When do you think people will look back at our world and wonder?

wylo

Hi all Im new to this forum, just flicking around to a few different posts, im an atheist myself, however I don't like the word itself. I prefer the term non believer. Why? Because no matter how much I believe the word represents rationality and forward thinking I still think it still has too much of dark aura over it when you say it to people.
I havent believed in a God for about 7 or 8 years now but I dont preach either. I dont care if a president is saying 'so help me god', or if someone blesses themselves when going past a church.

Ive only actually started reading The God Delusion recently. While it makes for some good reading, Im finding that its being wasted on someone like myself who already agrees with everything in it. Dont get me wrong though its very well written.

Anyway my question to you is, when do you think the world will be in a position that they look back on our era as a strange world that believed in a god. Something along the lines of us looking back at people that thought the Earth was flat. People are getting more educated, more rational and more logical. I think its only a matter of time before atheism reaches a critical mass(no pun intented).

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.
When do you think it will happen?
50 years?
200 years?
1000 years
10,000 years?
Never?

sink

I am aware of no firm evidence such as empirical data of atheist numbers worldwide on which to make any kind of informed estimate. There is also some indication that 'true believers' have different brain patterns which might indicate that they are unable to shake a deep inward sense of god in which case it would be impossible to persuade them. Without further research it's impossible to say.

Fanny Cradock

Never! And I'm not just saying this as a Christian. There have been a number of false dawns with regards to a religious free utopia that I'm inclined to believe it an impossibility.

As for atheism reaching a critical mass - I would certainly agree that there is a huge interest in non-belief as well as a type of nebulous spirituality (more often then not metaphysical in its nature). However, by way of counterbalance, there has also been a corresponding growth in organised religion worldwide.

I'm quite convinced that this debate will run until the end of time. Religious convictions aside, though, I would be more worried about the likelihood of humanity seeing out the next 1,000 years.

Rb

First people have to confront their own mortality. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that because we evolved differently to animals, unlike animals after we die we go to happy land where all our friends and family are waiting so we can spend an eternity doing sfa.
I don't think, or at least I cannot forsee, the same people accepting the fact that we're probably going nowhere when we die and that in the grand scheme of things, our existence is pretty much useless.

pepsicokeacola

probably will think it was cool, you know like the way we look at people admiring the gods ala newgrange

To be honest, I can't see it ever happening. There will always be the religious, and there will always be the atheists. And, that's the way I like it. The world needs diversity, it'd be a boring place if we all believed in the same thing; and, there'd be no more interesting debates on Boards.:pac:

Dades

Science fiction usually goes one of two ways in it's reference to religious beliefs.

Almost always, the religions that thrive today have gone the same way as the religions that went before them, leaving behind societies that either exist peaceably, or find other things to fight about.

The other common theme is the formation of some new powerful pseudo cult, though I suspect this is more of a plot device, than an attempted prediction.

I don't think religion will ever disappear, although it may become more of a recreation than a cherished belief system. People just have a gap that needs to be filled. Furthermore any disappearance of religion will be completely uneven, with the most deprived parts of the world being last to let go.

philologos

People have suggested that in the future Christianity may shift further to the east, considering rapid evangelism taking place in ex-atheist regimes such as China, and quick adoption in other nations in the Far East such as in South Korea. However I don't think religion, or Christianity for that matter will be dissappearing at all considering that Christianity is expected to rise worldwide despite the current trend in the Western world.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

However I don't think religion, or Christianity for that matter will be dissappearing at all considering that Christianity is expected to rise worldwide despite the current trend in the Western world.

Sure it's only getting bigger in South East Asia, and there's a soul-rush going in in Africa, but we're talking 1000 years here!

Do you think in 1000 years the same rules will apply? With the exponential rate of technological growth surely the world will be unrecognizable.

philologos

I think Christianity will still be present in 1000 years time or 10,000 years time, that is if God hasn't willed the end times to happen by then. People probably said the same things about technology and the age we live in now, technology actually has gone into Christianity's favour and the favour of other faiths. Just look at how enormous the Christian websites are on the Internet for example, and explanations of scripture and so on.

Also the Economist in Nov 2007, suggested that a resurgence in faith in Europe was likely to occur in 2040. I don't know how they measured it, but it shows that even secular media are skeptical of the "new atheism" trend.

As for South East Asia and Africa, I would tend to disagree, it is rising in the Middle East too quite rapidly but due to the nature of Islamic law and apostasy this tends to be hidden very much so that people are more crypto-Muslims. India has also seen huge growth.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

technology actually has gone into Christianity's favour and the favour of other faiths. Just look at how enormous the Christian websites are on the Internet for example, and explanations of scripture and so on.

So you think people are more religious now than they were, say 50 years ago? I would have though not. Are religious people not just noisier than thay were, given the amount of ways we can now communicate? In the same way that although the world is on average a safer place, people think it's more dangerous given interminable coverage of everything bad.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for South East Asia and Africa, I would tend to disagree, it is rising in the Middle East too quite rapidly but due to the nature of Islamic law and apostasy this tends to be hidden very much so that people are more crypto-Muslims. India has also seen huge growth.

Sorry, which bits do you disagree with?

PDN

Nobody knows.

Sociologists like Bryan Wilson were for decades predicting a progressive and continual process of worldwide secularisation. Today that is recognised as a major academic blooper.

Religions, and particularly fundamentalist forms of religion, are showing strong growth internationally - particularly Islam and Christianity. It would be impossible for them to keep growing at such rates for 1000 years - that would mean more than 100% of the world's population had long ago been converted, so I think all predictions and bets are null and void.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

Religions, and particularly fundamentalist forms of religion, are showing strong growth internationally - particularly Islam and Christianity.

This is different from a growth in religion, however. Islam and Christianity are mostly just converting people from their indigenous beliefs.

So while the big religions may be recruiting, is religious belief growing, or are the increase of non-believers (in the West) not turning the curve downwards?

philologos

I think it's just a regional thing, and I'm pretty sure that it will subside like everything else. As Fanny Craddock says there have been periods of flux in atheism in the past. Allister McGrath's The Twilight of Atheism which is on my reading list is apparently very good at discussing how atheism has risen and fallen throughout history.

spacecoyote

Religion, as far as I'm concerned will never disappear. With all the recession talk at the moment even I've noticed that the car park of my local church has been more full of late. I will never be convinced that there is a Higher Power but there are so many people who are happy to accept God when things are looking bad and they need something to give them hope. I don't think this is a good thing, but I don't think its going to go away. And potentially into the future with improvements in technology and development of lower socio-economic countries I reckon there going to be a lot to be worried about in the next 1000 years!

Fanny Cradock

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it's just a regional thing, and I'm pretty sure that it will subside like everything else. As Fanny Craddock says there have been periods of flux in atheism in the past. Allister McGrath's The Twilight of Atheism which is on my reading list is apparently very good at discussing how atheism has risen and fallen throughout history.

It's a good book, but I do tend to disagree with his central thesis that Atheism is on the decline. I mentioned it on the recommended Christian books thread some time back.

Fanny Cradock

spacecoyote wrote: »

RWith all the recession talk at the moment even I've noticed that the car park of my local church has been more full of late.

Maybe they are trying to save on parking costs?

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

Are religious people not just noisier than thay were, given the amount of ways we can now communicate?

That's an interesting point. Most people probably wouldn't be aware of Creationism (sorry for using this as a specific example) if it werent for te internet.

PDN

Dades wrote: »

This is different from a growth in religion, however. Islam and Christianity are mostly just converting people from their indigenous beliefs.

So while the big religions may be recruiting, is religious belief growing, or are the increase of non-believers (in the West) not turning the curve downwards?

That is certainly part of it, with smaller animist religions losing their influence.

However, there are also large numbers of people formerly counted as atheists in China and the former Soviet Union who are now turning to Christianity & Islam. So we have a wonderful paradox where in places like Ireland young people are scandalising their parents by rejecting the religion that was thrust down their throats and embracing atheism which is seen as cool. Then in other parts of the world we have young people who are scandalising their parents by rejecting the atheism that was thrust down their throats and embracing Christianity and Islam which are seen as cool.

Humans are funny.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

Humans are funny.

And then some!

Regarding Russian or Chinese atheist numbers, are there really that many? I would have thought post-Stalin & co the population would revert back to it's old Orthodox ways like a country that had been holding it's breath.

And do the Chinese now converting to Christianity not have any deities or spirits (publicly or more likely privately)? i.e. Are they actually atheists, or just suppressed theists?

ChocolateSauce

There isn't any evidence to suggest that the current trend of rising atheism will continue until religion is gone. It has risen and fallen before, in Europe most recently in the 1700's.

Nonetheless, I am optimistic that within 100 years, the majority of people in the western world will describe themselves as atheist. I think the vast majority of eastern people will call themselves as such by then. The Muslim world, however, I think may take much, much longer. Latin America will go the way of the west, and Africa in perhaps 250 years, assuming it stops being a war-torn and famine-ravaged continent within the next 2-3 generations.

The US will probably also be very religious, and I believe someday may split between the secular coasts and the fundamentalist centre into two possibly hostile nations.
I think there will always be a religious minority, even 40,000 years from now. But this is all wild speculation! Fun, but of very little consequence.

Dades

Dades wrote: »

And do the Chinese now converting to Christianity not have any deities or spirits (publicly or more likely privately)? i.e. Are they actually atheists, or just suppressed theists?

That's a very good point. I'd tend to believe that they are actually suppressed theists, rather than atheists - like you say. It's impossible to "convert" someone to atheism using force.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Humans are funny.

Not at all -- there's a vast difference between what could be termed organic atheism and state-sponsored atheism, which we've gone into ad nauseam before. It's the difference between atheism as it shows up in Sweden, and atheism as it's expressed in North Korea.

The two are really quite different.

getz

PDN wrote: »

That is certainly part of it, with smaller animist religions losing their influence.

However, there are also large numbers of people formerly counted as atheists in China and the former Soviet Union who are now turning to Christianity & Islam. So we have a wonderful paradox where in places like Ireland young people are scandalising their parents by rejecting the religion that was thrust down their throats and embracing atheism which is seen as cool. Then in other parts of the world we have young people who are scandalising their parents by rejecting the atheism that was thrust down their throats and embracing Christianity and Islam which are seen as cool.

Humans are funny.

i think people will look back and say [;why did we allow religion to preach sexism] its now against the law

CerebralCortex

Dades wrote: »

And then some!

Regarding Russian or Chinese atheist numbers, are there really that many? I would have thought post-Stalin & co the population would revert back to it's old Orthodox ways like a country that had been holding it's breath.

And do the Chinese now converting to Christianity not have any deities or spirits (publicly or more likely privately)? i.e. Are they actually atheists, or just suppressed theists?

Most likely suppressed theists, a certain amount of seeing what you need to occurs on both sides when that subject comes up.

Húrin

wylo wrote: »

Anyway my question to you is, when do you think the world will be in a position that they look back on our era as a strange world that believed in a god. Something along the lines of us looking back at people that thought the Earth was flat. People are getting more educated, more rational and more logical. I think its only a matter of time before atheism reaches a critical mass(no pun intented).

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.
When do you think it will happen?
50 years?
200 years?
1000 years
10,000 years?
Never?

Your entire argument is teleological. Atheists don't get to use teleological arguments; sorry.

Húrin

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's a good book, but I do tend to disagree with his central thesis that Atheism is on the decline. I mentioned it on the recommended Christian books thread some time back.

Perhaps not, but he does well point out that postmodern culture has discredited the traditional atheist claim to "sit on the high seat at the table of religious discussion" - an attitude that can still be seen on these boards.

He doesn't seem to actually push the claim that atheism is on the decline that much. He seems more interested in showing that religion is not on the decline, and exposing the Eurocentrism of those who think it is.

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

It's impossible to "convert" someone to atheism using force.

Why the quotation marks? Conversion is exactly what a lot of atheists try to do.

Zamboni

wylo wrote: »

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.
When do you think it will happen?
50 years?
200 years?
1000 years
10,000 years?
Never?

Probably more chance of the singularity occuring in the next one hundred years and the machines taking over like in Terminator. I doubt they will be religious seeing as they're programmed for logic. :pac:

mickeydevine

wylo wrote: »

Hi all Im new to this forum, just flicking around to a few different posts, im an atheist myself, however I don't like the word itself. I prefer the term non believer. Why? Because no matter how much I believe the word represents rationality and forward thinking I still think it still has too much of dark aura over it when you say it to people.
I havent believed in a God for about 7 or 8 years now but I dont preach either. I dont care if a president is saying 'so help me god', or if someone blesses themselves when going past a church.

Ive only actually started reading The God Delusion recently. While it makes for some good reading, Im finding that its being wasted on someone like myself who already agrees with everything in it. Dont get me wrong though its very well written.

Anyway my question to you is, when do you think the world will be in a position that they look back on our era as a strange world that believed in a god. Something along the lines of us looking back at people that thought the Earth was flat. People are getting more educated, more rational and more logical. I think its only a matter of time before atheism reaches a critical mass(no pun intented).

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.
When do you think it will happen?
50 years?
200 years?
1000 years
10,000 years?
Never?

Hi Wylo,

50-200 years I reakon. We're moving so far forward that its gonna come to a point where religion will cease to be useful. I look on religion like a light switched off. People cant see whats going on but its easier to accept blackness than turning it on which could reveal something utterly frightening. Its a comfort blankey. Questions we dont know thwe answer to dont have to be considered, easier to say 'God did it'. I also dont like the term atheist. Some atheists can be as fanatical as religious types. Anyway, time travel is theoretically possible so as soon as that happens its over for religion. Unless we go back and see Jesus rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, I'll be first on the bandwagon.

Dades

mickeydevine wrote: »

I also dont like the term atheist. Some atheists can be as fanatical as religious types.

I don't like term "pilot". Some of them fly deliberately into buildings. :pac:

philologos

I think the term secular humanist would be more accurate for most people on this forum, their views don't just constitute a disbelief in God, but they try to attach things like "rational thought", "scientific enquiry", "logic", and other things that aren't inherently a part of atheism to it. One could agree that the term atheist is being expanded to include things that were never originally considered in the definition.

Húrin

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the term secular humanist would be more accurate for most people on this forum, their views don't just constitute a disbelief in God, but they try to attach things like "rational thought", "scientific enquiry", "logic", and other things that aren't inherently a part of atheism to it. One could agree that the term atheist is being expanded to include things that were never originally considered in the definition.

There is no choice, but to attach other beliefs to atheism. Nothing wrong with it either. Atheism is not a worldview. I call them naturalists - the idea that nothing exists other than that which can be discovered by the scientific method, because I see this as the central disagreement between atheists and theists.

wylo

Well after reading this I definitely wont be calling myself an atheist, mainly because I probably dont fully understand what it is. I am someone who simply believes there is no higher existance of any sort, I believe we have no priority over an ant , a dog , or a plant when we die.
As for my argument being teleological, could someone elaborate on that?
From Wiki:
A teleological school of thought is one that holds all things to be designed for or directed toward a final result, that there is an inherent purpose or final cause for all that exists.

I dont see how that compares to my argument.
I dont think we are destined towards a point in time in the world where religion is gone because its meant to happen, I just think it will happen because I believe all humans will eventually accept what we are.
I believe the likes of wealth, economy, peace etc will be the deciding factors, e.g. Africa could be the leading continent in commerce, health and education in 1000 years, and so they wont have a 'need' for religion any more. And so once every part of the world gets a taste of this I think religion will fade.

Húrin

wylo wrote: »

Well after reading this I definitely wont be calling myself an atheist, mainly because I probably dont fully understand what it is. I am someone who simply believes there is no higher existance of any sort, I believe we have no priority over an ant , a dog , or a plant when we die.
As for my argument being teleological, could someone elaborate on that?
From Wiki:
A teleological school of thought is one that holds all things to be designed for or directed toward a final result, that there is an inherent purpose or final cause for all that exists.

I dont see how that compares to my argument.
I dont think we are destined towards a point in time in the world where religion is gone because its meant to happen, I just think it will happen because I believe all humans will eventually accept what we are.

wylo wrote: »

... Because no matter how much I believe the word represents rationality and forward thinking I still think it still has too much of dark aura over it when you say it to people.
...
Anyway my question to you is, when do you think the world will be in a position that they look back on our era as a strange world that believed in a god. Something along the lines of us looking back at people that thought the Earth was flat. People are getting more educated, more rational and more logical. I think its only a matter of time before atheism reaches a critical mass(no pun intented).

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.

It seems that you have an idea that the expansion of atheism is progress. History shows that religious belief undergoes waning and revival, so you would need some higher purpose to explain why you think it is destined to disappear irreversibly. You think that we are destined to accept "what we are" (which you are certain is atheistic?). The principle of pursuing truth would suggest that this is the way it should be - a teleological statement.

There is also no evidence to suggest that people are becoming more logical with their education. Saints have been replaced by celebrities these days.

I believe the likes of wealth, economy, peace etc will be the deciding factors, e.g. Africa could be the leading continent in commerce, health and education in 1000 years, and so they wont have a 'need' for religion any more. And so once every part of the world gets a taste of this I think religion will fade.

I agree, material circumstances partially determine atheism, but that surely means that atheism is convenient, rather than meaning it is true.

Black Swan

wylo wrote: »

I strongly believe in about 1000 years time humans will look back at us and wonder what we must have been thinking.
When do you think it will happen?
50 years?
200 years?
1000 years
10,000 years?
Never?

In The Lessons of History by Will and Ariel Durant, they conclude:

A. "Does history support a belief in God? If by God we mean not the creative vitality of nature but a supreme being intelligent and benevolent, the answer must be a reluctant negative."

But, they also conclude...

B. "One lesson of history is that religion has many lives, and a habit of resurrection... because its mythology consoles and brightens the lives of the poor."

And with the coming of a huge global economic meltdown, does religion offer hope to those who have lost their retirement funds, their jobs, or the lack of an opportunity to earn a wage that would allow them upward social mobility?

Recorded history has evidenced various forms of religions, from polytheistic to monotheistic, and if history can be used to predict future trends, religion will continue into the future, be it 50 or 1000 years from now.

10,000 years from now? Will Homo Sapien Sapien still exist as a species? One prediction from biology that seems to hold about species is that someday they will be extinct.

asdasd

I just think it will happen because I believe all humans will eventually accept what we are.

You are projecting your rational views on everybody else. you would think by now that astrology would be dead as doornails, but it isnt. There are human needs to this. Also relgious people breed more.

I believe the likes of wealth, economy, peace etc will be the deciding factors, e.g. Africa could be the leading continent in commerce, health and education in 1000 years, and so they wont have a 'need' for religion any more. And so once every part of the world gets a taste of this I think religion will fade.

Africa could be, but so what? Africa is not the a fulcrum of religious fanatiscm.

Two places stand out - the US bible belt, and the Saudi Arabia. Neither are poor. Both are peaceful - ( the US is at war but it is not - relatively speaking a major war nor does it affect the homeland).

The view of the secular Westerner is - with regards to religion - always wrong. The entire French Left thought that Khomeni was a progressive, or that his radical Islam was a chimera for the "socialist" aspriations of the People - this is merely reading your own ****e into other peoples identities and beliefs.


anyway, the demographics are agin ya.

Húrin

asdasd wrote: »

Africa could be, but so what? Africa is not the a fulcrum of religious fanaticism.

Two places stand out - the US bible belt, and the Saudi Arabia. Neither are poor. Both are peaceful - ( the US is at war but it is not - relatively speaking a major war nor does it affect the homeland).

I would say that many parts of Africa (it's a very large place) are far more religious - genuinely faithful - than the US South and Arabia with their prosperity gospels.

Dades

wylo wrote: »

Well after reading this I definitely wont be calling myself an atheist, mainly because I probably dont fully understand what it is. I am someone who simply believes there is no higher existance of any sort.

The negative perceptions and misnomers that come with the term "atheist" don't change the fact that your beliefs make you one!

Don't sweat it!

sionnach

wylo wrote: »

I am someone who simply believes there is no higher existance of any sort

A rose by any other name...

Black Swan

asdasd wrote: »

Two places stand out - the US bible belt, and the Saudi Arabia. Neither are poor. Both are peaceful - ( the US is at war but it is not - relatively speaking a major war nor does it affect the homeland).

The US Bible Belt is not poor? When I toured the deep South I found extraordinary poverty, as well as in the Appalachian Mountains, both strongholds of the US Bible Belt. A majority of these people are without health insurance, and many are either unemployed or underemployed. I also sensed the presence, and saw mention in the news of ultra-violent poor White groups like the KKK in these same areas, not exactly paragons of peacefulness?

The Bible Belt has also been called the Poverty Belt. Source: https://www.amstat.org/sections/srms/Proceedings/y2004/files/Jsm2004-000910.pdf

On a larger scale, to say that the US is "peaceful" is an opinion that many would disagree with, especially those in Iraq or Afghanistan where US wars have been ongoing for years with thousands of innocent men, women, and children reported as collateral damage. I would think Americans warlike after their War for Independence, British-American War (or whatever it was called), Civil War, Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Desert Storm (Iraq I War), Afghan War, and Iraq II War, the last 7 of these wars occurring in the past century.

asdasd wrote: »

anyway, the demographics are agin ya.

“The World Bank estimates that in 1998, more than one billion people lived on less than one dollar per day. When we exclude China from the estimates, we see that there were almost 106 million more very poor people in the world in 1998 than there were a decade earlier. The world's total population is projected to increase by another three billion people by the middle of this century, with almost all of this growth occurring in the poorest countries.”
Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2804102.html

Is there a positive relationship between poverty and religious beliefs? If so, then as world population growth and poverty increases, religious membership will increase?