Bus Éireann set to axe 350 jobs and shut depots

Cookie_Monster

From todays Indo

A DRASTIC cut in services, depot closures and up to 350 job losses are expected at Bus Eireann today when it announces a major cost-cutting plan.

Sources have revealed that the company will unveil plans to pull over 150 buses, axe 50 routes and reduce another 100 services when it meets staff in Dublin city centre this morning.

It is also understood it will announce plans to cut up to 350 staff, with the majority of redundancies being among drivers.

Sources said a number of depots along the northeast are likely to be shut down as part of a plan to centralise operations.

Bus Eireann is also expected to follow the example of Dublin Bus and declare it does not intend to pay the national wage agreement at the meeting at the Gresham Hotel.

And speculation is now mounting whether Irish Rail will pay the national wage increase.

Unions said Irish Rail had told workers it would "make every effort" to award the increases.

The total removal of nearly 50 routes seems a bit mad. I'm sure IE will come out with a similar statement ovewr the next week or so.

the boss of me

Looks like there could be a nationwide bus and rail strike on the way.

jaffa20

the boss of me wrote: »

Looks like there could be a nationwide bus and rail strike on the way.

I doubt the people who will be happy to keep their jobs will go on strike.

the boss of me

Even drivers whose jobs are secure are facing huge reductions in their pay because of the changes management want to bring in. Shift pay , Sunday pay travelling time and overtime are all to go. A maximum 48 hr working week is to be introduced.
Drivers feel that management are using the recession to take away the benefits that have been fought hard for in the past and they won't give in without a fight.

aquascrotum

the boss of me wrote: »

Even drivers whose jobs are secure are facing huge reductions in their pay because of the changes management want to bring in. Shift pay , Sunday pay travelling time and overtime are all to go. A maximum 48 hr working week is to be introduced.
Drivers feel that management are using the recession to take away the benefits that have been fought hard for in the past and they won't give in without a fight.

Tough titty for the drivers then. If they don't want the jobs there'll be a queue forming pretty quickly who do.

the boss of me

aquascrotum wrote: »

Tough titty for the drivers then.

Tough titty on the travelling public I would have thought. :rolleyes:
270 buses removed from service is hardly a good thing.

aquascrotum

the boss of me wrote: »

Tough titty on the travelling public I would have thought. :rolleyes:
270 buses removed from service is hardly a good thing.

It's the public running scared of strikes that has given the unions the power they have, which in turn is why we've had scandalous inflation for the last decade due to wage deals, and is a major factor why we are where we are.

If a driver is pi**ed off with getting his overtime cut, then he can go join the dole queue with the thousands of others already there. I'd take reduced hours over no hours at all, which is a prospect facing quite a few of us.

ferdi

Well said!

dsane1

Afaik a lot of bus eireann drivers are doing compulsory overtime ,and always have done. It's part of their roster as set by the company and they cannot refuse to do this overtime .

penexpers

Wonder if nightrider services will be part of the chop?

Trampas

penexpers wrote: »

Wonder if nightrider services will be part of the chop?

Some might. The odd time I have been on the Naas one is fairly full and at €10 a head has to make money as easily 40 people on it.

That_Guy

Any idea which routes are going yet?

Victor

http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=693&month=Jan

Increase text size Decrease text size Print page
Bus Éireann Statement

Since 2000, Bus Éireann has expanded its network of services in line with customer demand, increased passenger numbers and been profitable. External consultants’ reports during that time have found that Bus Éireann has been operating efficiently in providing a value for money service throughout the country. External independent surveys have shown a high level of customer satisfaction among customers with Bus Éireann carrying over 90 million passenger journeys per annum.

Unfortunately, due to the effect of the global recession on the country’s economy in 2008, there has been a significant drop in demand for public transport, which has impacted negatively on Bus Eireann’s revenues. As a commercial semi-State, Bus Éireann must address this situation to ensure it is in a strong position for when there is an economic recovery.

Bus Éireann has today (January 20 2009) informed its 2,700 employees of the company’s cost effectiveness plan that outlines the measures necessary to ensure its success in a very challenging economic environment. These include a reduction in the company’s road passenger fleet by 150 vehicles with the subsequent reduction of approximately 300 positions across the organisation.

The unprecedented economic downturn led to a four per cent decrease in Bus Éireann customer numbers in 2008 because of the fall in the number of people in work, the drop in the number of non-Irish nationals, the significant slowdown in retailing and a reduction in the number of tourists visiting the country. It is estimated that there will be a further five to six per cent fall in passenger numbers in 2009.

Given this difficult situation and after an extensive review of all aspects of our operations, the company has put in place a cost effectiveness plan to address the matter. The plan is designed to protect as many services and jobs as possible so that it can continue to provide transport to the considerable number of people throughout the country who use our services every day, while returning the company to a break-even situation by the end of 2010. Safety and customer service will remain the company’s priorities.

The cost effectiveness plan includes the following measures:

* A reduction in the company’s road passenger fleet by 150 vehicles with the subsequent loss of approximately 300 positions throughout the organisation. This change to fleet numbers will also lead to a re-organisation of our network in line with demand phased in over a period of time. It is with great regret that Bus Éireann has to take this action, but it is unavoidable and necessary given the current economic environment.

It would not be appropriate at this time for Bus Éireann to provide details on the planned changes to staffing and service levels as they will need to be first outlined to staff and trade unions at meetings planned with trade union officials representing individual staff groupings. It is hoped that those meetings would take place as soon as possible as the plan must be finalised by the end of February 2009. Bus Éireann will inform the public in advance of any changes to its services.

* Bus Éireann will have to defer payment of the terms of Towards 2016 at this time. A pay freeze up to the end of 2009 will be put in place at which time the situation will be reviewed in the light of the implementation of cost reduction measures.
* There will be no recruitment from outside the organisation for 2009 and 2010 at least.
* The company will not pay disturbance allowances to any staff who may have to move workplace as a result of this restructuring. The company will also not be able to consider any claims for compensation for loss of earnings as a result of changes in work practice.

It is envisaged that savings from the plan will restore the company to a strong financial position by the end of 2010.

Bus Éireann regrets having to make these changes and is acutely aware of the difficulties they may cause for staff and customers. However, implementation of this cost reduction plan, which follows on-going cost cutting measures over recent years, is vital to the company’s future. Bus Éireann is determined to work positively with employees and their trade union representatives during these challenging times in order to ensure the on-going viability and success of the business and its return to profitability.

Bus Éireann would like to pay tribute to all our employees throughout the country for their commitment and professionalism.

Tuesday, 20th January, 2009

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0121/1232474671168.html

Unions angered by Bus Éireann cutbacks
CIARÁN HANCOCK, Business Affairs Correspondent

TRADE UNIONS reacted angrily yesterday to Bus Éireann’s confirmation that it intends to make 322 of its 2,700 staff redundant and remove 150 buses from its 1,300-strong fleet.

It also plans to axe routes and trim its schedules from the beginning of March. Bus Éireann said the move was necessary to restore its finances to a break-even situation by the end of 2010.

The company is projecting losses of €30 million for 2009 in spite of a 13 per cent rise in its State subvention this year to €41 million. It expects to carry 90 million passengers this year, a reduction of 5-6 per cent on 2008.

Bus Éireann recorded an operating loss of €9 million in 2008.

“It is with regret that Bus Éireann has to take this action but it is unavoidable and necessary given the current economic environment,” it said.

News of the “cost-effectiveness plan” was outlined to shop stewards and union leaders at an 80-minute meeting yesterday at the Gresham Hotel in Dublin.

About 230 drivers will be made redundant, along with 31 clerical staff and 61 other staff.

Bus Éireann will cut 30 buses from its fleet in Cork, with 25 going in Dublin and 24 in Limerick. Depots in Athlone, Ballina, Dundalk, Galway, Sligo, Stranorlar, Tralee and Waterford will also lose buses.

Unions were informed that trainee staff would be let go with no redundancy payments. About 85 trainee drivers will be affected.

Michael Faherty, general secretary of the National Bus and Rail Union, slammed the move. “They are describing these people [trainees] as part-timers but by no stretch of the imagination are they part-timers,” he said.

Editorial comment: page 15

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0121/1232474670384.html

THE SHEDDING of 600 jobs and the removal of 270 buses from the public transport system represents an indictment of management at the CIÉ group of companies, while reflecting trade union inflexibility and Government cowardice. Fianna Fáil-led governments have talked for years about restructuring public transport but done nothing. We are living with the consequences. Passenger numbers at Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann fell last year. And public subsidies of €67 million failed to meet the shortfall. To prevent a worsening of that situation, jobs are being cut and buses taken out of service.

Green Party spokesman on transport Ciarán Cuffe accused CIÉ management of taking the “easier option” of cutting jobs and services, instead of reforming the company. Quite right. Because of political interference at times of industrial unrest, however, it is understandable that management would seek savings by cutting temporary jobs and imposing a freeze on recruitment. It won’t solve the company’s core problems. But it will postpone the day of reckoning and keep the politicians at bay.

What should happen to executives and board members who decline to use the product of their companies? How can they judge the quality of service being provided, the morale of staff or the need for change? That dislocation between management, staff and public is fundamental. The first item on any reform agenda within CIÉ should involve the elimination of company cars and mileage allowances. The public cannot be expected to appreciate a transport system that is not extensively used by its senior management.

Dublin Bus was provided with funds for an additional 100 buses in 2007. That did not lead to extensive route changes or provide late night or early morning Sunday services. The company did, however, drive a competitor out of business by saturating its routes with buses. Now, having lost money, it proposes to reduce its fleet by 120 buses at a time when the city council is attempting to keep motorists out of central Dublin. In the same vein, Bus Éireann plans to cut 320 jobs and drastically reduce its fleet, half of which is used for school transport. Rural areas will be seriously affected.

Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey insists that these issues are the responsibility of management and unions. And he looks forward to a day when a national transport agency will regulate all such services, because his department is incapable of doing the job. The agency is due to be established this year. It was first promised 20 years ago. Don’t hold your breath.

Cookie_Monster

Victor's Quote wrote:

And he looks forward to a day when a national transport agency will regulate all such services, because his department is incapable of doing the job.

Good man, Noel. At least he admits he and his department are useless:pac:

the boss of me

aquascrotum wrote: »

It's the public running scared of strikes that has given the unions the power they have, which in turn is why we've had scandalous inflation for the last decade due to wage deals, and is a major factor why we are where we are.

Yeah , it's all the unions fault not the banks for throwing money around or the Govt who encouraged the building frenzy.
FYI the 160 drivers getting laid off in DB are not on great wages and conditions. They earn less than €630 pw incl shift allowance. This is well below the average industrial wage. They have no set working hours, they could be starting at 5 am or finishing at 1.00 am . They will not know what shift they will be working tomorrow, till 1pm today. This make it very difficult to make childcare arrangements or to make any social commitments.
Furhermore many of these drivers left jobs because they were enticed into DB and BE with the promise of "Fulltime permanent positions".

Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey insists that these issues are the responsibility of management and unions. And he looks forward to a day when a national transport agency will regulate all such services, because his department is incapable of doing the job. The agency is due to be established this year. It was first promised 20 years ago. Don’t hold your breath.

That's all we need , another useless Govt agency. Look at how well the financial regulator and the taxi regulator have worked out.

Victor

the boss of me wrote: »

They earn less than €630 pw incl shift allowance.

Is that bad for a starting position?

This is well below the average industrial wage.

Realise that "average industrial wage" includes management.

AlekSmart

That's all we need , another useless Govt agency. Look at how well the financial regulator and the taxi regulator have worked out.

Boss of me raises a very valid point here.

Our current experience of utilizing industry "Regulators" here has not exactly filled me with unrestricted hope or glee.

Both the Financial and Taxi regulatory offices have proven spectacularly unable to regulate positively in their alloted areas.

It`s interesting that both of the Regulators concerned,Financials Paddy Neary and Taxi`s Kathleen Doyle gave somewhat worrying lacklustre performances before their rerspective Dàil Committee`s.

It is also deeply worying that the Minister Dempsey has retreated substantially from the agreed and anticipated Dublin Transport Authority setup.

Instead,at the 11th hour,the Minister has totally altered the focus of such a regulator by announcing it as a National Regulator with a somewhat diffused set of new responsibilities..

This notion of making a last minute Regulatory course alteration is verging upon madness IMO.

However,given Irelands current Political drought it hardly surprises anybody.

Consider the fact that under the present setup,both Paddy Neary and Kathleen Doyle would be considered front-runners to move over into the new Transport Regulatory Authority as it curently stands.

Nobody currently appears to value the need for a strong INDEPENDENT Regulatory framework in any of our sectors.
If Governments are unwilling to note that INDEPENDENT bit then the entire notion of Regulatory bodies should be dispensed with and the responsibilities taken back by the relevant Government Departments ( Ministers :eek: ).

Any truly effective Regulatory body really has to get down and dirty in it`s respective area of operations.
That means it cannot operate as a fringe-body of the Industry`s major players,as startlingly portrayed by Paddy Neary`s performance.
Neither can it simply assume some sort of turnkey position for the removal of realistic controls and limits on the current industry norm`s as Kathleen Doyle has done.

Sadly the current Government appear to have suddenly slipped into a catatonic state with already suspect Minister`s such as Mr Dempsey quite blatently exhibiting their desire to use regulators as a buffer to Ministerial Responsibility in the same way as Ms Harney has done in Health.

To perhaps misquote the late Japanese Emperor Hirohito after the Americans dropped the A Bomb...."The course of the war has taken a turn not necessarily to our advantage" :mad:

the boss of me

Victor wrote: »

Is that bad for a starting position?

Probably not Victor !! But it is hardly likely to have caused the economic crisis we're in, which is what Aquascrotum seemed to be implying. Also the wages don't increase hugely as a driver gains experience. Actual figure is €613 pw year one to €710 year four.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

Is that bad for a starting position?

630 pw after shift allowance is 12.11 per hour basic for a 40 hour week.

8.65 is the minimum wage, I'd imagine bus and coach drivers are more skilled than unskilled labour, and due to the responsibilities in their work, are probably due a higher rate of pay.
What do staff in the German supermarkets get paid by comparison?

aquascrotum

the boss of me wrote: »

But it is hardly likely to have caused the economic crisis we're in, which is what Aquascrotum seemed to be implying.

My statement/rant was not at the drivers who are getting laid off who I have every sympathy with. It was more directed at the threat of unionised strike action due to the loss of "benefits that have been fought hard for in the past" for those drivers who remain in a job.

The point stands, if they don't want their job now that the associated benefits have been cut, there'll be a queue of people who'll take the job off their hands. And being below national industrial average wage does not mean they're on the breadline - surely by definition about 50% of the working population should be below a national average?

shltter

aquascrotum wrote: »

My statement/rant was not at the drivers who are getting laid off who I have every sympathy with. It was more directed at the threat of unionised strike action due to the loss of "benefits that have been fought hard for in the past" for those drivers who remain in a job.

The point stands, if they don't want their job now that the associated benefits have been cut, there'll be a queue of people who'll take the job off their hands. And being below national industrial average wage does not mean they're on the breadline - surely by definition about 50% of the working population should be below a national average?

Couple of things

Drivers are not responsible for the current situation and we are not prepared to just lie down and take whatever the company decides we deserve.


In DB 130 non driving jobs are voluntary redundancy
160 driving jobs are involuntary this is unacceptable some of these people were taken on when the company knew the way things were going.

The company are overstating the problem

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56780241#post56780241

That was last August they were predicting 16 million loss for 2008 it turned out to be 10 million

where did the 6 million come from between August and year end and it wasn't fuel because they were hedged till feb this year

Fuel prices are now back at levels when DB was making a profit.

The reduction in Subvention and the removal of the excise rebate are what has caused this problem.
And Drivers will not give up terms and conditions and put ourselves back 50 years to pay for the mistakes of other people.

Yes there has to be increased flexibility and our unions can negotiate changes but we will not be blackmailed and threatened.


Companies proposals

Removal of shift pay from drivers on Bogies (split shifts over 13 hours) that is a wage reduction of over €100 a week.

Company wants the right to change, extend, combine routes whenever they want with no compensation. ( For drivers this means that the company can basically move you around whenever they want with no negotiation) So say the company can just decide to join the 27 and the 77 and move all drivers to Ringsend then to Harristown whatever they like no discussion.

Removal of current payment for late breaks. ( to facilitate the service drivers agreed that where they were late going on breaks they would return at the correct time in return for 1 hours overtime payment)

Removal of paid travelling time even to outside termini

Multiple routes on single duties

Introduction of 48 hour max working week

Refusal to pay either of the pay increases under social partnership.

Use of part time drivers to cover current overtime


To the outsider these may seem like minor changes but these are fundamental changes to our current terms and conditions.

Apart from the reduction in pay for some drivers and the reduction in overtime


They would allow the company to move drivers to different routes and different garages change their shifts put them back to being spare whenever they felt like it.
Drivers after route almagamations could end up working over the far side of the city without any negotiation or payment of travelling time and no security of shifts etc

invincibleirish

I read that as strike talk, don't do it, not if you want any public support.

shltter

invincibleirish wrote: »

I read that as strike talk, don't do it, not if you want any public support.

If the company proceed with sacking junior drivers then there will be a strike.

No negotiations will take place on the current plan while the threat of involuntary redundancy is in place.

The unions have said that if there is a surplus then it should be on a voluntary basis as applies to all other grades. These people were in the training school as late as October many have left jobs to take up an offer of a permanent pensionable job.

Once that threat is removed then negotiations can take place and we will see where it leads

aquascrotum

shltter wrote: »

If the company proceed with sacking junior drivers then there will be a strike.

No negotiations will take place on the current plan while the threat of involuntary redundancy is in place.

The unions have said that if there is a surplus then it should be on a voluntary basis as applies to all other grades. These people were in the training school as late as October many have left jobs to take up an offer of a permanent pensionable job.

Once that threat is removed then negotiations can take place and we will see where it leads

I work in the private sector and have taken a 10% paycut and removal of overtime. My employers profits were up 15% on 2007. I wasn't consulted but I (along with 150 other staff) took it in the interests of keeping our jobs. 18 other staff were laid off. They weren't consulted either.

My girlfriend works in the private sector and has taken a 15% paycut, removal of overtime, 60% knocked off travel and subsistence rates. She wasn't consulted but took it because the alternative was the dole.

My landlord worked in the private sector and last week lost his job. He wasn't consulted either. Same for half a dozen people i went to college with, quite a few of my former colleagues, my cousin, etc etc etc.

So why do BE staff think that they need to be consulted on management decisions and why do they think the public are going to tolerate, never mind have sympathy, for them and their threat of strike action when redundancies are everywhere??

dowlingm

I doubt the workers laid off in the private bus sector were consulted either.

spareman

aquascrotum wrote: »

I work in the private sector and have taken a 10% paycut and removal of overtime. My employers profits were up 15% on 2007. I wasn't consulted but I (along with 150 other staff) took it in the interests of keeping our jobs. 18 other staff were laid off. They weren't consulted either.

My girlfriend works in the private sector and has taken a 15% paycut, removal of overtime, 60% knocked off travel and subsistence rates. She wasn't consulted but took it because the alternative was the dole.

My landlord worked in the private sector and last week lost his job. He wasn't consulted either. Same for half a dozen people i went to college with, quite a few of my former colleagues, my cousin, etc etc etc.

So why do BE staff think that they need to be consulted on management decisions and why do they think the public are going to tolerate, never mind have sympathy, for them and their threat of strike action when redundancies are everywhere??

Private sector have been creaming it for years, How do you think we got in this mess, My friends laughed at me when I took the job at DB, many of them earning twice my wage in the private sector, I took it because I wanted Job security, with a young family and a hefty mortgage I needed security, If Dublin bus management under the direction of Minister Dempsey are succesful in forcing drivers to accept these cutbacks I would be coming to work for €20 a day more than I would get on the dole, and when you factor in work related expenses and other benifits which I would be intitled to on the dole to be honest Id be better off on the dole. Who wants to get out of bed at 4am or into bed at 4am for €20?

This Government aint going to be happy untill the whole country stop working.

challengemaster

Wahey, Ireland's crappy transport system gets even worse!

:mad:

Vic_08

aquascrotum wrote: »

I work in the private sector and have taken a 10% paycut and removal of overtime. My employers profits were up 15% on 2007. I wasn't consulted but I (along with 150 other staff) took it in the interests of keeping our jobs. 18 other staff were laid off. They weren't consulted either.

So your employer is making more money and you are willing to get paid less while meekly standing by as they ditch your colleagues. Exactly what part of that am I supposed to find inspiring?

Perhaps if you were unionised you could have kept more of your salary and more importantly shown solidarity to your former colleagues by standing up to the profit before everything mentality that has been at the core of our current economic meltdown.

Perhaps not and besides you still have your job. You're all right, Jack. And anyway this recession is only a blip in the ever skyward progression of the economy. In no time at all we will all be back selling our houses to each other for vastly inflated sums and because of your snivelling loyalty your corporate masters will reward you with an invitation to the top floor and a seven figure salary.


I was going to give my opinion on the topic at hand which is I am told by the papers my job being gone but really what's the point?

As for losing public opinion, why should any of us give two anythings what the public think? Last time I checked I was not up for election and anyway in this country the most popular approach is to steal, fritter and give our mates all of the goods while promising to do the same all over again.

Maybe that's the mistake all us dumb bus drivers are making, instead of demanding we are not sacked or receiving major pay cuts we should demand huge increases for far less actual effort. Let's put it to a public vote, it works for Fianna Fail...Again and again.

jank

As for losing public opinion, why should any of us give two anythings what the public think? Last time I checked I was not up for election and anyway in this country the most popular approach is to steal, fritter and give our mates all of the goods while promising to do the same all over again.

Maybe that's the mistake all us dumb bus drivers are making, instead of demanding we are not sacked or receiving major pay cuts we should demand huge increases for far less actual effort. Let's put it to a public vote, it works for Fianna Fail...Again and again.

Well you offer a public service so yea public opinion will matter alot. It will make or break the strike. Remember the ASTI strikes?
If you go on strike then you are on your own really as nobody except the unions will back you. By all means go ahead but this might be the chance that the government has to break the union stranglehold of CIE.

If you go on strike? Will you be getting paid? How long can you last without pay?

Oh as regards a public vote well if it does go that way id expect more of a PD result than a FF result:)

bk

jank wrote: »

If you go on strike then you are on your own really as nobody except the unions will back you. By all means go ahead but this might be the chance that the government has to break the union stranglehold of CIE.

I agree, in fact it could well be the slippery slope to breaking up and privatising DB IMO.

shltter

jank wrote: »

Well you offer a public service so yea public opinion will matter alot. It will make or break the strike. Remember the ASTI strikes?
If you go on strike then you are on your own really as nobody except the unions will back you. By all means go ahead but this might be the chance that the government has to break the union stranglehold of CIE.

If you go on strike? Will you be getting paid? How long can you last without pay?

Oh as regards a public vote well if it does go that way id expect more of a PD result than a FF result:)

For some reason people think you need public support to win an industrial dispute.
You don't plenty of disputes have had the backing of the public and the workers still lose out and vice versa

As for ASTI they never had a strike they withdrew from the ICTU and launched a campaign about supervisory pay for breaks etc

BTW ASTI did not on the general pay claim but they never went on strike and they did not have the support of the others teacher unions if they had the courage of their convictions I suspect the outcome would have been different.

But they did succeed in the claim for payment for supervising which they withdrew labour on.

Nostradamus

If CIE workers go on strike the public support will be a big fat ZERO. If fact, the public resentment will come back in spades and if the NBRU and SIPTU were idiotic enough to pull such a stunt then they would be only playing into the hands of the Government in the same way the psychoitic ILDA strike of 2000 played into the coffers of the road lobby.

All them years of acting the cod, and unofficial disputes and so many CIE staff being rude (not all of course some are proper professionals) to customers will truly come back to haunt you.

If CIE unions honestly think that the people of Ireland, the same people they dicked around for all there years are going to be marching in the streets beside them on their way to Leinster House, then CIE unions are even more deluded than most people thought.

shltter

Nostradamus wrote: »

If CIE workers go on strike the public support will be a big fat ZERO. If fact, the public resentment will come back in spades and if the NBRU and SIPTU were idiotic enough to pull such a stunt then they would be only playing into the hands of the Government in the same way the psychoitic ILDA strike of 2000 played into the coffers of the road lobby.

All them years of acting the cod, and unofficial disputes and so many CIE staff being rude (not all of course some are proper professionals) to customers will truly come back to haunt you.

If CIE unions honestly think that the people of Ireland, the same people they dicked around for all there years are going to be marching in the streets beside them on their way to Leinster House, then CIE unions are even more deluded than most people thought.

There will always be people who will support us and there will always be people who would never support us no matter what the issues were.

If we were to only engage in industrial action when we had public support then we would never do it.

As such I don't expect anybody to march with us it and I never have expected it.
Public support is all well and good but it wins nothing just as in Irish Ferries the workers still got shafted.

Those who think public support wins industrial disputes are the deluded ones.

BTW I have heard all this nonsense before under your previous guises here you are anti union anti CIE always have been always will be if you came on here and said we were right then I would have to re think my position.

markpb

Personally I think we're being typically lazy about this. The government is going to cut *our* bus service to make up for *their* mistakes. Right now the only people complaining are the unions, even if the reasoning is different. Who is going to stand up for us? I've contacted several ministers and politicians but none of them have bothered to reply.

shltter

aquascrotum wrote: »

I work in the private sector and have taken a 10% paycut and removal of overtime. My employers profits were up 15% on 2007. I wasn't consulted but I (along with 150 other staff) took it in the interests of keeping our jobs. 18 other staff were laid off. They weren't consulted either.

My girlfriend works in the private sector and has taken a 15% paycut, removal of overtime, 60% knocked off travel and subsistence rates. She wasn't consulted but took it because the alternative was the dole.

My landlord worked in the private sector and last week lost his job. He wasn't consulted either. Same for half a dozen people i went to college with, quite a few of my former colleagues, my cousin, etc etc etc.

So why do BE staff think that they need to be consulted on management decisions and why do they think the public are going to tolerate, never mind have sympathy, for them and their threat of strike action when redundancies are everywhere??

Because unlike you we are organised and support each other and we work for an employer that is supposed to be committed to partnership.

My job like most of the posters here from DB is not under threat from redundancy but I am prepared to engage in industrial action if DB tries to force redundancy on one grade.
If the company wants to withdraw buses and that means redundancy then as with all other grades it must be voluntary and there will be no shortage of people willing to take it up.

There are easily 150/200 drivers with less than 2 years left before they have to retire ( at which time DB will have to take on and train new staff to replace them) Some of them with over 45 years service those are the people who should be offered redundancy if they want it not forced on 160 people many with mortagages and young families who were enticed to leave jobs and come to DB in the last year.

shltter

markpb wrote: »

Personally I think we're being typically lazy about this. The government is going to cut *our* bus service to make up for *their* mistakes. Right now the only people complaining are the unions, even if the reasoning is different. Who is going to stand up for us? I've contacted several ministers and politicians but none of them have bothered to reply.

Actually the unions have condemned the removal of services as a socially retrograde step that will affect the most vulnerable in society.

But obviously the unions first priority is to defend its members.

Nostradamus

CIE unions blew it in terms of public sympathy with the Harristown Depot carry on, the MK 4 trains introduction, ILDA destroying railfreight etc. Private sector workers are not going to be leaving their desks in order to join any CIE march.

At some point the CIE Union mentality will have to come to terms with the reality that being worked up into a state of victimised hysteria within the CIE canteen does not reflect reality in the world outside.

shltter

Nostradamus wrote: »

CIE unions blew it in terms of public sympathy with the Harristown Depot carry on, the MK 4 trains introduction, ILDA destroying railfreight etc. Private sector workers are not going to be leaving their desks in order to join any CIE march.

At some point the CIE Union mentality will have to come to terms with the reality that being worked up into a state of victimised hysteria within the CIE canteen does not reflect reality in the world outside.

Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

Who is asking anyone to leave their desks and join a march CIE or otherwise.

ixoy

shltter wrote: »

Who is asking anyone to leave their desks and join a march CIE or otherwise.

Well nobody since they couldn't get to their work desks in the first place if CIE were on a march

invincibleirish

shltter wrote: »

Because unlike you we are organised and support each other and we work for an employer that is supposed to be committed to partnership.

My job like most of the posters here from DB is not under threat from redundancy but I am prepared to engage in industrial action if DB tries to force redundancy on one grade.
If the company wants to withdraw buses and that means redundancy then as with all other grades it must be voluntary and there will be no shortage of people willing to take it up.

There are easily 150/200 drivers with less than 2 years left before they have to retire ( at which time DB will have to take on and train new staff to replace them) Some of them with over 45 years service those are the people who should be offered redundancy if they want it not forced on 160 people many with mortagages and young families who were enticed to leave jobs and come to DB in the last year.

You clearly have not being paying attention to whats being happening outside the big bad world of union politics over the last 18 months. The country is broke, CIE are cost cutting on behalf of the Government, there is a gaping hole in the public finances yet here you are arguing for big fat redundancy payments for the lads that the taxpayer can ill afford to pay.

Whatever the rights and wrongs have been of Gov policy over the past 12 years(more wrongs imo) now is not the time to go engaging in industrial action to satisfy selfish ends. Strike action will just compound an already desperate national situation.

Plus there are almost certainly more cuts to come down the road over the next 12-24 months.

Nowso

They have INCREASED The number of buses going on the Rosslare to dublin and the airport massively last week !

Why ? Well theres competition in a local airport bus service.

Thats CIE ALL OVER

shltter

ixoy wrote: »

Well nobody since they couldn't get to their work desks in the first place if CIE were on a march

Good point ioxy although i am sure some people would make it to work but nobody is asking them to take part in any march anyway so it is a pointless discussion.

The truth is that overwhelming public support or disaproval neither wins nor loses an industrial dispute.

shltter

invincibleirish wrote: »

You clearly have not being paying attention to whats being happening outside the big bad world of union politics over the last 18 months. The country is broke, CIE are cost cutting on behalf of the Government, there is a gaping hole in the public finances yet here you are arguing for big fat redundancy payments for the lads that the taxpayer can ill afford to pay.

Whatever the rights and wrongs have been of Gov policy over the past 12 years(more wrongs imo) now is not the time to go engaging in industrial action to satisfy selfish ends. Strike action will just compound an already desperate national situation.

Plus there are almost certainly more cuts to come down the road over the next 12-24 months.

Iam fully aware of what is happening as iam fully aware of certain employers attempts to take advantage of the recession to try and force through a wish list they have had for a long time.

Just as some took advantage of the country in the good times they are now trying to take advantage of their workforce in the bad.

The argument is one of fairness voluntary redundancy is on offer to all other grades affected by the lay offs why should it not also apply to Drivers some of whom have over 45 years service and will soon retire anyway.

And the taxpayer will not be paying it anyway where is the money for the 130 other redundancies coming from.

ixoy

shltter wrote: »

The truth is that overwhelming public support or disaproval neither wins nor loses an industrial dispute.

As much as I loathe union actions, you're quite right about this. I was discussing this with my Dad last night and he recalled talking to a union leader in the '70s who shut down Dublin Port. My Dad asked him to justify these actions, which crippled the country, and the union leader basically said that management were always wrong (even when right) and all that mattered was the win.

shltter wrote: »

The argument is one of fairness voluntary redundancy is on offer to all other grades affected by the lay offs why should it not also apply to Drivers some of whom have over 45 years service and will soon retire anyway.

Let me be clear - no voluntary redundancy for any driver? Why can't they offer voluntary redundancy for drivers and, if they don't get enough, only then look at mandatory redundancy?

shltter

ixoy wrote: »

Let me be clear - no voluntary redundancy for any driver? Why can't they offer voluntary redundancy for drivers and, if they don't get enough, only then look at mandatory redundancy?

Not one all other grades clerical, supervisory, maintenance, support staff are voluntary.

Drivers mandatory anyone who started after march 1st 2008 is gone.

Unfair on those people who were enticed to leave other jobs with the promise of permanent pensionable employment with DB while DB knew they were in trouble. And obviously many would be younger with young families mortgages etc.
There would be no shortage of people who would love to go many with 45 or more years service but if they left today would have their pension reduced despite having paid into it for over 45 years in some cases.
So they are forcing people who would be happy to go to stay and those who need to stay to go.

alpha2zulu

Am the only one to find it ironic that all these public transport cuts are coming at a time when we have the greens in Government. Wasent public transport one of their key mantras?

cyclopath2001

alpha2zulu wrote: »

Am the only one to find it ironic that all these public transport cuts are coming at a time when we have the greens in Government. Wasent public transport one of their key mantras?

It may be ironic, but it's happening at a time when there are less customers and the public is howling for cuts in public services.

Mr. Croft

Hello,

I am really dependant on Dublin Bus to get to my 2 part time jobs, if they strike I don't know what would happen, its too far for me to walk and I need those jobs to survive.

Please don't strike on the working week.

Thanks

celt2005

aquascrotum wrote: »

I work in the private sector and have taken a 10% paycut and removal of overtime. My employers profits were up 15% on 2007. I wasn't consulted but I (along with 150 other staff) took it in the interests of keeping our jobs. 18 other staff were laid off. They weren't consulted either.

My girlfriend works in the private sector and has taken a 15% paycut, removal of overtime, 60% knocked off travel and subsistence rates. She wasn't consulted but took it because the alternative was the dole.

My landlord worked in the private sector and last week lost his job. He wasn't consulted either. Same for half a dozen people i went to college with, quite a few of my former colleagues, my cousin, etc etc etc.

So why do BE staff think that they need to be consulted on management decisions and why do they think the public are going to tolerate, never mind have sympathy, for them and their threat of strike action when redundancies are everywhere??

Whats your point ??? you and your girlfriend have taken paycuts, so Dublin Bus workers should as well .....