IT vs UNIVERSITY...men vs boys?

This is

when we look at two students,
ex one with almost a years experience in a government funded agency, a thesis published in a subject area relevant to the masters he wants in TCD and a 1:1 degree from ex, WIT

vs

a student who after loads of hard work and thousands spent in grinds by strict middle class parents finally gets 400 odd points in the leaving cert. he then goes to uni and fails 1st,2nd and third year but manages to pull a 2:1 from 4th year

should the university student be considered better?
should the university still insist the WIT student needs to have a uni degree?
why do universities have their heads stuck in their own arses when it comes to this?
should excellence not be regarded as compensation for lower points entry? or should it be said 'look if he was good enough he'd be in trinners' even though it could be a case of ex her/his little sister dying from cancer a month before the exams and decided not to be stubborn enough to repeat the L.C

tbh this post should be interesting...theirs a couple of ITs hot on the heels of the Universities, should we change our attitude?

kaimera

should we change our attitude?

what attitude?

This is

that university graduates are always considered to be more academic then IT graduates?

starn

This is wrote: »

that university graduates are always considered to be more academic then IT graduates?

Inferiority complex ??

Turbulent Bill

I've never, ever seen a prospectus for a postgrad that specified that the applicant needed a university degree. It's typically 2.1 or better honours degree in a relevant field - whether the degree came from an IT shouldn't make a difference. If the applicant only has an ordinary degree clearly that's a different story.

By the way, you're displaying as much prejudice about university undergrads as you feel IT grads are getting (or you're trolling). The vast majority of uni undergrads I've encountered worked incredibly hard to get where they are - their parents just kept a roof over their heads.

partyguinness

No contest here. The WIT student has the necessary qualifications but I dont see what the other guys family background has to do with it??

This is

well, apologies about the background reference... i suppose it was a bad way to go from one extreme to the other!

ignore it.

Rogueish

Unfortunately it is my (and only my) personal experience that this still happens.

I applied for a Masters degree in a VERY relevant area to my current work and qualification in a leading Irish University last year. I have a good degree, 6 years post grad experience in a relevant and parallel area and 3 years teaching experience in a third level institution, excellent references both academic and workwise. However when I made inquiries to my suitability for application to the course director my emails and inquiries were ignored.

So blithely I went on to make my application at a cost of ~€50-90. All relevant documentation put forward and I waited. I received a PHONECALL from the course director to tell me that I was not eligible for application, that they were only accepting applications from a certain degree course in the UK (this was not specified on their prospectus) and is against HETAC policy. They would not put any of this in writing and so far have ignored any further inquiries into the matter.

How's that for snobbery!

Lemming

Rogueish wrote: »

Unfortunately it is my (and only my) personal experience that this still happens.

I applied for a Masters degree in a VERY relevant area to my current work and qualification in a leading Irish University last year. I have a good degree, 6 years post grad experience in a relevant and parallel area and 3 years teaching experience in a third level institution, excellent references both academic and workwise. However when I made inquiries to my suitability for application to the course director my emails and inquiries were ignored.

So blithely I went on to make my application at a cost of ~€50-90. All relevant documentation put forward and I waited. I received a PHONECALL from the course director to tell me that I was not eligible for application, that they were only accepting applications from a certain degree course in the UK (this was not specified on their prospectus) and is against HETAC policy. They would not put any of this in writing and so far have ignored any further inquiries into the matter.

How's that for snobbery!

Education institutes fall under the FoI act if I recall, which may be a way to force their hand.

This is

thank you.

you've proved my point Rogueish.

this is particularly the case in funded projects where the post grads get paid. its snobbery of the highest and is 'jobs for our own' if ive ever seen it.

the horrible thing is that many IT departments are quite well funded when it comes to policy related projects... ex pilot projects.. and guess where the university graduates then go for a pHD or masters then? it seems they can go one way but we cant go the other.........

why?

Warmaster

@ Roguish: Why not phone them if they don't answer your emails?

@ OP: That's an interesting question, I have heard of some departments in universities around the country giving phds or research masters to most people in their final year before they even graduate just to get their postgrad positions filled fast! I can't stand stuff like that.

Climate Expert

Standards tend to be higher in Universities.

Its not always the case for an individual student.

A Primal Nut

This is wrote: »

that university graduates are always considered to be more academic then IT graduates?

Are you imagining this? Examples? Source? Know anyone who got rejected from doing a masters because they had an IT degree rather than a university degree? Coz I don't know anyone...I know plenty of people who went on to do masters or phds in trinity/dcu/ucd after getting a degree in DIT. In your examples, of course the first student would get preference. You really think the second one has a better chance? Of course a 1:1 in WIT is valued higher than a 2:1 in Uni.

In Engineering in particular, many companies value IT degrees before University degrees, because of more practicals, labs, etc.

Have you any examples of the snobbery you are talking about? Sounds bull**** to me

Thomas_S_Hunterson

The nature of a university is that it focuses on the academic as opposed to an IT which focuses on the practical.

There is no snobbery about it. It is a different type of education.

As such, people who have studied academically at an undergraduate level are more suited to going on to study it at a post-graduate level.

DJDC

For a practical/industrial masters, then the IT student deserves the same chance as any uni student. However for a research related MSc or PHd, the uni students are favoured due to the more academic nature of their degree. To prove this how many lecturer's in top ranking Irish/US/UK uni's have their undergraduates from ITs/Polytechnics.....almost none.

Svalbard

This is wrote: »

when we look at two students,
ex one with almost a years experience in a government funded agency, a thesis published in a subject area relevant to the masters he wants in TCD and a 1:1 degree from ex, WIT

vs

a student who after loads of hard work and thousands spent in grinds by strict middle class parents finally gets 400 odd points in the leaving cert. he then goes to uni and fails 1st,2nd and third year but manages to pull a 2:1 from 4th year

should the university student be considered better?
should the university still insist the WIT student needs to have a uni degree?
why do universities have their heads stuck in their own arses when it comes to this?
should excellence not be regarded as compensation for lower points entry? or should it be said 'look if he was good enough he'd be in trinners' even though it could be a case of ex her/his little sister dying from cancer a month before the exams and decided not to be stubborn enough to repeat the L.C

tbh this post should be interesting...theirs a couple of ITs hot on the heels of the Universities, should we change our attitude?

Of course the university student is better. He got more points, is better spoken, comes from a good family, is more worldly and civilised and is genetically superior (selective breeding and all). Of course we still need "Food Scientists"....

Not trying to be harsh but I know people who are doing simular courses to myselfs in IT's and they are out every night getting smashed,not going to lectures, getting simular results to myself and also seem to have alot more help from Lecturers etc whereas I have had to do my FYP basically on my own.

I think in University that all the work is left up to you to do whereas you are more looked after in an IT.

Red Alert

Svalbard wrote: »

snip

Banned for a week for trolling - read the charter next time.

randylonghorn

Rogueish wrote: »

So blithely I went on to make my application at a cost of ~€50-90. All relevant documentation put forward and I waited. I received a PHONECALL from the course director to tell me that I was not eligible for application, that they were only accepting applications from a certain degree course in the UK (this was not specified on their prospectus) and is against HETAC policy. They would not put any of this in writing and so far have ignored any further inquiries into the matter.

How's that for snobbery!

You're joking?! I hope you are, but I have this horrible feeling ...

I've encountered course directors displaying mild bias before (usually towards their own students or those of their alma mater) but that's ridiculous. I would suggest writing formally to the Registrar of the college stating your case and asking for an investigation.

Even if you have no clear evidence of the phonecall, if the department has been taking entrants solely or predominantly from one college / course, the application records will show it.

Turbulent Bill

randylonghorn wrote: »

You're joking?! I hope you are, but I have this horrible feeling ...

I've encountered course directors displaying mild bias before (usually towards their own students or those of their alma mater) but that's ridiculous. I would suggest writing formally to the Registrar of the college stating your case and asking for an investigation.

Even if you have no clear evidence of the phonecall, if the department has been taking entrants solely or predominantly from one college / course, the application records will show it.

+1, I'd suggest writing a letter to the head of admissions in the university and copying HETAC - as far as I know they're then obliged to respond in writing. If you don't get any satisfaction I'd then go to more senior levels.

By the way, this issue has nothing to do with discrimination against ITs - the course director was favouring applicants from a particular UK degree programme, so presumably applicants from any other course (IT or uni) were being equally shafted.

Turbulent Bill

DJDC wrote: »

For a practical/industrial masters, then the IT student deserves the same chance as any uni student. However for a research related MSc or PHd, the uni students are favoured due to the more academic nature of their degree. To prove this how many lecturer's in top ranking Irish/US/UK uni's have their undergraduates from ITs/Polytechnics.....almost none.

Where you get the degree shouldn't make a difference - once the degrees are at the same NFQ level then they should be treated equally. Postgrads are as much about project management and data collection as academic brilliance - IT grads tend to have greater amounts of project work during their courses and more hands-on experience. I'm from a uni background, but I can't say I ever noticed differences in postgrads realting to where they did their undergrad.

The fact that lecturers in top institutions don't come from ITs says more about the institutions' recruitment policies rather than the quality of the applicants - that's much more a closed shop than postgrad entry.

graduate

The fact that lecturers in top institutions don't come from ITs says more about the institutions' recruitment policies rather than the quality of the applicants - that's much more a closed shop than postgrad entry.

Recruitment to a lecturing position in a top institution would be determined by your PhD and your publication record, your undergraduate degree wouldn't have much to do with it. Indeed study at any Irish institution wouldn't cut much ice.

DJDC

Where you get the degree shouldn't make a difference - once the degrees are at the same NFQ level then they should be treated equally

Nonsense. So an undergrad engineering degree from MIT is the same as one from Letterkenny IT.The standard of entrants is a big determinant of the difficulty of a course because most courses are graded using a Normal distribution with a mean around 60%. Just compare the exam papers from an IT to one for a university and you'll see the difference.

Turbulent Bill

graduate wrote: »

Recruitment to a lecturing position in a top institution would be determined by your PhD and your publication record, your undergraduate degree wouldn't have much to do with it. Indeed study at any Irish institution wouldn't cut much ice.

That's the case now, but in the recent past it was very much an old boys' club, hence lecturers were recruited internally or from a limited number of universities. With the increase in IT graduates doing postgrads and more transparent recruitment policies I think we'll see increasing numbers of lecturers with IT undergrad degrees.

I agree that lecturing recruitment should be based on your PhD and publications, as well as teaching skills.

CDfm

based on this - I would probably go with the ex WIT guy if I wanted a safe pair of hands.

For energy the UNI guy - but it would be very close

I would say - technical ability -would swing it as experience does count for an awful lot

Turbulent Bill

DJDC wrote: »

Nonsense. So an undergrad engineering degree from MIT is the same as one from Letterkenny IT.The standard of entrants is a big determinant of the difficulty of a course because most courses are graded using a Normal distribution with a mean around 60%. Just compare the exam papers from an IT to one for a university and you'll see the difference.

That's a ridiculous comparison - the only thing they have in common is two letters, and clearly an MIT degree will be more sought after than one from any Irish institution (including unis).

My point is that, on a national level, the NFQ is the only objective way to compare degrees from two different institutions - the course content is often too different to compare. For professional degrees, the course should be accredited by the relevant national body.

Ostrom

http://www.irchss.ie/awards/scheme01.html

JDLK

Im not sure if your postgrad was business related, but if it is then they tend to view academic results as merely an indicator of your ability to pass the exams. In some business school programmes you dont even need an undergraduate degree if you can prove your career experience is significant. CAO points are irrelevant at business postgrad application stage and rarely asked for.

The selection for undergrad school is based purely on your leaving cert points whereas postgrad school is based on the whole package. You achieved a 1.1 which is excellent and you should be proud but you should also examine other area's which may be lacking such as career experience, achievements, social activity, professional association memberships, experience of foreign cultures etc

Business schools have a vested interest in selecting students who will not only be successful in the course but also in their future careers/life as this helps build the reputation and profile of the school. The school will also be interested in what you offer other students as most of the projects will be team based.

dml

It really shows a poor understanding of the 3rd level education system in general to think you can make sweeping statements like ITs are better than universities, or the other way around. It largely depends on the reputation of the course in a particular area at an specific IT/university - a 3rd level inst can be regarded as brilliant for one area and mediocre for another - this applies both to teaching and research and for the latter often applies to sub-specialities within a subject (e.g. different areas of Physics or Chemistry). It all depends on what the employer is looking for...and the reputation of the course at the time of qualification (e.g. may have been regarded as a good course in 1990, but not in 2009).
The main reason that there are not too many lecturers with IT degrees is that IT degrees have not been around as long as university ones have, this is particularly true of postgraduate qualifications. It takes time to get a full-time lecturing position. So, an institute obtaining independent degree-awarding powers in 1996, now has a graduate of that course aged approx. 35yrs, which is still relatively young compared to older colleagues. So, give it time....IT qualifications will be featuring more and more strongly as the years go by.
In some ITs, the rapid increases in no.'s of postgrads (funded by private enterprise/govt funding/etc.) reflects the faith that companies funding these have placed in the IT system, and the quality of the work undertaken there. It is not only companies, but also academic institutions that regard some of the research in ITs as being of good quality, e.g. I know of a Science PhD who started work at Oxford University within 2 weeks of graduating from an IT. Also, ITs in Ireland are starting to get Fullbright Scholars as research visitors.
My undergrad degree in a university one. As is my research Master's degree. My PhD is from an IT...

Rogueish

As I said before I am only speaking about my personal experience.

The masters I am on about is a taught masters in a VERY practical area. Therefore 6 years postgraduate experience in a parallel profession should be considered. Especially when my undergraduate modules would have been carried on to a postgraduate level in this course. My undergraduate modules are more closely related to the masters than those of the 'accepted' uk course.

Trying to get either of the course directors on the phone consisted of a professional game of phone tag!

The masters program in question is one which I am very interested in doing in the future and there is a part of me that really does not want to rock the boat too much.

Red Alert

Guys, I'm one step off closing this thread. Any more trolling will get further bans!

This is

tbh i wasnt expecting the amount of replies i got on this subject. most of them were really helpful and gave me a good picture in terms of what i should expect if I were in the situation i explained.

as for the trolling... well there could only be one reason for that!!

dyl10

as for the trolling... well there could only be one reason for that!!

r3nu4l

Rogueish wrote: »

Unfortunately it is my (and only my) personal experience that this still happens.

I...that they were only accepting applications from a certain degree course in the UK (this was not specified on their prospectus) and is against HETAC policy. They would not put any of this in writing and so far have ignored any further inquiries into the matter.

How's that for snobbery!

This is wrote: »

thank you.

you've proved my point Rogueish.

No, he hasn't, your point was that an IT seems to be considered inferior to a University degree. His point is that both the Irish IT and University degree were considered inferior to the UK degree.

So his point backs the view that the IT and Uni in Ireland are considered the same.

Sean_K wrote: »

As such, people who have studied academically at an undergraduate level are more suited to going on to study it at a post-graduate level.

For some courses yes, but not all. If you do a degree in science in an IT or Uni and then want to pursue a research PhD then it makes no difference what type institute you went to, the PhD is mostly practical work surrounded by reading on the subject are.

The only people I've encountered this 'Uni better than IT' snobbery in are undergraduate students tbh and a very few University lecturers, not many. I personally know one lecturer in NUIM who did his degree in Waterford IT.