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Solicitor charges for apartment purchase

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  • 19-01-2009 6:52pm
    #1
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭


    When I was looking for a solicitor I rang around a few places and was getting quotes of around €1250+vat. I rang a solicitor I had used before and was local and they quoted me a similar figure over the phone so I decided to go with them since they were local.

    The property purchase was completed and now the solicitor is asking for over €3800 . They are saying this was their standard fee and that they have no record of giving me a quote. I never received anything in writing from them. I got the quote over the phone in Novemember.

    I though I was going mad so I rang another solicitor today to see what they charge and I was quoted what I expect around €1400 incl VAT.

    I don't really know what to do here. Does this sound wrong to people? That's nearly 3 times what I expected to pay. There was nothing unusual about the sale - standard purchase.


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    #2
    dazza21ie
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭dazza21ie


    You should have got a section 68 letter detailing the likely legal fees and outlays when the transaction first started. If you didn't then the solicitor could be reported to the Law Society.


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    #3
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jeffmcg


    I got nothing from them at all. Like I said just got a quote over the phone.


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    #4
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    Check the breakdown of the bill and see how much his actual "fee" is and how much is composed of fixed outlays he/she would have incurred, eg. search fees and registration fees etc. etc. His original quote would only have been for his billable hours and the rest should be fixed outlays. Might still not account for the difference though!


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    #5
    stepinnman
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭stepinnman


    dazza21ie wrote: »
    You should have got a section 68 letter detailing the likely legal fees and outlays when the transaction first started. If you didn't then the solicitor could be reported to the Law Society.

    dazza21ie's right - you should have got a Section 68 Letter. The Solicitor is obliged to provide one. There's no reason why a standard transfer of an apartment should cost anything even close to that figure - no matter what the complications might or might not have been. Even with Stamp Duty, Land Reg or Registry of Deeds fees the most you should be looking at is €1700 - €2000 for everything - and that would be the upper end of the scale.


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    #6
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,535 ✭✭✭maidhc


    stepinnman wrote: »
    Even with Stamp Duty, Land Reg or Registry of Deeds fees the most you should be looking at is €1700 - €2000 for everything - and that would be the upper end of the scale.

    Stamp duty will never come within a solicitors bill, and it should be lodged before the sale closes, and will generally be many multiples of the bill if the house is chargable at all.

    But a "normal" bill for an apt would be, maybe

    1300+VAT professional fee
    +
    100 for searches
    +
    200-800 registration fee (apartments will be at the lower end)

    You are fully entitled to dispute a fee, go for it if you feel hard done by.


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    #7
    stepinnman
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭stepinnman


    maidhc wrote: »
    Stamp duty will never come within a solicitors bill, and it should be lodged before the sale closes, and will generally be many multiples of the bill if the house is chargable at all.

    But a "normal" bill for an apt would be, maybe

    1300+VAT professional fee
    +
    100 for searches
    +
    200-800 registration fee (apartments will be at the lower end)

    You are fully entitled to dispute a fee, go for it if you feel hard done by.

    Lest I be accused of ignorance here I'm aware that stamp duty in the sense of the duty owed on the House doesn't come within the bill - I was referring to Stamp Duty in the sense of the duty stamped on the deeds!

    Anyway, I think we're all agreed that the max you should be paying is €2k and it really should be coming in lower than that


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    #8
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jeffmcg


    There was no stamp duty it was a new apartment at only 70sq meters.


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    #9
    egan007
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭egan007


    jeffmcg wrote: »
    There was no stamp duty it was a new apartment at only 70sq meters.

    There is still stamp duty on the transaction, not on the property, it's only a small fee anyway.

    What would i do?

    Write a cheque for the original amount with a letter saying something like - enclosed is the agreed amount etc...

    A solicitor knows that a verbal contract is a contract it's not that verbal contracts are unbinding, it's that they are harder to prove. Call his bluff, the worst he can do is demand the rest wait 2 years for a court case then settle for the remaining amount.......his own medicine

    You employ him.


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    #10
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jeffmcg


    i wish I could do that. they took their fee out at source. I initially thought the extra charge was towards the management fee for the apartment, that was until I got a letter last week from the management company looking for their fee


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    #11
    egan007
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭egan007


    Send a letter demanding it back, then contact the Law Society.


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    #12
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jeffmcg


    Thanks, they'll be ringing me today. If I have no joy I'll talk with another solicitor and get legal advice.

    Thanks for your guidence


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    #13
    dats_right
    Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭dats_right


    stepinnman wrote: »
    Lest I be accused of ignorance here I'm aware that stamp duty in the sense of the duty owed on the House doesn't come within the bill - I was referring to Stamp Duty in the sense of the duty stamped on the deeds!

    Stamp duty is different from other taxes in that it applies to instruments (eg. the Deed) rather than the transaction. Meaning that there isn't any other kind of stamp duty when referring to a property purchase! So whether you are buying a property for €50,000,000 or €200,000 the only stamp duty payable is that which is marked/stamped on the Deed of Transfer/Conveyance/Lease/Assignment.

    Anyway, I don't necessarily agree that the max the OP should be paying is €2,000 because there are far too many variables that could affect both the professional fee or outlay, like did the OP pull out of other purchases where the solicitor had read the titles and/or raised pre-contract queries? Was there a co-ownership agreement required/declaration of trust? was there defects/problems with the title that needed to be resolved? Did the solicitor draft wills? Was there multiple mortgage offers issued? etc, etc.

    Sure even at 1250+Vat the professional fee is 1518.75 exclusive of outlay. Say the property is Land Registry and involves opening a new leasehold folio: €85 (open new folio), €25 (copy folio and file plan, €125 (to register mortgage), €125 (additionally to register burden if affordable home), possibly town agent fees circa €50, Commissioner for Oaths circa €50.00, searches €100-150 and if closing had fallen through and was delayed it is possible that a second set of searches were required. And if for whatever reason the Revenue would not accept the property being as new, well then as first time buyer they would still be exempt from stamp duty, but it is possible that Registration fees would increase to €625 (if consideration over 385k), €125 mortgage, possibly €125 if affordable home, €25 copy folio and file plan.

    On the face of it we might think that the fees involved are excessive or on the high side, but the bottom line is we don't know whether this is the case as we don't have the full facts or even a detailed breakdown of the costs.


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    #14
    jeffmcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jeffmcg


    Well I don't know what extra charges were applied and if there were extra charges (e.g. increased registration fees) then I should have been informed, no?

    I wasn't given any indication (other then the quotation over the phone, which I thought was good enough) of the costs involved and 2 months since closing I haven't received anything from the solicitor to show a breakdown of their charges.

    Also this is a new property.


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    #15
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    dazza21ie wrote: »
    You should have got a section 68 letter detailing the likely legal fees and outlays when the transaction first started. If you didn't then the solicitor could be reported to the Law Society.

    S. 68 doesn't matter, it's been held that solicitor should provide one, but it's not a bar on recovering fees if he or she doesn't provide one.


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    #16
    dazza21ie
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭dazza21ie


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    S. 68 doesn't matter, it's been held that solicitor should provide one, but it's not a bar on recovering fees if he or she doesn't provide one.

    Section 68 does matter. I have seen it where a client has complained about a very reasonable bill. The Law Society reduced the bill by 20% (professional fee) due to the lack of a Section 68 letter even though they agreed the bill was very reasonable in the circumstances.


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    #17
    TheDemiurge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭TheDemiurge


    dazza21ie wrote: »
    Section 68 does matter. I have seen it where a client has complained about a very reasonable bill. The Law Society reduced the bill by 20% (professional fee) due to the lack of a Section 68 letter even though they agreed the bill was very reasonable in the circumstances.

    Amazo is right - section 68 does not matter for contract purposes. Pearts(I think) successfully sued a client who tried to dodge paying a bill because the section 68 wasn't furnished. It's a Disciplinary matter to be referred separately to the Law Society or Disciplinary Tribunal. There is still a contract for fees and outlays between the solicitor and the client.

    The OP's question sounds exactly like his management fee has been included in the bill. I did a quick tot on all fees, outlays and VAT as would be compiled and it comes to 2365 Euro based on a 1250 Euro fee. Add approx 1500 Euro which is standard management fee and you come in at what the OP is being asked for.

    The OP says he's being quoted 1400 Euro plus VAT from another solicitor; no disrespect to the OP and I mean that but when I was an apprentice ten years ago we never had to explain the difference - or even an apparent difference - between a quote that was exclusive of outlays and one that was inclusive of them; now you have to do it every day.

    Fighting with clients over your fee is one thing; fighting over compulsory government outlays is another. The PRAI don't make your life any easier when someone compares his bill with his mates and sees a registration fee of 85 Euro on one bill yet his could be up to 710 Euro.


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    #18
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    dazza21ie wrote: »
    Section 68 does matter. I have seen it where a client has complained about a very reasonable bill. The Law Society reduced the bill by 20% (professional fee) due to the lack of a Section 68 letter even though they agreed the bill was very reasonable in the circumstances.

    Don't shoot the messenger, the small blue book you were given in blackhall outlining Ethics in the profession lists two cases where a s. 68 wasn't held as a bar to the recovery of fees. It should be sent, but it's not the be all and end all.


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    #19
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,535 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Don't shoot the messenger, the small blue book you were given in blackhall outlining Ethics in the profession lists two cases where a s. 68 wasn't held as a bar to the recovery of fees. It should be sent, but it's not the be all and end all.

    The owners of Blarney Castle tried to pull that trick, didn't work in the end.
    http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2003/74.html


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