Motorcyclists in the cycling lanes

buffalo

Perhaps this is more suited to the cycling forum, but I only ever encounter it on my commute.

I was cycling in this morning along Clanbrassil St-Patrick St in Dublin, and two motorcyclists turned off Cork St and headed into town, same way as me. The two lanes were bumper to bumper, so they drove up the cycle lane ahead of me. At the speed they go at in the cycle lane (because their bikes are much bulkier and don't fit as easily) makes cyclists have to slow down.

I pulled alongside the two of them at next red lights and pointed at the cycle lane and asked them if they knew what it was. One guy smirked from behind his helmet, and the other guy was polite enough to respond. I think he was making a plea that we (cyclists and motorcyclists) were all in this together, trying to beat traffic, and then he pointed at the red light, and asked me if I knew what that was. I said yes, he then accused (and it's a bit of a strong word, but I did feel offended) me of breaking every other red light. :mad:

This is something which I do not do, and pride myself on that. I said this to him, and he point blank called me a liar. Despite the fact that I was stopped at a red light at the time.

Next time I think I'll just pull up behind them, take a note of their plates and report them.

paulm17781

If only we had some agency that would enforce laws... :mad:

Sean9015

buffalo wrote: »

Perhaps this is more suited to the cycling forum, but I only ever encounter it on my commute.

I was cycling in this morning along Clanbrassil St-Patrick St in Dublin, and two motorcyclists turned off Cork St and headed into town, same way as me. The two lanes were bumper to bumper, so they drove up the cycle lane ahead of me. At the speed they go at in the cycle lane (because their bikes are much bulkier and don't fit as easily) makes cyclists have to slow down.

I pulled alongside the two of them at next red lights and pointed at the cycle lane and asked them if they knew what it was. One guy smirked from behind his helmet, and the other guy was polite enough to respond. I think he was making a plea that we (cyclists and motorcyclists) were all in this together, trying to beat traffic, and then he pointed at the red light, and asked me if I knew what that was. I said yes, he then accused (and it's a bit of a strong word, but I did feel offended) me of breaking every other red light. :mad:

This is something which I do not do, and pride myself on that. I said this to him, and he point blank called me a liar. Despite the fact that I was stopped at a red light at the time.

Next time I think I'll just pull up behind them, take a note of their plates and report them.

Having been knocked off my bike by a motorbike swerving into the bus lane on the quays to avoid a traffic queue (needless to say, he didn't stop), I agree 100%. I also obey traffic rules (eg red lights), which is more than some scooter riders (and cyclists) do - eg the exit from Heuston station.

As Paul says, enforcement is the issue - and when Garda motorbikes also use the bus lanes (withoout blues and twos) I fear there is not much hope of that.....

jim o doom

*prepares for an onslaught of angry cyclist replies*
I use the bicycle lanes from time to time, but I've never slowed a cyclist down in my life (to my knowledge) & if there's a cyclist slower than me, in front of me, I just bide my time (because it's the cycling lane), nobody get's stuck so I don't see a problem, if I'd I thought I was in anyones way I'd just move into the traffic til they passed..

In relation to the bikers response of you breaking red lights; clearly he was wrong, but as you have probably seen (I have anyway) 90% of cyclists tend to ignore red lights. You basically confronted him, when you "confront" someone, especially a stranger, you are in a "confrontation", so if you expect politeness, especially during a stressful town commute, you have your head in the clouds - everyone is annoyed at that time of the morning in traffic. I imagine in that mood the guy just pulled whatever he could think of out of his @rse to justify whay he was doing.. (not right admittedly but it's the only thing I see happening if people are confronted in traffic)

getting in and out of town for everyone (cars, bikes, bicycles, whatever) is very stressful & sure it's annoying if you are getting slowed down, but you're only going to annoy yourself being petty & ringing the gards.. because, well I've called them about honestly dangrous drivers on the roads & to my knowldge; nothing was ever done..

do you really think they're going to be following up your calls (and a call you will have to make regularily beacause a lot of bikers use the cycle lanes from what I have noticed) in relation to the cycle lanes? unlikely..

Paparazzo

Sean9015 wrote: »

Having been knocked off my bike by a motorbike swerving into the bus lane on the quays to avoid a traffic queue (needless to say, he didn't stop), I agree 100%. I also obey traffic rules (eg red lights), which is more than some scooter riders (and cyclists) do - eg the exit from Heuston station.

As Paul says, enforcement is the issue - and when Garda motorbikes also use the bus lanes (withoout blues and twos) I fear there is not much hope of that.....

The op is talking about cycle lanes, not bus lanes.
I use cycle lanes, but same as jim, never slowed anyone down in one. I also cycle about 50% of the time. Motorcycles slowing me down in the cycle lane is the least of my problems on my commute

paulm17781

jim o doom wrote: »

do you really think they're going to be following up your calls (and a call you will have to make regularily beacause a lot of bikers use the cycle lanes from what I have noticed) in relation to the cycle lanes? unlikely..

Nope, I don't think they're going to follow up on calls. I've seen guards (lights off) breaking rules of the road, on the phone, ignoring rules broken in front etc. That's my point, if they actually enforced the rules, our roads would be a lot safer.

Del2005

buffalo wrote: »

Perhaps this is more suited to the cycling forum, but I only ever encounter it on my commute.

I was cycling in this morning along Clanbrassil St-Patrick St in Dublin, and two motorcyclists turned off Cork St and headed into town, same way as me. The two lanes were bumper to bumper, so they drove up the cycle lane ahead of me. At the speed they go at in the cycle lane (because their bikes are much bulkier and don't fit as easily) makes cyclists have to slow down.

Does this cycle lane have a continous or broken line? How do motorbikes, even if not supposed to be there, make bicylces slow down? Are they not going faster then the bikes? Or are they forcing their way past, which is a big no no?

I pulled alongside the two of them at next red lights and pointed at the cycle lane and asked them if they knew what it was. One guy smirked from behind his helmet, and the other guy was polite enough to respond. I think he was making a plea that we (cyclists and motorcyclists) were all in this together, trying to beat traffic, and then he pointed at the red light, and asked me if I knew what that was. I said yes, he then accused (and it's a bit of a strong word, but I did feel offended) me of breaking every other red light. :mad:

This is something which I do not do, and pride myself on that. I said this to him, and he point blank called me a liar. Despite the fact that I was stopped at a red light at the time.

Next time I think I'll just pull up behind them, take a note of their plates and report them.

As others have pointed out, you may not break red lights, but the majority of bicycles do. Just like the majority of cars, trucks, buses and motorbikes break some law when on the road. I'm also nearly sure that you have broken a law at some stage when cycling. Your not going to get anywhere complaining and only going to get stressed out if you do.

If the motorcyclists are driving dangerously or aggressively then report them. But would you rather have a few motorbikes ahead of you at the lights, where you can see them, blocking you from getting to the line? Or have god knows how many behind you to come flying past as soon as the lights go green?

Del2005

paulm17781 wrote: »

Nope, I don't think they're going to follow up on calls. I've seen guards (lights off) breaking rules of the road, on the phone, ignoring rules broken in front etc. That's my point, if they actually enforced the rules, our roads would be a lot safer.

The Gardai in the course of their duty are exempt from the rules of the road. So the aren't breaking any laws, just setting a very bad example.

And yes they should enforce all the laws but that is never going to happen.

bazzer

buffalo wrote: »

The two lanes were bumper to bumper, so they drove up the cycle lane ahead of me.

Don't want to be smart, but is that cycle lane bounded off the main traffic lane by a broken white line, or a continuous one? If broken, then the motorcyclists have every right to use it, as it implies a shared piece of roadway. If continuous, then they were using it illegally.

weehamster

bazzer wrote: »

If broken, then the motorcyclists have every right to use it, as it implies a shared piece of roadway. If continuous, then they were using it illegally.

This is a very important point to note.
All this is classic Irish B.S. politics, where the council will pat itself on the back saying, look at us, aren't we just great. Look at all of the 'millions' of kilometres of cycles lanes we have created for you, the citizens of Dublin. :cool:

And so all this basically means nearly all cycles lanes in Dublin, aren't really cycle lanes at all as other traffic can use them too, which defeats the purpose of why a cycle lane is needed in the first place.

So, just to sum it all up, Dublin actually has very few cycles lanes

penexpers

Del2005 wrote: »

Are they not going faster then the bikes? Or are they forcing their way past, which is a big no no?

Often, motorbikes are too big to squeeze into the gap between the line of traffic and the kerb, so they have to slow down in the cycle lane until the traffic speeds up again.

Paparazzo

penexpers wrote: »

Often, motorbikes are too big to squeeze into the gap between the line of traffic and the kerb, so they have to slow down in the cycle lane until the traffic speeds up again.

Sounds like the car blocking the motorcycle is the problem:D

markpb

I'm going to be a little contrary and say that I have no problem with motorcyclists using the cycle lanes. It doesn't happen much on my commute (usually just around Drumcondra) but they're generally very polite and almost always wait for cyclists to go ahead of them. A few times I've ended up behind them at the lights and they always move over to let me take my position in the box. Yes, it's against the law but the only time it happens is when traffic has stopped and, in that situation, cycle as slowly as they drive because I don't want to be hit by a door.

jim o doom

markpb wrote: »

I'm going to be a little contrary and say that I have no problem with motorcyclists using the cycle lanes. It doesn't happen much on my commute (usually just around Drumcondra) but they're generally very polite and almost always wait for cyclists to go ahead of them. A few times I've ended up behind them at the lights and they always move over to let me take my position in the box. Yes, it's against the law but the only time it happens is when traffic has stopped and, in that situation, cycle as slowly as they drive because I don't want to be hit by a door.

That's what I like to hear; I mean I know there's the cycle community & the biker communnity & ther scooters as well; but ultimately we are all in danger on the roads & have little or no protection whatsoever from cars. We should be aware of each other & friendly with each other and try not to be cnuts to each other;

because most of the the danger on the road is four wheeled vehicles - not all of them mind, but when it comes down to it we just don't have any safety (all of us) and being petty is just pointless..

sure there's the odd dangerous biker (maybe more than odd) or the odd "doesn't look over should even for a second before moving into traffic" suicide cyclist (ok maybe more than odd here) - but it's all a big game of avoid ending up under a car while getting from a to b..

KevR

Have seen someone driving a moped on a cycle path (not a cycle lane, a cycle path which is raised up off the road like a footpath) in Galway a few times. It's probably even worse driving a moped on a cycle path than a cycle lane.

Anyway they Galway Traffic Corps have better things to be doing than pulling people like this over. They can make more money for the government by hiding in bushes doing sly speed traps on the best/safest roads in the city. :mad: :rolleyes:

buffalo

Del2005 wrote: »

Does this cycle lane have a continous or broken line? How do motorbikes, even if not supposed to be there, make bicylces slow down? Are they not going faster then the bikes? Or are they forcing their way past, which is a big no no?

I'm pretty certain, and I'm open to correction, that it's a mandatory cycle lane for most of the Clanbrassil-Patrick St stretch.

jim o doom wrote: »

*prepares for an onslaught of angry cyclist replies*
I use the bicycle lanes from time to time, but I've never slowed a cyclist down in my life (to my knowledge) & if there's a cyclist slower than me, in front of me, I just bide my time (because it's the cycling lane), nobody get's stuck so I don't see a problem, if I'd I thought I was in anyones way I'd just move into the traffic til they passed..

Paparazzo wrote: »

I use cycle lanes, but same as jim, never slowed anyone down in one. I also cycle about 50% of the time. Motorcycles slowing me down in the cycle lane is the least of my problems on my commute

I don't want to come across as smart here, but are you really checking your rear view if you're coming down the inside of traffic? I know I'm constantly scanning ahead for pedestrians weaving across the road, or car occupants about to open doors.

I accept that 80-90% (probably even higher) of cyclists break red lights at will - I've often stood at a light and watched ten or twelve in a row pass me by. It's all the more annoying when I have to overtake them forty seconds later. (Safely - I make sure there's room, and I indicate even when just overtaking.) And then just infuriating when they do the exact same thing at the next light.

And I also accept that motorcyclists use the cycle lanes occasionally. And as Paparazzo said, it's probably the least of my problems as well. I just needed a rant this morning - the sheer arrogance of the guy to use other people's breaking of the law to excuse his behaviour! If I'm in someone else's way, and I'm in the wrong, I apologise. That's all I expected from this guy. I wanted to make him aware that he was blocking the lane for me, and instead he ends up calling me a liar. It's just not on.

But if you yield to cyclists, I really haven't got much of a problem with you using the cycle lanes. Just be prepared to apologise if you're blocking it for those who are supposed to be using it.

egan007

This is another one of those threads that just points out the obvious....

some people on bikes break red lights
and
some people on motorbike use bikelanes

For example - I ride a moto and do not use bike lanes, I see plenty of bikes breaking red lights - There is no point in starting a thread. it's like chewing gum to solve an algebra equation

Paparazzo

buffalo wrote: »

I don't want to come across as smart here, but are you really checking your rear view if you're coming down the inside of traffic?

Yes! Always. Auld ones cycling slow are a bigger problem!
But this thread will probably be locked, it'd desending into a "i saw a motorcyclist doint this" and "i saw a cyclist doing that"
We all saw both breaking the law. We all do it every day.
But i understand your frustration, I get frustrated at cars driving in the bus lane, even though I'm not allowed drive in them!

buffalo

Paparazzo wrote: »

Yes! Always. Auld ones cycling slow are a bigger problem!

Fair enough - one of the advantages of having mirrors I guess!

corktina

egan007 wrote: »

This is another one of those threads that just points out the obvious....

some people on bikes break red lights
and
some people on motorbike use bikelanes

For example - I ride a moto and do not use bike lanes, I see plenty of bikes breaking red lights - There is no point in starting a thread. it's like chewing gum to solve an algebra equation

yeah, when it comes down to it, what everyone is really moaning about is the traffic....and we are all part of that problem...

jim o doom

buffalo wrote: »

Fair enough - one of the advantages of having mirrors I guess!

It's a major advantage, but most serious bikers not only check mirrors cosntantly, but also looking over your shoulder to make sure there's nothing there that the mirror doesn't hold

I don't cycle much any more, used to a lot on bmx's and the odd mountain bike, even drove a car for 1 year. When I'm on a motorbike, my level of awareness as to where literally ever other vehicle is currently an might possibly go to is higher than at any other time; not only is a motorbike totally unprotected (except for biking gear which isn't much) but we travel at much greater speeds & due to this most motorists never see us..

I know it's the same on a bicycle, but increase the level of personal danger due to increased speed & you get (for me anyway) seriously increased awareness; which includes constant looking in every direction, especially in front!

But I agree, the guy shouldn't have "douched" you out of it because he was breaking a law; but if you view it in the sense that you were "attacking him" (no matter how justifiable it was) - the automatick response to attack is defend, and a lot of people defend by attacking, especially during a stressful time like during traffic.. hell I can't say as I would have been pleasant myself, even if I had been wrong, because driving in traffic makes me aaaaaaangry

buffalo

corktina wrote: »

yeah, when it comes down to it, what everyone is really moaning about is the traffic....and we are all part of that problem...

Despite us technically being part of traffic, I don't think cyclists and motorcyclists are part of that particular problem.

Paparazzo

Get rid of cars, problem solved:D

corktina

buffalo wrote: »

Despite us technically being part of traffic, I don't think cyclists and motorcyclists are part of that particular problem.

well the motor cyclists in this instance were a problem to the cyclist and if they had been in the main carriageway they would have been a problem to the cars etc....and dont get me started on cyclists jumping the lights....:D

Its a jungle, we all want to get from a to b as quick as poss, nobody is lily-white when it comes to motoring laws.

buffalo

corktina wrote: »

well the motor cyclists in this instance were a problem to the cyclist and if they had been in the main carriageway they would have been a problem to the cars etc....and dont get me started on cyclists jumping the lights....:D

Its a jungle, we all want to get from a to b as quick as poss, nobody is lily-white when it comes to motoring laws.

haha! I get you now! :P

Cars: down with this sort of thing!

corktina

absolutely...signed : white van driver and paragon of virtue...:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

bazzer wrote: »

Don't want to be smart, but is that cycle lane bounded off the main traffic lane by a broken white line, or a continuous one? If broken, then the motorcyclists have every right to use it, as it implies a shared piece of roadway. If continuous, then they were using it illegally.

'Every Right'? Nope. 'Some right', perhaps.

1: The law only permits motor vehicles to drive along in cycle tracks with broken white lines, not to stop on them (except when parking is permitted). The problem is that cycle tracks are, at best, 1.5metres wide, but effectively less when encroachment by parked cars on the left and queued cars on the right is taken into account. That's why so many motorbikes (some the width of a small car) get stuck in them.

2: If the cycle track is contained within a bus lane, during operational hours, a motorbike can't legally be there.

carveone

jim o doom wrote: »

When I'm on a motorbike, my level of awareness as to where literally ever other vehicle is currently an might possibly go to is higher than at any other time;

And I believe that awareness carries with you when you drive a car. I drove a motorbike in Dublin for 4 years and you need to be paranoid. I would not drive a moto in a cycle lane myself given the level of exposure there. A car weaves in or opens a door and you're toast. A bus lane is a different matter

hell I can't say as I would have been pleasant myself, even if I had been wrong, because driving in traffic makes me aaaaaaangry

Could be worse. Try taking the bus. Given the number of weirdos on public transport, I'm totally losing it. Any traffic is better than this.

jim o doom

carveone wrote: »

And I believe that awareness carries with you when you drive a car. I drove a motorbike in Dublin for 4 years and you need to be paranoid. I would not drive a moto in a cycle lane myself given the level of exposure there. A car weaves in or opens a door and you're toast. A bus lane is a different matter

That's good to hear man, and TBH I've always held the view that ALL drivers should be forced for a year on to bicycles (if phsyically able) and motorbikes to increase their awareness - obviously this is an insane pipe dream

carveone wrote: »

Could be worse. Try taking the bus. Given the number of weirdos on public transport, I'm totally losing it. Any traffic is better than this.

Also totally agree, I couldn't stand public transport & I have no patience for sitting in traffic, so a motor bike is my only option.

well WAS my only option when I lived miles from work, now bicycles are again, thanks to house move, so I shall be alternating between the two as soon as the weather is slightly less cold

jim o doom

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

2: If the cycle track is contained within a bus lane, during operational hours, a motorbike can't legally be there.

When you say "can't legally" do you mean "are constantly"? It seems to me (As a biker) that pretty much 95% of bikers use the bus lanes & I've never seen one stopped by a garda for it.

And this is something I am glad of, stopping bikes using the bus lane would be retarded - it's not like we're causing congestion for the buses.

It would also be insane based on the many signs in Dublin that say "no right turn. EXCEPT - buses, taxis, bicycles & motorcycles. " The same groups of people that use the bus lanes all the time, surprise surprise.

trellheim

CP2k1 is correct. Motorbikes using the bus lanes is illegal. It is not enforced though, IIRC.

jim o doom

trellheim wrote: »

CP2k1 is correct. Motorbikes using the bus lanes is illegal. It is not enforced though, IIRC.

Yeah I know he's correct, learning the rules of the road was one of the things I had to do to get a ful licence a good few years ago..

My point is that through lack of enforcement & the fact that there are turns that only the vehicles that regularily make use of bus lanes can take (bus, taxi, bike, bicycle) it has become a complete NON-law.

It doesn't matter what the "letter of the law" is if it isn't enforced, now does it? We can say "could should would" until we're blue in the face, but the practical actuality is what matters.

jdscrubs

The best solution is a congestion charge from the M50 inwards. This would allow a lane for cyclists, one for motorbike&another for busses. Problem solved

Before anyone says they live in town, as I do, special exemption to those who live in town but they cant use the car in town.

Del2005

jdscrubs wrote: »

The best solution is a congestion charge from the M50 inwards. This would allow a lane for cyclists, one for motorbike&another for busses. Problem solved

The problem with that is there is nowhere to park cars outside the M50 and because of the corruption in our planning public transport isn't viable in most of the country.

Before anyone says they live in town, as I do, special exemption to those who live in town but they cant use the car in town.

A car still causes congestion once on the road no mater where it lives.