Simple idea for BÉ electronic ticketing

JayeL

I often buy weekly tickets from the Bus Éireann website and while it's a quick enough process, the whole printing-off-an-email business is a bit of a pain.

The drivers need a MAC number for the ticket to be issued but does it have to be on a piece of paper? Seen as BÉ already ask for your mobile number, why not send us a text with the MAC number? Show the text to the driver and away you go. Wouldn't it save time for the customer and the driver?

Security concerns depend on how secure a MAC number is. I know there's a possiblity that two people could use the same number for tickets, but if the MAC is useless after it's used to issue a ticket, this shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, if MACs can be used twice, couldn't I just print off copies of the same email and hand them out at the bus stop? Surely Bus Éireann have already taken precautions against this?

Or have they?

markpb

JayeL wrote: »

Security concerns depend on how secure a MAC number is. I know there's a possiblity that two people could use the same number for tickets, but if the MAC is useless after it's used to issue a ticket, this shouldn't be a problem.

I would think that the MAC can be used several times in one day but since it'll be tied to a credit card, they can just charge you for all the unpaid journeys when they notice or issue legal proceedings against you.

There's no reason why you couldn't tell the driver what the MAC is (as well as the other ticket details) but the reason BE won't state that is in case a few militant drivers would complain that they weren't trained, it's not in their contract, etc so to keep things simple, they make everyone show the same email in the same format.

Colm R

I’m highly suspicious of the integrity of this system, even though I use it. I don’t think the risk is with the customer.

I use this ticket weekly. Last Monday, I offered to take the print out from the driver, mainly because I think BE drivers have an awful lot to look after, however he said he needed to keep it. Who am I to ask questions? But do the drivers really need to return the print outs to someone.

Last year I was getting the bus to Kells on a Saturday evening after work, but left the print off behind me. I was able to bring the email up on my phone, however neither the driver or the ticket office was able to help me issue the ticket. I got a print off from a internet café and was on my way.

Anyway, if BE are serious about improving efficiency and cutting costs, then its seriously time to implement a change in its ticketing process. In the commuter areas it servers, it takes way too long to load a bus, the driver has way too much responsibity, including large amounts of cash.

Some simple cheap ideas that should be thought out:

If at a bus station, no tickets can be purchased on the bus.

Scrap the 10 journey ticket, and make it a weekly ticket. Not much revenue loss here as most BE Commuters use it twice a day, 5 days a week.

Separate out the mechanisms for intercity and commuter. Make commuter changeless, a la Dublin Bus. (I know this is controversial). This would also help pave the way for integrated ticketing, itself a whole other issue.

Promote online tickets and make it easier for everyone, driver included. One of the main problems is, if I buy a 10 journey ticket online, I then have to retrieve that ticket from the bus on the specified day, only at the specified stop, going in the direction I need to go. If the ticket machine is broken or the driver simply does not want to do it (it happens), then you have to make a very difficult attempt to get a refund (and its difficult), because the next time you are back at the bus stop is the next morning, and by then its too late.

Anybody else want to add to this.

Vic_08

Colm R wrote: »

I’m highly suspicious of the integrity of this system, even though I use it. I don’t think the risk is with the customer.

I use this ticket weekly. Last Monday, I offered to take the print out from the driver, mainly because I think BE drivers have an awful lot to look after, however he said he needed to keep it. Who am I to ask questions? But do the drivers really need to return the print outs to someone.

Yes, We do. When an internet warrant is processed through the ticket machine it adds the value of the undiscounted fare to the cash total on the driver's module. The printout MUST be kept and paid in with the rest of the takings making sure to subtract the full value (not the discounted value printed on the e-mail) from the cash pay-in.

Colm R wrote: »

Last year I was getting the bus to Kells on a Saturday evening after work, but left the print off behind me. I was able to bring the email up on my phone, however neither the driver or the ticket office was able to help me issue the ticket. I got a print off from a internet café and was on my way.

Issuing a ticket without a warrant to pay in is not allowed, you will be short the cash without any reason, the choice then would be to pay it out of your own pocket or explain why you took an internet fare without a print-out despite being specifically instructed not to do so.

To be fair it does say on the booking and e-mail that the printout must be presented so in the case of people without a printout I will not accept them.

With warrants that are for the wrong date the MAC code will simply not work so they cannot be accepted either.

With warrants that are in the wrong direction or are at the wrong location, they can be processed but it usually means logging out of the ticket machine and back in differently for the correct journey required to validate the warrant. In these cases I will usually process them.

Colm R

Thanks for the reply Vic, explains a lot. I will continue to use the ticket, because at the end of the day, they are cheaper. However the risk is there if the ticket machine does not work at my specified departure point as I normally buy 10 journey tickets.

But, as a driver, do you find internet tickets a pain in the hole? The whole process sounds very awkward.

You may not want to answer this, and I respect that, but do you think an overhaul on the ticketing system is necessary. Personally, I do, but then I'm not driver, and it doesn't bother me that much. (except the price!!!)

Also, as long as the system says so, I understand now why I need the print off, so if I ever forget it, my bad!!

markpb

Vic_08 wrote: »

Yes, We do. When an internet warrant is processed through the ticket machine it adds the value of the undiscounted fare to the cash total on the driver's module. The printout MUST be kept and paid in with the rest of the takings making sure to subtract the full value (not the discounted value printed on the e-mail) from the cash pay-in.

That's a strange way of doing it. Surely the ticketing machines can print an end of shift report that includes the total cash taken in and the total e-tickets redeemed? It sounds like a terrible limitation.

Aircoach and QuickPark tested mPayments years ago where a barcode was MMSd to your phone, scanned on the bus/gate and your ticket issued. It sounds a lot like the BE system (barcode instead of MAC) but a lot more flexible for customers and drivers. I'm not sure why it didn't take off, maybe MMS phones weren't widely available?).

IIMII

Colm R wrote: »

Scrap the 10 journey ticket, and make it a weekly ticket.

+1

And cuts out the "Oh, you can't use your ticket going home because you didn't use it coming in" rubbish

Colm R

IIMII wrote: »

+1

And cuts out the "Oh, you can't use your ticket going home because you didn't use it coming in" rubbish

Is this true? I've had situations where, if the bus was running late, the driver would wave you on provided the ticket was in date and never been a problem coming home. The following is from the BE website

Weekly (10 Journey) Tickets
Weekly (10 Journey) Tickets are valid for 10 journeys as specified, and as shown by fare paid and/or other details on the ticket for a period of seven consecutive days inclusive of date of issue and including Sundays. For example, a Weekly Ticket issued on Tuesday is valid up to and including the following Monday. When a public holiday falls within the period of validity of a 10-journey ticket, the expiry date is automatically extended by one day without endorsement of ticket.

If I get a lift in the morning, I'm sure I can travel home that evening on the bus. Vic?

Vic_08

Colm R wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Vic, explains a lot. I will continue to use the ticket, because at the end of the day, they are cheaper. However the risk is there if the ticket machine does not work at my specified departure point as I normally buy 10 journey tickets.

And I am not in any way trying to dissuade from using them. I am merely explaining why they work/don't work in certain circumstances. I would be much happier if every commuter turned up tomorrow with internet 10 journey tickets rather than large banknotes for single/day returns expecting exact change as so many do day in day out.

Colm R wrote: »

But, as a driver, do you find internet tickets a pain in the hole? The whole process sounds very awkward.

Pain in the hole? Yes when the don't validate for whatever reason but if they are correct then it is not any more awkward than cash. The biggest annoyance is when I forget I had taken one and only notice after I have paid in the full amount in cash. In that case it gets put in the following day but I am sure the nice people in the cash office are less than pleased with that.

Colm R wrote: »

You may not want to answer this, and I respect that, but do you think an overhaul on the ticketing system is necessary. Personally, I do, but then I'm not driver, and it doesn't bother me that much. (except the price!!!)

Yes, frankly everything to do with the fares needs an overhaul. Plans are in place to completely replace the ticketing system with one similar to that in use by Dublin Bus and this has been in the offing for some time.

If you look closely at any of the newer buses (some 07 and 08 reg) the currrent ticket machine is sat in it's docking station on top of a block of wood which is stuck inside the smaller docking station for the new machine. Some of these buses were delivered with the new machines in place but they were replaced before entering service as. The two systems would be incompatible and it is an issue of having to change over a great deal of the fleet in a short space of time and it will only happen when it is ready to roll with all the depot systems ready and tested. In the current climate I wouldn't be surprised if it has been delayed or postponed indefinitely.

Vic_08

Colm R wrote: »

Is this true? I've had situations where, if the bus was running late, the driver would wave you on provided the ticket was in date and never been a problem coming home. The following is from the BE website



If I get a lift in the morning, I'm sure I can travel home that evening on the bus. Vic?

The 10 journey ticket is valid for 10 journeys between the two points, it is of no consequence which direction or what order the journeys are taken in.

The issue IIMII is referring to is regarding the internet warrants.

Let's take the example of a "Student 10 Journey ticket Navan to Dublin, Departure date/First journey: 22 Jan 2009"

For this to validate in the machine and produce the ticket Navan must be set as the current location, Dublin as the destination, Student 10 journey as the ticket type and it must BE between 00:00 and 23:59 on the 22nd of Jan 09 according to the clock on the ticket machine.

If the passenger buys the ticket but for whatever reason doesn't use it that morning and presents the warrant at Dublin that evening the driver's machine will be set up - Current location:Dublin, Destination:Navan and the ticket will not validate. It is possible to reset the machine to validate it but it is time consuming, to reset twice (once to issue internet ticket and again to return to the correct journey) can take well over 2 minutes and with a queue of other passengers waiting to board, glaring at you for a strange delay 2 minutes passes very slowly.

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

That's a strange way of doing it. Surely the ticketing machines can print an end of shift report that includes the total cash taken in and the total e-tickets redeemed? It sounds like a terrible limitation.

It is I assume the only way a validation system could have been incorporated into the machines, it is surprising they were able to be upgraded as much as they have been with this and a limited connectivity to the AVL system. It is a rather old system, BE have had it for around 15 years and it was not new even then.

To give some idea of how out of date it is the Driver's module is the size of a 20 pack of cigarettes and has printed in large letters "Size 256k"

markpb wrote: »

Aircoach and QuickPark tested mPayments years ago where a barcode was MMSd to your phone, scanned on the bus/gate and your ticket issued. It sounds a lot like the BE system (barcode instead of MAC) but a lot more flexible for customers and drivers. I'm not sure why it didn't take off, maybe MMS phones weren't widely available?).

I believe it gave a lot of problems and as Aircoach did not give any date limitations people were making multiple trips on one return ticket as the drivers were unable to produce a ticket from the text or printout.

J_Dublin15

Vic_08 wrote: »

I believe it gave a lot of problems and as Aircoach did not give any date limitations people were making multiple trips on one return ticket as the drivers were unable to produce a ticket from the text or printout.

No problems as such, the reason that the system went offline over two years ago now is because of the fact the company who provided the service and the software, went bust owing aircoach E43,000 in mid 2006.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/09/03/story16926.asp

IIMII

Vic_08 wrote: »

For this to validate in the machine and produce the ticket Navan must be set as the current location, Dublin as the destination, Student 10 journey as the ticket type and it must BE between 00:00 and 23:59 on the 22nd of Jan 09 according to the clock on the ticket machine.

If the passenger buys the ticket but for whatever reason doesn't use it that morning and presents the warrant at Dublin that evening the driver's machine will be set up - Current location:Dublin, Destination:Navan and the ticket will not validate. It is possible to reset the machine to validate it but it is time consuming, to reset twice (once to issue internet ticket and again to return to the correct journey) can take well over 2 minutes and with a queue of other passengers waiting to board, glaring at you for a strange delay 2 minutes passes very slowly.

Say for example, my wife doesn't take the bus on the first morning of a 10 journey week. Say she has a dental appointment, and I drop her in instead of catching the bus. When she then tries to take the bus back home that eveing, world war 3 breaks out because she commited the cardinal sin of not taking the bus that morning. System is daft.

You can do online ticket check in on an airline but you can't on BÉ

Vic_08

IIMII wrote: »

Say for example, my wife doesn't take the bus on the first morning of a 10 journey week. Say she has a dental appointment, and I drop her in instead of catching the bus. When she then tries to take the bus back home that eveing, world war 3 breaks out because she commited the cardinal sin of not taking the bus that morning. System is daft.

the system is far from perfect but as I already explained it is the best available at the moment.

This limitation is noted before purchase, the first line on the booking page is "Customers must board the bus at the stage selected. If you do not board the bus at the stage selected then your driver cannot issue your ticket for technical reasons.
Note in some locations there is more than one stage e.g. Navan, Ardboyne Hotel or Kilcarne Bridge".

Best advice I can give is to buy the ticket only if you are sure it will be used, there is no limit on how close to departure they can be bought so if you have an appointment either buy an internet ticket starting FROM Dublin or leave it until the day after.

IIMII wrote: »

You can do online ticket check in on an airline but you can't on BÉ

Ridiculous comparison. On an airline you book a specific seat on a specific flight and your booking is checked off a list at check-in or boarding.

The fact is if you ignore the T&C of most airlines in that way you will either face a large surcharge, having to buy a new ticket or be refused travel altogether.

As I already said if someone presents an internet warrant that is in the wrong direction or stage but in date I will normally issue them but it takes time and it is a rare occasion in the evening rush that I would have 2 spare minutes to board one solitary passenger.

markpb

Vic_08 wrote: »

Ridiculous comparison. On an airline you book a specific seat on a specific flight and your booking is checked off a list at check-in or boarding.

It's worth noting that this project is complicated by the fact that the bus ticket machines are off-line to the back-office. Unlike an airline where the check in machine, departure gate desks and website are all connected to one database, BE TVMs must be able to securely verify a ticket without access to anything else. The solution isn't perfect but it works most of the time for most people.