Girl who died from diabetes after parents prayed instead of seeking medical care.

JimiTime

This was raised on the A&A forum. Here I'd like it to be discussed by Christians only thanks.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/story

So, we truly don't know if these people are a few sambo's short of a picnic, but it raises a point. Why is it that, for want of a better term, sane people who have faith are told 'doctors' and prayer by pastors etc? Is it not a bit faithless. A bit like, 'have faith in God, but just in case, here's the doctor'? When david stood before Goliath, he didn't even take armour or a sword. He declared, 'I come with the power of Yahweh'. He even criticised Sauls army for being afraid and faithless. He didn't think, I'll take a spear just in case. There was also King Asa, who was criticised for seeking physicians instead of God when required.

So why now, is it encouraged to seek man. We know that God definately can heal. So why is it, that this type of faith is discouraged?

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

This was raised on the A&A forum. Here I'd like it to be discussed by Christians only thanks.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/story

So, we truly don't know if these people are a few sambo's short of a picnic, but it raises a point. Why is it that, for want of a better term, sane people who have faith are told 'doctors' and prayer by pastors etc? Is it not a bit faithless. A bit like, 'have faith in God, but just in case, here's the doctor'? When david stood before Goliath, he didn't even take armour or a sword. He declared, 'I come with the power of Yahweh'. He even criticised Sauls army for being afraid and faithless. He didn't think, I'll take a spear just in case. There was also King Asa, who was criticised for seeking physicians instead of God when required.

So why now, is it encouraged to seek man. We know that God definately can heal. So why is it, that this type of faith is discouraged?

I believe God can miraculously sustain people without food, but I still made sure that my daughter ate regularly when she was a kid.

Svalbard

God is great. He gave us the human mind, curiosity and intelligence. Using His gifts man has discovered how the disease called diabetes works and have devised a way of producing synthetic insulin to treat it. God truly is great for giving us such gifts. Its so said this poor girls parents didn't see this. They will be held accountable for their actions.

Splendour

Svalbard wrote: »

They will be held accountable for their actions.

I gather you mean they will be held accountable by the law of the land-and rightly so! This is akin to JW's withholding blood transfusions.

The point that your above quote brings to mind for me is; will they be held accountable by God for their actions? After all, we are told to ask in prayer and it will be given...

Phototoxin

The insulin was freely available. it was already given, they were just arrogant, and decided to be stupid.

Rev Hellfire

Splendour wrote: »

After all, we are told to ask in prayer and it will be given...

Even I know that prayer isn't meant to be a blank cheque.

CathyMoran

When I was really ill I read somewhere that miracles take a lot of work...those parents were abusive to their child and should be prosecuted with the full strength of the law.

Splendour

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Even I know that prayer isn't meant to be a blank cheque.

I realise that, but these people did what they thought was the right thing to do. Now in my mind they were delusional, but they didn't go against God's word, so from a Christian viewpoint I wonder where they stand in God's eyes.

Ahh.. .if only it were a blank cheque though, where would we start eh?

Rev Hellfire

Splendour wrote: »

but they didn't go against God's word, so from a Christian viewpoint I wonder where they stand in God's eyes.

Isn't there a small print in the contract about not testing your god ?

Anyway its clear that most major Christian denominations embrace medical science, objecting only on matters typically of ethics. It has less to do with religion and more to do poor education.

freyners

JimiTime wrote: »

Here I'd like it to be discussed by Christians only thanks.
quote]

Is that not a little narrow minded??

ansd also while i may be a practising catholic and do have a good relationship with god, i can still see common sense. Back then, we didn't have as good of medical care system but now, we can cure many things. The is a time for prayer and a time to seek professional help, and these parents couldn't see that

I feel sorry that it happened but in my mind, the parents are wrong and they are the reason that they're child died. Medicine could have saved her, no doubt about it

freyners

Here I'd like it to be discussed by Christians only thanks.

Is that not a little narrow minded??

ansd also while i may be a practising catholic and do have a good relationship with god, i can still see common sense. Back then, we didn't have as good of medical care system but now, we can cure many things. The is a time for prayer and a time to seek professional help, and these parents couldn't see that

I feel sorry that it happened but in my mind, the parents are wrong and they are the reason that they're child died. Medicine could have saved her, no doubt about it[/

philologos

freyners wrote: »

Here I'd like it to be discussed by Christians only thanks.

Is that not a little narrow minded??

How is it closed minded to seek a Christian only perspective? The atheist / agnostic perspective is in the A&A forum.

It's been a custom here for quite a while for Christians for a Christian only thread to clarify doctrine or what Christians think about a particular issue.

This whole incident reminds me of a familar parable of sorts:

There was a man stranded at the top of a tree during a flood with fast waters flowing by. And a boat comes by and asks, do you want help? The man replies, "No God will save me". Eventually in the end a helicopter comes by and asks the man to climb up to get to safety, but he says "No, God will save me", eventually to be drowned. The funny thing is that the man was unable to see that God can work through circumstances and people. Also, in the case of diabetes, God has enabled you to live in a society where it is easy to get the correct medication, and for doctors to know what they are doing. This is a blessing also, although not a drastic miracle as some might expect.

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

I realise that, but these people did what they thought was the right thing to do. Now in my mind they were delusional, but they didn't go against God's word, so from a Christian viewpoint I wonder where they stand in God's eyes.

Ahh.. .if only it were a blank cheque though, were would we start eh?

I think harming, and even causing the death of a child is most certainly going against God's Word.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I think harming, and even causing the death of a child is most certainly going against God's Word.

So what of King Asa, or King David? Why is applying faith in such a manner wrong? I just think this whole, well God made medicine type of arguement very poor. Did God not also create disease also? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say we should do what this family did, but really, on what grounds should we not have such faith?

God told his people Israel that he'd keep sickness from them if they upheld his statutes. God gave men the knowledge to create weaponry, yet David didn't bring armour or sword to Goliath. King Asa was criticised for not approaching God to be healed. So on what grounds do you condemn a person for exhibiting faith that God will do as promised? 'If you ask your father for bread, he will not give you a stone'. I'm playing devils advocate here, as I feel the message is a bit vague from Christianity in relation to these things.

Jimi, the small minded Christian who hates to be challenged;):)

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote: »

How is it closed minded to seek a Christian only perspective? The atheist / agnostic perspective is in the A&A forum.

It's been a custom here for quite a while for Christians for a Christian only thread to clarify doctrine or what Christians think about a particular issue.

Thanks:) I was going to clarify that myself, but kind of thought 'who cares, people will think what they think'.

This whole incident reminds me of a familar parable of sorts:

There was a man stranded at the top of a tree during a flood with fast waters flowing by. And a boat comes by and asks, do you want help? The man replies, "No God will save me". Eventually in the end a helicopter comes by and asks the man to climb up to get to safety, but he says "No, God will save me", eventually to be drowned. The funny thing is that the man was unable to see that God can work through circumstances and people. Also, in the case of diabetes, God has enabled you to live in a society where it is easy to get the correct medication, and for doctors to know what they are doing. This is a blessing also, although not a drastic miracle as some might expect.

The thing is, why is it wrong to express faith in a manner that honours God as the one who raises up and throws down. Faith that says, 'Man can do things for sure, but nothing compared to you Lord'. I mean, as a chrisian, and assuming that these people were really faithful christians, can you condemn them in a christian sense? What are you condemning them of? Expecting too much from God?

PDN, you told a story of a bad illness you had while in Africa that was cured by a laying on of hands. So why would such faith be condemned? This family seemed to be asking for bread, but got a stone did they not? Again, playing devils advocate.

JimiTime

CathyMoran wrote: »

When I was really ill I read somewhere that miracles take a lot of work...those parents were abusive to their child and should be prosecuted with the full strength of the law.

I'm not sure if you are a christian or not Cathy? But from a Christian perspective, why is having faith that God will deliver being abusive? Again, from a christian perspective, and assuming that the parents were honestly christians.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

I think harming, and even causing the death of a child is most certainly going against God's Word.

But if they prayed to God and believed he was going to cure their child then they weren't going against God's word. Though I don't agree with it, I really think this couple thought they did what they thought God wanted them to do.

As Jimi has pointed out, David didn't bring any 'props' with him, he simply went out and faced Goliath KNOWING God would keep him from harm.

It's a difficult one. I've been uwell for years and I'm praying to God about it, as are many of my church congregation, but yet I'm still not well. Do I rely on prayer alone? No, I take drugs. Should I rely on prayer alone? I dunno, but given I've kids to look after and a job to go to, I've no choice.
So am I saying to God 'well you can't fix me so I'm going elsewhere' or am I just being realistic and thinking for whatever reason, God ain't gonna cure me so I need to take whatever I need to help me cope.

This begs the question, (which I believe is being discussed elsewhere on this forum); are we placing enough trust in God? Are we making Him our first port of call..?

cooperguy

So why now, is it encouraged to seek man. We know that God definately can heal. So why is it, that this type of faith is discouraged?

A man is in his house during a flood and the water keeps rising. A man comes up the road in a canoe and says quick get in ill bring you to dry land. The man says "no, im praying to god he will save me". The water continues to rise and the man ends up on his roof to keep out of the water. A helicopter comes along and the pilot shouts out "Quick climb in and ill bring you to safety" The man says "No I have prayed to god and he will save me" The pilot flies on and the water rises. The man ends up drowning. At the pearly gates he says "God, I prayed. Why didnt you save me" He replies "I sent you a man in a canoe and a man with a Helicopter, what more did you want".

Thats a shortened version of a story iv heard a few times it applies here I think. We have the medicine you use it. You dont expect god to appear by your side why do you deserve special treatment above all the other faithful people of the planet?

But if they prayed to God and believed he was going to cure their child then they weren't going against God's word.

Im sure if they are that good a Christian then they also know they are not supposed to test God

JimiTime

cooperguy wrote: »

Im sure if they are that good a Christian then they also know they are not supposed to test God

Well actually, Gideon tested God, if you recall the scenario with the sheepskin and the dew. Also, asking God to help with the motivation being, well, asking him for help is not testing him. Rather, its asking him to help. If I threw myself off a bridge to see if he'd save me, then I'd be testing him.

God forbid, If I had cancer, I'd know that God has the ability to take that disease away from me without any adverse effects. Now I know that there are odds involved in Man attempting to cure me, and also alot of bad effects to the treatment. So, from a Christian perspective, why is it wrong to say, I'm going to put my full trust in God? Why do we believe that he wont actually help us?

JimiTime

Splendour wrote: »

But if they prayed to God and believed he was going to cure their child then they weren't going against God's word. Though I don't agree with it, I really think this couple thought they did what they thought God wanted them to do.

As Jimi has pointed out, David didn't bring any 'props' with him, he simply went out and faced Goliath KNOWING God would keep him from harm.

It's a difficult one. I've been uwell for years and I'm praying to God about it, as are many of my church congregation, but yet I'm still not well. Do I rely on prayer alone? No, I take drugs. Should I rely on prayer alone? I dunno, but given I've kids to look after and a job to go to, I've no choice.
So am I saying to God 'well you can't fix me so I'm going elsewhere' or am I just being realistic and thinking for whatever reason, God ain't gonna cure me so I need to take whatever I need to help me cope.

This begs the question, (which I believe is being discussed elsewhere on this forum); are we placing enough trust in God? Are we making Him our first port of call..?

This is exactly why I started this thread. There does not seem to be a clear mesage from within Christianity about this. Sure, there are opinions on it, but nothing conclusive. It also 'seems' that faith is undermined. Jesus told his disciples that if you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could tell a mountain to move. So, why now are we saying, say your prayes, but take the Chemo or whatever? Again, I'm not sure myself, but I'd like something more than, 'god gave us medecine'. If that is all the Christians here offer as an explaination, then the jury's out for me tbh. It'll take some more meditation on the matter. I really wonder if that answer trully satisfies those that accept it though?

Asiaprod

Folks, this is a christian only thread, let us keep it that way.

@JimiTime: I can understand your frustration, I can see your point. I and my fellow mods can and will enforce that this stays a Christian thread. In return I expect you to also uphold your christian values, the one I am thinking of here is tolerance. This issue is horrific, so much so that it is now going through the courts in the US. People's emotions are running high with this outrage, people want to voice their opinions be they good or bad. I would much rather you report this type of post. A snappy comeback like yours "Well i don't see many other species posting on boards" and "So your point stands. Very good. It'd be better if it stood elsewhere though" is not quite what I had in mind as a reply. It does not really do you any favors, it comes across in the wrong way, hence the christian value I mentioned above. Far better to report the post IMO and we will handle it for you.

@ -JammyDodger-: in a nut shell, honor the unwritten agreement and stay out of this thread. This is being dealt with as a christian issue. And a very good one to boot. While I understand that you may indeed have intended your post to be interpreted as coming from a humanitarian perspective, the OP expressly asked for Christian only comments. Lets honor that one shall we.

To you both, This is a very interesting topic I for one am interested to see how it pans out. I am deleting this entire dialogue as it is pulling the thread off topic.

Hope you understand.
Asia

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

PDN, you told a story of a bad illness you had while in Africa that was cured by a laying on of hands. So why would such faith be condemned? This family seemed to be asking for bread, but got a stone did they not? Again, playing devils advocate.

Yes, and I did deliberately reject medical treatment - but in that case it was because I'd visited the local hospital and seen staff giving a whole line of people injections with the same needle. I made a choice to take my chances with the cholera rather than to contract HIV.

If someone wants to take risks with theiir own lives then that is their right. If the parents were sick and died after refusing treatment then they would be guilty of nothing worse than gross stupidity. But taking risks on a child's life is totally different. A parent has a biblical duty to protect their children. These parents shamefully neglected that duty and will have to answer to God for that.

Splendour wrote:

It's a difficult one. I've been uwell for years and I'm praying to God about it, as are many of my church congregation, but yet I'm still not well. Do I rely on prayer alone? No, I take drugs. Should I rely on prayer alone? I dunno, but given I've kids to look after and a job to go to, I've no choice.

In our church we pray for sick people every week. Some of them get healed and some don't. But we give them all the same instructions - keep taking your medication until the doctor declares you healed.

As Jimi has pointed out, David didn't bring any 'props' with him, he simply went out and faced Goliath KNOWING God would keep him from harm.

But we're not talking about someone doing a David here. we're talking about the equivalent of David sending some poor little kid to face Goliath. And in that situation I would expect God, and every Israelite in the camp, to give David a good kick up the backside.

Well actually, Gideon tested God, if you recall the scenario with the sheepskin and the dew.

Gideon was in the Old Testament. Since the Day of Pentecost we have the Holy Spirit abiding with us to help us make decisions. The Book of James says if we lack wisdom then all we have to do is ask for it - no fleeces, no casting of lots etc.

These parents should be charged with murder.

CathyMoran

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are a christian or not Cathy? But from a Christian perspective, why is having faith that God will deliver being abusive? Again, from a christian perspective, and assuming that the parents were honestly christians.

My point was that God was helping them (via the medical profession), they refused to take his help! That was why I said that sometimes miracles take a lot of work, God works through the doctors, chemo, whatever...

As an aside - I have had cancer and consider my survival to be a miracle, helped a lot by the prayers of so many people on boards - God guided the chemo, the surgery the doctors, gave me the will to live, gave me my wonderful husband...which is where it comes back to miracles taking a lot of work. It really is my phylosophy.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Yes, and I did deliberately reject medical treatment - but in that case it was because I'd visited the local hospital and seen staff giving a whole line of people injections with the same needle. I made a choice to take my chances with the cholera rather than to contract HIV.

And you would have done this with your child also I assume? All the while thinking that would be best for your child?

If someone wants to take risks with theiir own lives then that is their right. If the parents were sick and died after refusing treatment then they would be guilty of nothing worse than gross stupidity. But taking risks on a child's life is totally different. A parent has a biblical duty to protect their children. These parents shamefully neglected that duty and will have to answer to God for that.

But I think you miss my point? If in fact these parents thought they were doing the right thing in having faith in God to heal their child, then how have they 'shamefully neglected their duty'?

What I really think is dangerous in this, is that there seems to be mixed messages from within the christian camp. One minute we are saying faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains. If you ask your father for bread he wont give you a stone etc. Then we are saying, 'don't' rely on faith. Rely on the medical profession. Now surely one can see that this could confuse the heck out of someone no? With this kind of ambiguity, are not more cases like this going to occur?

In our church we pray for sick people every week. Some of them get healed and some don't. But we give them all the same instructions - keep taking your medication until the doctor declares you healed.

From a non believer point of view, you can see how this 'sounds' at least like a bit of a sham though?

But we're not talking about someone doing a David here. we're talking about the equivalent of David sending some poor little kid to face Goliath. And in that situation I would expect God, and every Israelite in the camp, to give David a good kick up the backside.

Tbh, I don't really accept that. You have already said that you would advise people to take their meds, so the point still stands. Why is it, that we believe faith will do so much, but when faced with such real world scenario's with such consequences, we step back and say, 'take your medicine'? I could most definately see why the non-believers say that its a bit of a sham. Wouldn't you agree?

We as Christians build faith up as this powerful force etc etc. However, when it comes to the crunch, we say 'hand me the tablets'. Now let me make it clear, i am not saying we should stop going to doctors etc. My point is, what is the facts about faith and its power.

Gideon was in the Old Testament. Since the Day of Pentecost we have the Holy Spirit abiding with us to help us make decisions. The Book of James says if we lack wisdom then all we have to do is ask for it - no fleeces, no casting of lots etc.

See, here's the thing. It also says about the mustard seed, and about ask and you will recieve, and the bread and the stone. So what the heck is going on?

These parents should be charged with murder.

Should they? Personally, if they are to be charged with murder, I think christianity needs to take some responsability too. For if from the podium, the words about the mustard seed, the bread and the stone etc are read out and everybody feels joyous, then there are going to be consequences such as this IMO. Can you see how there are mixed messages sent out by the christian world? Its something that needs to be addressed properly IMO. Its all well and good saying they were neglectful, murderers etc. However, we need to ask why they thought what they did. What do you reckon?

JimiTime

CathyMoran wrote: »

My point was that God was helping them (via the medical profession), they refused to take his help! That was why I said that sometimes miracles take a lot of work, God works through the doctors, chemo, whatever...

Now I'm not denying that this is the case. However, this is not biblical is it? Isn't this an explaination man has come up with?

As an aside - I have had cancer and consider my survival to be a miracle, helped a lot by the prayers of so many people on boards - God guided the chemo, the surgery the doctors, gave me the will to live, gave me my wonderful husband...which is where it comes back to miracles taking a lot of work. It really is my phylosophy.

I'm glad to hear you recovered. My point is, what is the message from within Christianity regarding faith? I'd just like some clarity on it.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

And you would have done this with your child also I assume? All the while thinking that would be best for your child?

No, if it was my child I would have grabbed the doctor by the throat and force him to use a clean needle.

But I think you miss my point? If in fact these parents thought they were doing the right thing in having faith in God to heal their child, then how have they 'shamefully neglected their duty'?

Because good intentions are not enough. It's what you do that matters.

What I really think is dangerous in this, is that there seems to be mixed messages from within the christian camp. One minute we are saying faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains. If you ask your father for bread he wont give you a stone etc. Then we are saying, 'don't' rely on faith. Rely on the medical profession. Now surely one can see that this could confuse the heck out of someone no? With this kind of ambiguity, are not more cases like this going to occur?

I can see how it would confuse the heck out of somebody who opts for deliberate ignorance. I can't help feeling that this families refusal to belong to a decent church fellowship helped create this tragedy. Any pastor worth his salt would have counselled them and would have pointed out that the quotation about God giving you bread or a stone refers to receiving the Holy Spirit, not to some blank cheque for receiving miracles 100% of the time.

Faith does indeed work wonders, and I have seen miracles, but we cannot live our daily lives on a basis of ignoring everything else and expecting a miracle. If that was the case then you wouldn't bother working, eating, or even pay your rent or mortgage. You would just rely on God to sustain you and keep your roof over your head. Heck, what about your lack of faith in relying upon a plane to fly you to Thailand? Why not just have enough faith to run down the runway and flap your arms?

From a non believer point of view, you can see how this 'sounds' at least like a bit of a sham though?

I guess that depends if the non-believer is really listening to what we're saying or just looking for an excuse to argue. I think it is much more of a shame to encourage people to think they're healed yet keep them away from their doctors in case the medical diagnosis shatters the illusion of healing. We say to our people that if they really believe they're healed then they should have the courage of their convictions and go and get confirmation from the doctor that the healing is real. Then, and only then, should they stop taking the medication.

This is biblical (Jesus healed some lepers and then sent them to the priests to be examined in order to confirm their healing) and also encourages other peoples' faith. It's great when people come back to the Church the next week and publicly testify to how their doctor declared them to be healed!

Tbh, I don't really accept that. You have already said that you would advise people to take their meds, so the point still stands. Why is it, that we believe faith will do so much, but when faced with such real world scenario's with such consequences, we step back and say, 'take your medicine'? I could most definately see why the non-believers say that its a bit of a sham. Wouldn't you agree?

No more than it a sham for missionaries to take language classes instead of trusting God to miraculously transform their words into Chinese or whatever.

Miracles are, by their very nature, rare events.

See, here's the thing. It also says about the mustard seed, and about ask and you will recieve, and the bread and the stone. So what the heck is going on?

What is going on is that God gives us the wisdom needed to live in a world where miracles do not occur for us on a daily basis (except in the fevered imagination of some TV evangelists).

Should they? Personally, if they are to be charged with murder, I think christianity needs to take some responsability too. For if from the podium, the words about the mustard seed, the bread and the stone etc are read out and everybody feels joyous, then there are going to be consequences such as this IMO. Can you see how there are mixed messages sent out by the christian world? Its something that needs to be addressed properly IMO. Its all well and good saying they were neglectful, murderers etc. However, we need to ask why they thought what they did. What do you reckon?

I reckon they should have been part of a biblically based church that would teach them how to understand Scripture, not by submitting to some hierarchy, but by being in fellowship with other believers so they could discuss the Bible together and learn to apply it sensibly to their lives.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

No, if it was my child I would have grabbed the doctor by the throat and force him to use a clean needle.

Because good intentions are not enough. It's what you do that matters.

Hmmm. That certainly makes sense, but is much too simplistic surely? What is better, to do the right thing with the wrong motivation, or the wrong thing with the right motivation? Surely Christs law of Love teaches us that it is what motivates us, that truly counts? Now if I'm a Christian (and in the case we are discussing this truly is only assumption), and I have such a faith that truly says to me, 'God will heal my daughter', is that wrong from a christian perspective? Is this faith misinformed or misplaced? If you think it is wrong, at what point does faith work?

I can see how it would confuse the heck out of somebody who opts for deliberate ignorance.

But why are we calling it 'deliberate' ignorance? Do you think it unreasonable to trust in God so much, that you believe he will help?

I can't help feeling that this families refusal to belong to a decent church fellowship helped create this tragedy.

Even there, there is assumption is there not? You are saying that they 'refused to belong to a decent church'? Do you know that? Maybe they've seen the corruption of churches around them. Maybe they were Jehovahs Witnesses, or knew someone that was abused by a priest, or witnessed a judgemental parish etc. They may have been very good Christians for all we know could they not?

Any pastor worth his salt

Again, something someone must find first. From my own experience, its not such an easy task. Then again, I've never met yourself:)

would have counselled them and would have pointed out that the quotation about God giving you bread or a stone refers to receiving the Holy Spirit, not to some blank cheque for receiving miracles 100% of the time.

Matt 7.
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

May I ask why this scripture can only concern recieving the spirit? Also, to be healed, you'd be recieving the spirit anyway no?

Faith does indeed work wonders, and I have seen miracles, but we cannot live our daily lives on a basis of ignoring everything else and expecting a miracle.

Some of the first brothers and sisters did so what changed?

Acts 2:
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

So at what point does it become a judgement call that its outside the realm of faith? Here we have in Acts, people selling all they have. Also, did not the apostles abandon all their worldly trappings to follow Jesus? At what point has this type of faith stopped?

If that was the case then you wouldn't bother working,

Well, why not work for the lord?

eating,

God created us with the need for food. However, if I decided to devote myself to Christ, should I not have the faith, that I will recieve sustinance?

or even pay your rent or mortgage.

Again, those brothers and sisters in Acts certainly had no such concerns did they?

You would just rely on God to sustain you and keep your roof over your head.

This is a bad thing? I understand its a bad thing if I'm a lazy so and so, who wants to sit around playing X-Box all day. However, if I'm motivated by Godly things, then yeah, why not?

Heck, what about your lack of faith in relying upon a plane to fly you to Thailand? Why not just have enough faith to run down the runway and flap your arms?

I didn't read that part of the pamphlet. We can do that??:eek:

Hey Sara, we're going back to Thailand. Get some carbs in though, we might be a bit tired:D

I guess that depends if the non-believer is really listening to what we're saying or just looking for an excuse to argue.

Is it not a valid point though, that the current view of 'prayer plus Chemo', is anything but encouraging to an outsider? What glory does God have in such a scenario? As a non-believer would point out. Chemo without prayer is just as good.

I think it is much more of a shame to encourage people to think they're healed yet keep them away from their doctors in case the medical diagnosis shatters the illusion of healing. We say to our people that if they really believe they're healed then they should have the courage of their convictions and go and get confirmation from the doctor that the healing is real. Then, and only then, should they stop taking the medication.

And in this realm of uncertainty, that is the responsible approach of course.

This is biblical (Jesus healed some lepers and then sent them to the priests to be examined in order to confirm their healing) and also encourages other peoples' faith. It's great when people come back to the Church the next week and publicly testify to how their doctor declared them to be healed!

Ok, if we are talking about a miraculous healing we have now reached a critical point. Faith heals.......sometimes. So if people are testifying as you say, to God miraculously healing them, then why would someone who believes in God not thing that they could be healed too? You see how this could be a scenario?

No more than it a sham for missionaries to take language classes instead of trusting God to miraculously transform their words into Chinese or whatever.

Yet, God has done it in biblical times. In fact, he says don't worry about what you'll say as he'll put words in your mouth. So whats changed?

Miracles are, by their very nature, rare events.

The question then, is why? My own personal view, is that contrary to the modern christian message, there are not many people who have holy spirit. It was poured out at Pentecost, and was very obvious and tangiable. I do believe it will be poured out again, and once again without ambiguity. Like the prophet Joel said, and Peter repeated in Acts

'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

What is going on is that God gives us the wisdom needed to live in a world where miracles do not occur for us on a daily basis (except in the fevered imagination of some TV evangelists).

Again though, I'd ask why? Why did the spirit bring such obvious visible gifts when it came, and now its cloaked in ambiguity?

I reckon they should have been part of a biblically based church that would teach them how to understand Scripture, not by submitting to some hierarchy, but by being in fellowship with other believers so they could discuss the Bible together and learn to apply it sensibly to their lives.

I agree that fellowship is so important, and talking and discussing things is priceless. However, we live in an age of such corruption, which christianity has not escaped from. So much corruption lies within various denominations that I can understand, I suppose because I can relate to it, why people find it hard to find a suitable fellowship. One of the things I think about, and its only an opinion, is that maybe the two prphets of revelation will literally come in the last days and tell us all to cop on. These 2 prophets are to be killed, and I wouldn't be surprised, just as in Christs time, the christian hierarchy would have something to do with it. As I said though, its only an opinion, but it makes sense to me due to the confusion which is rife within the Christian world. Also because alot of what the world of Christendom has done has stumbled many. Anyway, I digress:)

As always, I thank you for your valued and respected input PDN. I really do appreciate it.

mdebets

I don't understand, why many people treat prayers for medical help any different from prayers for any other help.

If you were unemployed for a long time and were to pray for a job, you wouldn't just expect God to make you wake up the next morning and having a job, without you having found a vaccancy, applied for it, done an interview and were choosen.
Instead, you expect that God would guide your way that you would find a vaccancy that suits you perfectly (he might make you cross the path with an old friend, who knows about a vacancy). So you would expect God to do this miracle with the help of another human.

Why is it then so hard to understand that medical miracles can also happen with an human agent (called doctors). The miracle might be that you end up with a doctor who knows how to treat your illness rather then with one who slept through med-school and can only cure a common cold.

JimiTime

mdebets wrote: »

I don't understand, why many people treat prayers for medical help any different from prayers for any other help.

If you were unemployed for a long time and were to pray for a job, you wouldn't just expect God to make you wake up the next morning and having a job, without you having found a vaccancy, applied for it, done an interview and were choosen.
Instead, you expect that God would guide your way that you would find a vaccancy that suits you perfectly (he might make you cross the path with an old friend, who knows about a vacancy). So you would expect God to do this miracle with the help of another human.

Why is it then so hard to understand that medical miracles can also happen with an human agent (called doctors).

Simply put. I can go through the job interview process etc. I can also go through the hospital process. I don't have to pray to have these things be sucessful. Now we can decide to attribute sucesses to God, or we can simply view it as due process. Then if we don't get the job we can reason, 'God didn't want me to get it'. What happens when it goes wrong in medicine? Is it 'God doesn't want me to live?' Its this ambiguity, which I feel is in need of rethinking.

The miracle might be that you end up with a doctor who knows how to treat your illness rather then with one who slept through med-school and can only cure a common cold.

But again, its 100% speculation. In hindsight, you can put a sucess down to God, but what of the failures? Its not a miricle when the shopkeeper serves me. Or when the resataurant cooks my meal. A doctor treats you according to his profession. Bringing God into the mix is just speculative surely? When God treats the sick he heals them. Whatever their affliction, they are healed. While man has worked out how to heal certain things, it can only treat others or not do anything about certain things. IMO, in the absence of God actually healing people, people have just rethought how the miricle is happening. I.E. Its God working through the doctor etc. IMO, its just people looking to proove to themselves that God has done something for them. Obviously I may be wrong, but thats why I'm here, to hammer it out.
Also, I don't think they have a cure for the common cold, so the sleepy student would probably be a medical legend if he did:pac::)

freyners

Jakkass wrote: »

How is it closed minded to seek a Christian only perspective? The atheist / agnostic perspective is in the A&A forum.

Actually im a catholic,


Anyway, if medicine is a blessing as you say, then why deny a blessing, if the medicine is there, there should be no delay in giving the medicine, to save there life.
The medicine was already there, so what were they expecting, they had the means to help their child, but they didn't