MPEG4 Recorder

pa990

What DTT HDD recorders are available with mpeg4 ?

or maybe someone can explain how i can record DTT signals

Simi

You can record them with a vcr if you want. Once the Mpeg4 has been decoded you can record it to any device using any codec.

pa990

but i have an mpeg4 tv.. i dont have access to an rf output .

i was looking at some of the Sony hdd recorders, but i cant get the specs, i presume they are mpeg2

slegs

I havent seen an MPEG4 DVD/HDD recorder just yet but I imagine they are not far off

watty

Indeed a DTT setbox with dual tuners and built HDD is best. You can pick recording via the Program Guide (EPG).

A few TV sets with MPEG4 may allow recording on a VHS or analogue DVD/HDD recorder via SCART out. However this is much poorer quality and only the channel you are watching.

Any Setbox will allow VHS or analogue DVD/HDD recorder via SCART, but again only the channel you are watching and at very reduced quality.

You can't use the RF connection, you have to select SCART input on the recorder.

The advantage of the Integrated Recording HDD (a model with DVD writer is x3 the price) is that there is no Digital -> Analogue SCART -> Composite -> Analogue to Digital conversion chain to record, with patterning on colours and colour flicker on fine patterns and blurring. Instead a DTT PVR (Personal Video Recorder) records the tuner output directly as digital to the disk. Playback is identical quality to live as it is the same signal. The setbox with built in HDD will usually have two tuners to allow watching one channel and viewing a separate one. Some can even record two overlaping programs as long as either you are not watching, or else watching one of the two channels.

Some models can have Satellite Tuner too. The most expensive is the €1,500 Reelbox Avantguarde with up to 6 tuners, HD, web browser, WiFi and DVD writer.

Search other threads for discussions. Now is a bad time to buy as the Irish service is not launched yet and the price is dropping and features improving rapidly on the PVRs as the MPEG4 chip set replaces MPEG2 and all boxes will do MPEG2/MPEG4.

Any of the UK "freeview" products likely only do MPEG2 so are no good. But many other countries use or will be shortly using MPEG4.

STB

No more products will be available that are not out there already. More readily available to the punter on the street, yes. Any cheaper, debatable.

This is the Sagem DTR 94250 HD. Its what Boxer use in Sweden. It has a built in 250gig hard drive. DTT only. Fairly hefty at €300-€350. Its more than likely the PVR box you will see here.




To answer the question.

To record DTT you need something that has a DVB-T tuner and decodes MPEG4 H264. It should also mention the word PVR Ready or have an internal drive to record to.

Of course there are plenty of products out there. The decision you will probably have to make is whether you will be happy with

a) a dtt box with a built in drive/PVR capabilities
b) a sat/dtt combo box with PVR capability once you connect a hard drive to the USB or eSATA (in this case whilst you can only record what you are watching). Typically I am talking about the Technomate 6900HD, Clarketech 5000HD Combo, Mvision HD200 Combo, Suber Darkbox Rev 2008 HD Combo and Metabox CXCI.
c) whether or not to go out and spend €600 on a box that you effectively build according to you requirements (has plug and play tuners which you can buy seperately) and has a built in HD such as the Cuberevo - (also known as AB IP 9000 Box).

I have come to the conclusion that without a requisite number of channels the "DTT only - PVR" is useless (unless you are doing it for techie purposes). And thats what makes the SAT/DTT Combo boxes so attractive at the moment as there is little in the difference price wise.
I will post a list of the boxes and their prices later on.

If you really want something for experimental purposes, pick up something dirt cheap on ebay france.

The Cush

The Sagem DTR 94250 is also an approved PVR together with the Grundig 8860 PVR on the Norwegian RiksTV MPEG4 DTT service.

pa990

It is very seldom that i record anything, so a low quality vcr will do me fine for the time being, its just figuring out how to do it.

I presume that if i'm recoeding via scart.. i'll have to set the VCR to record at a certain time, and also set the time on the TV to switch on and go to a particular channel as well.. Sounds like a lot could go wrong

kuro_man

STB wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that without a requisite number of channels the "DTT only - PVR" is useless (unless you are doing it for techie purposes). And thats what makes the SAT/DTT Combo boxes so attractive at the moment as there is little in the difference price wise.
I will post a list of the boxes and their prices later on.

I don't agree, dedicated DTT PVR will work seamlessly with the hard drive, have dual tuners, support HD and, coupled with a freesat HDR, provide the most flexible record/watch combination. I agree initial cost for 4 or 5 channels is a lot but thats a symptom of the a limited DTT service, not the box. Combo boxes won't have proper EPG on sat.

slegs

kuro_man wrote: »

STB wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that without a requisite number of channels the "DTT only - PVR" is useless (unless you are doing it for techie purposes). And thats what makes the SAT/DTT Combo boxes so attractive at the moment as there is little in the difference price wise.
I will post a list of the boxes and their prices later on.

I don't agree, dedicated DTT PVR will work seamlessly with the hard drive, have dual tuners, support HD and, coupled with a freesat HDR, provide the most flexible record/watch combination. I agree initial cost for 4 or 5 channels is a lot but thats a symptom of the a limited DTT service, not the box. Combo boxes won't have proper EPG on sat.

Seems to me that eventually the Freesat EPG will be available on most FTA and Combo boxes based on progress to date (Dreambox, Fortec, DVBViewer).
In that case, a full EPG Combo box quad tuner PVR (2 DVBT and 2DVBS2) will be the ideal for Ireland and not separate boxes.

Cuchulain

slegs wrote: »

In that case, a full EPG Combo box quad tuner PVR (2 DVBT and 2DVBS2) will be the ideal for Ireland and not separate boxes.

Now that would be very very nice.

kuro_man

I sent a swedish shop a request about the Sagem PVR - including VAT (moms) and delivery (frakt) they will ship a DTR-94250 for €368 at todays exchange rate. Not bad for a dual tuner HD box, if its any good; some of the SD/mpeg-2 Sagem PVRs got bad reviews. Has anyone got any experience of the DTR-94's or know a good review in English? (Maybe I should create a new thread for this.)

Hi

Total price for Sagem DTR-94250 250GB (MPEG4) inkl. moms + frakt: 3915:- Swedish crone

I recommend you to pay with credit card.

Med vänliga hälsningar
Conny

---

FYNDBÖRSEN - Allt inom hemelektronik. Etablerad på internet sedan 1997.

http://www.fyndborsen.se
Tel: 0345-20049
Fax: 0345-20800
Mail: info@fyndborsen.se

Mark#1

slegs wrote: »

Seems to me that eventually the Freesat EPG will be available on most FTA and Combo boxes based on progress to date (Dreambox, Fortec, DVBViewer).
In that case, a full EPG Combo box quad tuner PVR (2 DVBT and 2DVBS2) will be the ideal for Ireland and not separate boxes.

I'm ignorant to all this, so forgive me if this sounds challenging - it's not meant to: why do you say that (bold italics)? What suggests that this will eventually happen?

My ideal product, which is probably the same as most Joe Soap's (except those who are content paying for what Sky provides, I guess), would:

Have dual Freesat HD tuners.
Have dual Irish DTT tuners.
Have a 7-day EPG, combining both Freesat and DTT channels together.
Have a big integral HDD.
Be capable of any mix of recording/viewing between Freesat & DTT channels.
Be black.
Be cheap.

Will no-one come to Ireland's aid in our time of need?

I got this reponse from Humax back in August 08 when I asked if they had any plans to release an MPEG4 DTT PVR product:

"We don’t have the product which can support MPEG 4 DTT and PVR functionality, but we are considering to develop this kind of product.
But, this is very initial stage, so I have only very restricted information about this.
I am sorry that I cannot give you more information."

They already have the Foxsat HDR - imagine they made a single machine combining that with an MPEG4-capable version of the PVR-9300T . . .

To be honest, if PlayTV/PS3 turns out to not be capable of receiving MPEG4, I'd accept having to use both a Foxsat HDR and an MPEG4 PVR-9300T, even though it'd mean 2 separate EPGs - I'm sure the Harmony 885 remote I'm getting would do a good job of making that pretty seamless.

Or maybe we should all do a realistic self-appraisal of what we really want to continue being able to watch from the selection of Irish channels? I haven't done this, but I suspect that the vast majority of the TV shows that I like (from the four Irish channels) are available somewhere on Freesat, with the obvious exception of Irish news & current affairs programs.

BTW, where else do you guys look on the web for info on all this DTT PVR related stuff? The only place I use is here.


Mark

pa990

Mark#1 wrote: »

................Will no-one come to Ireland's aid in our time of need?.........................

Mark

ask the public sector.. they seem to be able to fix the entire countries problems according to biffo

slegs

Mark#1 wrote: »

I'm ignorant to all this, so forgive me if this sounds challenging - it's not meant to: why do you say that (bold italics)? What suggests that this will eventually happen?

My ideal product, which is probably the same as most Joe Soap's (except those who are content paying for what Sky provides, I guess), would:

Have dual Freesat HD tuners.
Have dual Irish DTT tuners.
Have a 7-day EPG, combining both Freesat and DTT channels together.
Have a big integral HDD.
Be capable of any mix of recording/viewing between Freesat & DTT channels.
Be black.
Be cheap.

Will no-one come to Ireland's aid in our time of need?

I got this reponse from Humax back in August 08 when I asked if they had any plans to release an MPEG4 DTT PVR product:

"We don’t have the product which can support MPEG 4 DTT and PVR functionality, but we are considering to develop this kind of product.
But, this is very initial stage, so I have only very restricted information about this.
I am sorry that I cannot give you more information."

They already have the Foxsat HDR - imagine they made a single machine combining that with an MPEG4-capable version of the PVR-9300T . . .

To be honest, if PlayTV/PS3 turns out to not be capable of receiving MPEG4, I'd accept having to use both a Foxsat HDR and an MPEG4 PVR-9300T, even though it'd mean 2 separate EPGs - I'm sure the Harmony 885 remote I'm getting would do a good job of making that pretty seamless.

Or maybe we should all do a realistic self-appraisal of what we really want to continue being able to watch from the selection of Irish channels? I haven't done this, but I suspect that the vast majority of the TV shows that I like (from the four Irish channels) are available somewhere on Freesat, with the obvious exception of Irish news & current affairs programs.

BTW, where else do you guys look on the web for info on all this DTT PVR related stuff? The only place I use is here.


Mark

Its just my opinion but I feel that this is now more likely than ever as there are precedents of the Freesat EPG stream being decoded and used in other receivers as noted above. The hardware used by combo boxes currently on the market is well capable of following the lead of the the Fortec and Dreambox by decoding the Freesat EPG. IMO, it is only a matter of time before they do. I would expect that before the end of 2009 the likes of the MVision Combo or the Darkbox/Metabox Combo will have full EPG capability giving Full EPG RTE/UK FTA in one box. This is not guaranteed but I do know that there is real activity in this area.

The next step after this is a move towards the full combo quad tuner pvr as outlined. The technology is all available, it is a software exercise at this stage to realise the solution. This wont be a cheapo product but it should be a 300-400 EUR price range initially. To me this would still eb exceptional value considering the services RTE/UK, HD, PVR, watch one record another etc without any form of subscription.

The only remaining element would be full MHEG5 integration for Teletext and Red Button features but this is a real nice to have imo.

Mark#1

The Cush wrote: »

The Sagem DTR 94250 is also an approved PVR together with the Grundig 8860 PVR on the Norwegian RiksTV MPEG4 DTT service.

I just had a quick look over this review ( http://www.google.com/translate?langpair=no%7Cen&u=http://www.lydogbilde.no/test-grundig-dtr8860vod.79291.101o4263o.lbt.html ) of that Grundig machine. Seems pretty appropriate for Ireland, as far as I can tell.

I'll ask some dumb questions now: If I bought one of those Sagem or Grundig units, what would the situation be regarding an Irish DTT EPG. Does one exist now? Would one of these machines be capable of displaying an Irish DTT EPG, assuming there will be one?


Thanks,

Mark

kuro_man

I think the EPG is part of the DVB-T standard, so it should be fine. I have a DVB-T card on the PC and it loads the EPG no problem (in GBPVR) from the DVB Stream. Thats my understanding of it anyway, but I could be wrong.

I think the Grundig look like the better machine of the two. Let me know if you find someone who will delivery to ireland are reasonable price.

watty

No. The full EPG is using MHEG5

Only Now & next info via the DVB standard EPG method.


Boxes made in ex-Grundig factory are sold with Thomson badge.

Boxes with a Grundig badge are not Grundig, but a brand now owned by Alba/Bush/Goodmans group. They may also own Roberts brand too now.

kuro_man

watty wrote: »

No. The full EPG is using MHEG5

Only Now & next info via the DVB standard EPG method.

Cheers.
Is MHEG5 part of the nordig standard?

Mark#1

So has an EPG for Irish DTT been designed/developed/created yet? Will we have to wait till we know more about a DTT EPG before we go and buy a DTT PVR? Or will any MPEG4, MHEG5 DTT PVR support such an EPG?


Mark

Onikage

It has been stated here before that the trials are using MHEG5. It seems overwhelmingly likely that the finished product will be MHEG5, but who can say with 100% accuracy?

slegs

The current Irish DTT test transmission EPG is available on boxes that do not have MHEG5 so it is not a clear dependency - I have used at least 5 different boxes withut MHEG5 that work with the current EPG. MHEG5 is definitely required for digital Aertel.

The Cush

kuro_man wrote: »

Cheers.
Is MHEG5 part of the nordig standard?

No, MHEG-5 is not part of the NorDig spec (which applies to Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden). MHP is the standard within the spec.

RTE has chosen NorDig as its minimun receiver requirement but has issued an extra document Additions and clarifications to NorDig Unified Requirements 2.0 (MPEG4 AVC, HDTV, MHEG5 etc) which adds MPEG4, MHEG5 etc to the basic NorDig spec.

Swedish network operator Teracom (owner of Boxer TV Access AB Sweden and joint shareholder in Boxer DTT Ltd Ireland) have also issued a document Additions and clarifications to the NorDig Unified specification (CA System, MPEG4 AVC HDTV etc) which requires MHEG-5 to be included for Irish DTT receivers.

See this thread for the relevant documents.

Mark#1

Is it likely that the EPG used for the test transmissions (or a version of it, rather than an all-new one) will be the EPG once it's all officially up & running? What did folk who received the test transmissions think of the EPG?


Mark

Onikage

watty wrote: »

No. The full EPG is using MHEG5

Only Now & next info via the DVB standard EPG method.

slegs wrote: »

The current Irish DTT test transmission EPG is available on boxes that do not have MHEG5 so it is not a clear dependency - I have used at least 5 different boxes withut MHEG5 that work with the current EPG.

Am I missing something here?

If both these statements are true then logically it must be transmitted on both extended DVB-EIT and MHEG5 streams right now. But I still think the future will be MHEG5 only (plus the mandatory DVB now & next).

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/BFED0C82-501B-42E0-8F38-0789EA604497/0/MinimumReceiverRequirementsforDTTinIrelandv10.pdf

slegs

Onikage wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

If both these statements are true then logically it must be transmitted on both extended DVB-EIT and MHEG5 streams right now. But I still think the future will be MHEG5 only (plus the mandatory DVB now & next).

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/BFED0C82-501B-42E0-8F38-0789EA604497/0/MinimumReceiverRequirementsforDTTinIrelandv10.pdf

Why would they change it?

STB

Bit of confusion here.

As well as epg design and layout, MHEG5 is primarily used for interactive content. Press the red button etc..... As used on freesat.

and.... DVB SI will read the tables for epg data anyhow as far as I know

Apogee

For the current tranmissions and the previous mpeg2 trial, the 7-day epg is/was being transmitted over DVB-SI.

RTÉ have plans for a bells and whistles EPG using MHEG5. Boxer, in their proposal, have stated that they will utilise DVB-SI.

slegs

Apogee wrote: »

For the current tranmissions and the previous mpeg2 trial, the 7-day epg is/was being transmitted over DVB-SI.

RTÉ have plans for a bells and whistles EPG using MHEG5. Boxer, in their proposal, have stated that they will utilise DVB-SI.

I presume the idea is that the Boxer lienup includes the Irish FTA channels thereby meaning RTE will also need to broadcast their piece of EPG over DVB-SI.

Why bother with an MHEG5 EPG at all?

L1011

watty wrote: »

They may also own Roberts brand too now.

Glen Dimplex dispose of it? Still on their website:

http://www.glendimplex.ie/brandstour1.php?id=8

The Cush

slegs wrote: »

I presume the idea is that the Boxer lienup includes the Irish FTA channels thereby meaning RTE will also need to broadcast their piece of EPG over DVB-SI.

Why bother with an MHEG5 EPG at all?

Since Boxer submitted its application and was awarded the multiplex contracts it has added MHEG-5 to its (Teracom) minimum receiver spec.

1.1.3. Irish DTT (I-DTT) Network
For the Irish DTT will in addition include a mandatory requirement for MHEG5 API as specified in DTG DBook specification (instead of DVB MHP).

If an Application Programming Interface (API) is included and activated then it shall be DVB MHP v1.1 (or later), see NorDig specification (requirements for the Swedish or Danish DTT network). IRDs for the Irish DTT network shall include MHEG-5 API UK profile version 1.06 with support of HD as specified in DTG D-Book specification.

Source: Teracom Minimum Receiver Requirements for the DTT Network (Sweden, Denmark and Ireland) v2.0

Boxer MHEG Announcement Welcomed by IMPALA
Monday, September 29th, 2008

LONDON, UK — Giri Valliappan, Director of Market Development with IMPALA, the International MHEG Promotion Alliance, has welcomed the recent announcement by Sweden-based pay-TV group Boxer that it has selected MHEG-5 as the interactive middleware to be included in all products marketed to receive its TV packages.

“Our selection of MHEG-5 is in no small part based on the fact that Boxer has won the license to provide pay-TV services via digital terrestrial television in Ireland when the system launches next year. With MHEG-5 to be deployed there by RTE for some of their services this makes complete sense for us,” explains Peter Johnsson, Manager, TV Technology, Boxer TV-Access AB.

“In addition we want to reach a unified technical specification that allows receiver products to flow between the markets in which we operate although at the moment neither Sweden nor Denmark use MHEG-5. Furthermore, it is by far the most deployed API in the DTT world with millions of users as well as the fact that it is pre-installed in the majority of IDTVs sold in Europe,” continues Johnsson.

“This is a tremendous further validation of the effort put in to the development of MHEG-5 and its rollout across the market. It also highlights the confidence that key suppliers are now placing in it and its ability to provide services that viewers actually use,” says Valliappan.

MHEG-5 is a public standard with country or region-specific profiles. Both free-to-air and pay-TV broadcasters are now looking into and deploying MHEG-5 as a low-cost middleware solution for rollout over terrestrial, satellite and cable platforms. IMPALA’s role is to provide guidance and advice to ensure the standard is adopted and implemented correctly and to expand its reach globally.

The founder members of IMPALA are Strategy & Technology (S&T), Cabot Communications and EchoStar Europe.