Why do we allow our Politicians too be paid so much

Terra

Ireland is a relatively small country compared too the likes of the US And even Great Britain

But why is the Taoiseach paid more then other leaders?

He gets more then the president of the United States.

I simply don't have enough confidence in our current Taoiseach too justify that type of salary.


For such a small country I think we pay our leaders far too much and also let them get away with far too much.

Does anyone believe there salaries are justified?

Does anyone think that something needs too change with Irish Politics just as it seems too be changing with US Politics?

Deedsie

Terra wrote: »

Ireland is a relatively small country compared too the likes of the US And even Great Britain

But why is the Taoiseach paid more then other leaders?

He gets more then the president of the United States.

I simply don't have enough confidence in our current Taoiseach too justify that type of salary.


For such a small country I think we pay our leaders far too much and also let them get away with far too much.

Does anyone believe there salaries are justified?

Does anyone think that something needs too change with Irish Politics just as it seems too be changing with US Politics?

Yes, I completely agree with you. Its ridiculous how much they are paid. The EU brings us in line with other countries in things like infrastructure, environmental law, why cant they make EU recommendations/directives on the salary of EU State leaders. Ill vote lisbon if they do.

Mena

Deedsie wrote: »

Yes, I completely agree with you. Its ridiculous how much they are paid. The EU brings us in line with other countries in things like infrastructure, environmental law, why cant they make EU recommendations/directives on the salary of EU State leaders. Ill vote lisbon if they do.

Perhaps you should vote, either yes or no, for Lisbon, based upon the Lisbon treaty, and not on some totally unrelated matter? Just a thought.

As to the Op's question, I have no idea what they base their salaries on, but they should surely be performance based...

Deedsie

Mena wrote: »

Perhaps you should vote, either yes or no, for Lisbon, based upon the Lisbon treaty, and not on some totally unrelated matter? Just a thought.

As to the Op's question, I have no idea what they base their salaries on, but they should surely be performance based...

Perhaps ill vote whatever way I want based on whatever reason I want. The performance of EU directives and legislation to the benefit of Ireland and Irish people would be the reason ill be deciding on if i want Lisbon or i dont. My choice. Do with your vote what you will.

CJhaughey

It is not just the amount of pay they get it is also the fact that there is two houses and far too many in the first place.
The senate need to be abolished, there is no reason for 80 odd senators and associated hangers on to be paid handsomely for very little.
New Zealand which has a similar size population has only one house and they seem to have a fairly well functioning democracy.

jmayo

Deedsie wrote: »

Yes, I completely agree with you. Its ridiculous how much they are paid. The EU brings us in line with other countries in things like infrastructure, environmental law, why cant they make EU recommendations/directives on the salary of EU State leaders. Ill vote lisbon if they do.

The EU cannot bring in a directive on something like that since the standard of living is so different between all the states, the leader in Hungary or Romania may own get 50,000 buit that is way above their average industrial wage.
There would be hell to pay if the EU started dictating maximum salaries of anyone.

Linking this to Lisbon is ridiculous and has nothing to do with EU, but it has a lot to do with our political parties and our politicans :mad:
Her is a crazy idea, why not vote out the parties and politicans that brought in all these salary hikes over the last few years i.e. vote against the FF candidates in the next general election.
That way all parties know they can't keep giving themselves fat salaries and still be voted in the next time.
Tell them this before the election, you know tell the eejits that come to your door.

Terra wrote: »

Ireland is a relatively small country compared too the likes of the US And even Great Britain

But why is the Taoiseach paid more then other leaders?

He gets more then the president of the United States.

I simply don't have enough confidence in our current Taoiseach too justify that type of salary.

For such a small country I think we pay our leaders far too much and also let them get away with far too much.

Does anyone believe there salaries are justified?

Does anyone think that something needs too change with Irish Politics just as it seems too be changing with US Politics?

He has such a big salary because Irish voters voted him and his predecessor back into power, even though they had given themselves high wage hikes down the years preceeding the election.
Nobody complained much and almost everyone was happy feeding form the trough of plenty.

If the politicans think, or should I say rather know, they can get away with treating voters like shi** then they damm well will :rolleyes:
See Beaker Flynn for good example of this.

Deedsie wrote: »

Perhaps ill vote whatever way I want based on whatever reason I want. The performance of EU directives and legislation to the benefit of Ireland and Irish people would be the reason ill be deciding on if i want Lisbon or i dont. My choice. Do with your vote what you will.

Ah yes, perhaps you should vote for or against Lisbon based on whether you got fine weather during your last trip to Spain :rolleyes:

Colonel Sanders

wasn't the reason given for the massive rises about 2 years ago (which were not taken in the end) the fact that they were independantly assessed?

Strange that many public sector bodies have been independantly assessed as overpaid but there has never been a move to cut their pay.

fergalr

The salary of our taoiseach might be higher than a lot of other countries, but the perks are often less.

Frankly though, 300k isn't a huge amount of money for running the country. Anyone running a big bank would probably be on more than that, following from the idea that you have to pay lots to get top leadership.
I'm not sure if I fully agree with that, but it makes at least some sense.


As a taxpayer, right now, if doubling the salary would get top leadership, I'd be totally in favour of it.

speedboatchase

Because Irish people are apathetic to Irish politics because they see it as too corrupt, just vote for their parents party or don't feel their vote will make any real difference when our political system means you nearly always end up with a diluted multi-party system. First past the post and the small parties will die, leaving parties to adopt new ideas to stand out and reach a new electorate, i.e disaffected youths. It's an absolute disgrace the Taoiseach gets paid that much but not too surprising from us

fergalr

speedboatchase wrote: »

Because Irish people are apathetic to Irish politics because they see it as too corrupt, just vote for their parents party or don't feel their vote will make any real difference when our political system means you nearly always end up with a diluted multi-party system. First past the post and the small parties will die, leaving parties to adopt new ideas to stand out and reach a new electorate, i.e disaffected youths. It's an absolute disgrace the Taoiseach gets paid that much but not too surprising from us

I haven't heard anyone argue for first past the post in this way before, but don't know much about politics.
Wouldn't the resulting two party system be more likely to give two parties very similarly aligned, just one 'slightly more right' and the other 'slightly more left'?

speedboatchase

Probably but that would be generations away but I think it would quickly allow new ideas to flourish and "controversial" ideas and rulings brought to the forefront of public consciousness rather than slipping measures past us knowing full well their won't be uproar. I can't see anything good the Irish govt have done for us in the last few years, all I've seen is complete mismanagement leading to one of the earliest recessions in Europe and the only social changes are rights being taken away from us (buying alcohol, nightclub opening hours)

IRLConor

fergalr wrote: »

As a taxpayer, right now, if doubling the salary would get top leadership, I'd be totally in favour of it.

If it were a normal, salaried job I'd be all for this approach, but given that the selection process is not a normal one I don't think it would be appropriate.

The reason you need high salaries for CEOs of big companies is that skilled business leaders usually have plenty of offers open to them and you need to bribe them to pick you. In other words, N candidates, M jobs (N < M). Politicians have it the other way aroung. N candidates, M jobs (N >> M).

One of the major problems with paying politicians a lot of money is that it vastly increases their chances of getting re-elected. It has an effect of concentrating power among those who have already been elected.

deadhead13

fergalr wrote: »

The salary of our taoiseach might be higher than a lot of other countries, but the perks are often less.

Frankly though, 300k isn't a huge amount of money for running the country. Anyone running a big bank would probably be on more than that, following from the idea that you have to pay lots to get top leadership.
I'm not sure if I fully agree with that, but it makes at least some sense.

I don't think Chief executives of banks can be said to have earn their huge salaries. Not the best of comparisons in the current climate.

10 times the average industrial wage is far to much for Cowen. The per capita cost to the Irish taxpayer compared to the USA is obscence

The last person to try that crap about lack of perks was Bertie and it was treated with the contempt it deserves.

fergalr

IRLConor wrote: »

If it were a normal, salaried job I'd be all for this approach, but given that the selection process is not a normal one I don't think it would be appropriate.

The reason you need high salaries for CEOs of big companies is that skilled business leaders usually have plenty of offers open to them and you need to bribe them to pick you. In other words, N candidates, M jobs (N < M). Politicians have it the other way aroung. N candidates, M jobs (N >> M).

I'd have said that a major reason companies pay the people at the top lots, is in order to make those lower down the ladder want to work extra hard to climb the ladder. By increasing the reward, you increase competition for the reward, and then, hopefully, you get a wider range of better candidates to choose from.

I know that it doesn't always work out like that in practice.

I'm more saying, that considering our countries top management can do vast harm or good to the economy, of the order of billions of euro, if giving them a bit more money means we get slightly better leadership, then I'm for it.

IRLConor wrote: »

One of the major problems with paying politicians a lot of money is that it vastly increases their chances of getting re-elected. It has an effect of concentrating power among those who have already been elected.

This is a good point. At the same time, the mere fact that a politician is in power greatly increases their chance of getting re-elected anyway, in terms of increasing donations to their political party etc.

I'd also say that with higher salaries, politicians are less ripe for corruption, but I guess this is arguable too.

Terra

I believe that one of the biggest wastage in Ireland is apart from water is the wastage of money.

I think of it like running water through a pipe that has a big hole in the middle causing half of it too go too waste.

Almost every instution in Ireland needs too be modernised and run far more efficiently.

Alot of the people in power are Inteligent but are mostly after there own self serving interests.

What we need is Inteligent but Just leaders who respect all people and work for the people rather then for there own goals and gains at the expense of people.

I think most irish people have become so accustomed too our leaders and the wealthy that the can see no alternative.... we can't change anything cause we are afraid that we will just recieve a lot of retribution for it.

I think there is a need for a new start in Ireland, like in America right now with Obama.....there needs to be some fresh talent that will not just take everyone for a ride.

But where and how can we get this....or is there a better alternative?

fergalr

deadhead13 wrote: »

I don't think Chief executives of banks can be said to have earn their huge salaries. Not the best of comparisons in the current climate.

I wasn't trying to make the argument that CEOs, or politicians, earned their salaries. I was trying to make the argument that sometimes bigger salaries attract brighter candidates (at least, that seems to be a fairly widely held idea).
I'm not arguing that our current leaders are earning their salary, either.
I just said that given they have such a huge impact on our economy, then, if (and I accept this is arguable) if having a high salary over a long time increases the leadership quality, then I'm all for it. Right now, when our government is dealing with billions of euro in bank nationalisations, and when a lot of the electorate seem to be rather dubious of their competence, then I think a lot of people would agree that if a higher salary got more competent leadership, it'd be well worth it.

deadhead13 wrote: »

10 times the average industrial wage is far to much for Cowen. The per capita cost to the Irish taxpayer compared to the USA is obscence

The last person to try that crap about lack of perks was Bertie and it was treated with the contempt it deserves.

Would you mind explaining to me how it is crap?
I mean, if you are going to compare the salary of the Taoiseach to the President of the USA, then surely the fact that President lives in the white house, gets camp david, etc is relevant? Also, the President will get a lot more from speaking engagements etc and all the other ex-President perks than an ex-Taoiseach will.
I'm not saying it equates, but really, it's worth taking into account.

I'm not saying I think Cohen deserves what he gets paid.
I'm saying that it makes some sense to me to pay the countries management well.
The people who decide to enter politics in America or the UK to have a shot at the top of it may well be weighing up the same other careers as the people in Ireland that do, so we have to pay comparable amounts.


Anyway, it's a lot more meaningful than where you are going, talking about earning per capita. If we were to pay the Taoiseach the same per capita as the UK pays their Prime Minister he'd be on 8grand a year. Lets not even talk about what we'd pay our TDs. Per capita is just a silly way of thinking about these things, if someone were to suggest to any Irish worker that their wage should be lower just because the country had less people... well, it wouldn't fly.

hedgeh0g

Is our government paid the highest in the world?
If so our politicians really over value themselves.

nesf

Deedsie wrote: »

Perhaps ill vote whatever way I want based on whatever reason I want.

And yet people ask why there are so many unskilled, uninspiring idiots in power in democracies across the world.

deadhead13

Fergalr, we already have the highest paid politicians in the OECD. And this has been the case pretty much since the inception of the state. By your logic we should also already have these high calibre leaders, but we don't.

Even factoring in the benifit of an official residence, the taoiseach of Ireland should not be paid more then the president of American. Its just not justifiable. There are security considerations in the US that simply don't apply here. Not to mention the fact that, Steward's lodge has been renovated at consideralbe cost for the use of the taoiseach and has laid idle since 2000.

There has to be a degree of civic duty in political life, it can't just be about money.

fergalr

deadhead13 wrote: »

Fergalr, we already have the highest paid politicians in the OECD. And this has been the case pretty much since the inception of the state. By your logic we should also already have these high calibre leaders, but we don't.

If I was saying that remuneration was the sole determining factor of leadership quality, then yes, what you just said would make sense.

But I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that if a high salary is a factor that encourages good leaders, and I think it might be, then I'll happily pay it.

Obviously, the electorate also has to consider carefully and vote well, the state has to be in healthy situation, good education, and all loads of other important factors, before you can get good leadership.


I'm going to play devils advocate here for a moment:

I think this thread is basically:
"Omg, our politicians are crap, and they get paid loads, they don't deserve loads because they are crap, they shouldn't get paid so much!"

If our politicians are crap, it's our own fault. We should elect better ones and put more work into our democracy.

We shouldn't dock the salaries of the politicians because they are crap, we should give good salaries to good leaders who earn it, because we elect leaders who deserve the good money we pay them.

The idea that we dock the salaries of our politicians because they haven't performed well is ridiculous.
As an electorate it's us that's not doing our job if our politicians are rubbish. Perhaps our salary should be docked?
</d.a.>

deadhead13 wrote: »

Even factoring in the benifit of an official residence, the taoiseach of Ireland should not be paid more then the president of American.

Why not?

deadhead13 wrote: »

Its just not justifiable.

To me, if it increases the chance of getting good leaders that save billions, it's perfectly justifiable. I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this value judgment.

deadhead13 wrote: »

There are security considerations in the US that simply don't apply here. Not to mention the fact that, Steward's lodge has been renovated at considerable cost for the use of the taoiseach and has laid idle since 2000.

There has to be a degree of civic duty in political life, it can't just be about money.

Indeed there does. So?

I'm not saying it should just be about the money. But we do have a somewhat capitalistic market economy here, and so money will be a factor.

Look at it from the other extreme; imagine, as a thought experiment, all the elected leaders only got minimum wage, and no other perks. It'd be all about civic duty, then.
Do you think this would affect the sort of government we'd get? If so, in what way?

deadhead13

I agree, we get the politicians we deserve. But we are also limited by the calibre of people who put themselves forward. You maintain high salaries would attract better candidates. I just don't think this would happen. We would have the same people but be paying them more.

fergalr

deadhead13 wrote: »

I agree, we get the politicians we deserve. But we are also limited by the calibre of people who put themselves forward. You maintain high salaries would attract better candidates. I just don't think this would happen. We would have the same people but be paying them more.

I'd hope that high salaries would attract better candidates than if the salaries were lower.
It may not be the case.
But seeing as in society in general it seems to work like that, and in the absence of conflicting evidence, and seeing as how we very much need good leadership in this country, I'd be hesitant to focus on lowering the Taoiseachs salary at the moment. I certainly wouldn't be doing it just out of dissatisfaction with the current leadership.

If you are right, and if we could get the same calibre of people more cheaply, then as a taxpayer, I'd agree with reducing them as a money saving measure.

deadhead13

Thing is, we will never know, because if they tried to implement this theory there would be an insurrection.

gurramok

fergalr wrote: »

I'd hope that high salaries would attract better candidates than if the salaries were lower.
It may not be the case.
But seeing as in society in general it seems to work like that, and in the absence of conflicting evidence, and seeing as how we very much need good leadership in this country, I'd be hesitant to focus on lowering the Taoiseachs salary at the moment. I certainly wouldn't be doing it just out of dissatisfaction with the current leadership.

If you are right, and if we could get the same calibre of people more cheaply, then as a taxpayer, I'd agree with reducing them as a money saving measure.

As we know Clowen is the highest paid leader in the EU and probably among the highest in the world at 310k(before recent commitment of a 10% paycut in budget), is better paid even after the 10% paycut than the leaders of the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Australia, Canada etc..(all rich 1st world countries)

What is your minimum salary requirement in order that the best candidate is selected for the job?

inforfun

It is not just irish politicians that are useless.
For me they are people who don't have the talent to do great in companies in the private sector. Or they have ideas/thoughts that they want to implement on a worldwide scale while those ideas are for the most unrealistic.

So i am in no way defending politicians but.....
Isn't it true that basically everybody in this country is earning more with their job than they would earn in other countries doing the same job they are doing now?
I would include people on the dole as well.

Sleipnir

Aside from how much their salaries are, I find it completely ridiculous that they get such large expenses, and they are unvouched for. I mean how can you give someone €40,000 in expenses and not confirm that the expenses were business related? Not even bother to check?
Just
"here, I'm owed €40,000 for stuff I've bought"
"On what?"
"Lots of stuff, can't remember"
"Fair enough, here's a cheque for €40,000"

What kind of democracy is that?

I remember reading an article in "Private Eye" a couple of years ago where the head of a local council in the U.K. put a new rule in place which meant that only expenses with a valid receipt could be claimed.
Their expenses claims dropped by something like 80%.

Are our politicians any more honest?

Terra

Sleipnir wrote: »

Aside from how much their salaries are, I find it completely ridiculous that they get such large expenses, and they are unvouched for. I mean how can you give someone €40,000 in expenses and not confirm that the expenses were business related? Not even bother to check?
Just
"here, I'm owed €40,000 for stuff I've bought"
"On what?"
"Lots of stuff, can't remember"
"Fair enough, here's a cheque for €40,000"

What kind of democracy is that?

I remember reading an article in "Private Eye" a couple of years ago where the head of a local council in the U.K. put a new rule in place which meant that only expenses with a valid receipt could be claimed.
Their expenses claims dropped by something like 80%.

Are our politicians any more honest?

In the company I work for if you have too claim expenses it can only be for company related business and you have too prove it with a scanned receipt.

I don't understand why there is so much unaccountability in the public sector when it comes too expenses.

Its a crime how much he can get away with. They get paid so much and still get everything for free through unnecessary expenses.

iMax

Lets make them clock in & out & pay them an hourly rate... See how long the holidays are then

fergalr

gurramok wrote: »

As we know Clowen is the highest paid leader in the EU and probably among the highest in the world at 310k(before recent commitment of a 10% paycut in budget), is better paid even after the 10% paycut than the leaders of the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Australia, Canada etc..(all rich 1st world countries)

What is your minimum salary requirement in order that the best candidate is selected for the job?

As I've pointed out a few times, no minimum salary requirement means the best candidate gets selected. There's also an election and other factors like that.
I'm not certain whether the quality of candidates would substantially change, over a long period, if the salary was 100k as opposed to 300k. In general though, trends in other areas of our society would lead me to believe it would. It's certainly the perceived wisdom in many organisations within our society.

On the off chance it does have an ongoing effect, considering the minuscule impact of the Taoiseachs salary on the budget of the country he manages, I'd be reluctant to reduce the salary.

jim o doom

Allow? we don't allow anything, because we don't have a say in it. A bunch of retards vote the same party in constantly, regardless of what that party does. Once that party is in, they do what they want with no reference to us. It's been said before & I'll just go and repeat it. We get the government we deserve.

grahamo

Why do we allow our Politicians too be paid so much?
Because we are all way too apathetic when it comes to politics in this Banana Republic.
Do you think Politicians in other countries could get away with the kind of stuff that goes on in the dail? Not a chance. In most other countries corrupt politicians are jailed, in some countries even worse.
So many people on this island would still vote FF even if they were led by Robert Mugabwe.
P.S. After the govt. have negotiated pay cuts for all, what's the betting they then award themselves that deferred pay rise from last year?