a fairly interesting discussion because of it. That's the point of boards.ie, and every forum ever, right?

I've learned stuff from this thread, hope you have too, it was an interesting read. There doesn't have to be a 'winner'.

Doctor J

Winner?

Apologies then, if you took it the wrong way. The discussion seemed to be going nowhere but in circles, repeating itself. You like em, I don't, that's fine with me

rcaz

six6to8eight

Doc J,

Compare this to the second pic, you can see how much more clearance there is over the bridge baseplate. You might need to raise the pickup height to compensate, but it's a minor adjustment. You'll get used to the slighlty different feel in a couple of minutes.

Does this mean that the action changes? i.e. does this make it so that you can't get the action down as low as it was before? Is this what you mean by the "slightly different feel"?

Thanks for the great walkthrough!

Doctor J

Thanks! I'm glad someone has found it useful

By introducing the shim under the neck, it changes the angle of the neck against the body. Imagine if you had a straight line running along the neck and out across the body. When it leaves the factory on a lot of guitars, that line runs pretty much parallel with the body. By very slightly changing the angle of the neck, that line would gradually get higher off the body as you move towards the bridge and, by contrast, the nut would be below that line, so you need to raise the bridge in order to have the action high enough. Excuse the crappy drawing but it will expain it better. Top is standard, bottom shows the effect of shimming the neck. It's exaggerated to illustrate what happens.



In this case it has required the strings to be set maybe 5 or 6mm higher off the body than standard to accomodate the changed neck angle, that's the change in feel I was referring to. The strings aren't as high off the body as a Les Paul or the likes but it is higher off the body than it was. The action, however, is still very low, as low as you can get on a 7.5" radius with a whole tone bend that won't choke. To be honest, you'd only really notice if you'd played it setup the old way. If you just picked it up for the first time you wouldn't notice at all.