drum replacement and enhnacing

i57dwun4yb1pt8

anyone doing this ?

is it best to ( say using the acoustic kick track )

1. use something like drum trigger on a copied audio track and assign a sample


or

2/ convert an audio track copy to midi and use that to fire a sample ?

( say using DRUMTRACKER )

DamagedTrax

use drumagog sometimes if the recording isnt up to scratch but i'd rather stay away from it and keep the original drums as much as possible.

a subtle blend can often add i nice bit of weight behind a kit though.

progsound

It depends on what you want but i use aptrigga for all my sample replacement/reinforcement and can recommend it. Just put it on the track you want to replace/reinforce and mess with the threshold untill it triggers properly it also alows you to mix in the loaded samples so you can just beef up the existing track or completely replace it as required. There is also lots of other features that im not going to get into but for me it has everything i need and cheaper than drumagog.

trackmixstudio

I use Ddrum pro triggers and just record them to their own tracks.
You don't need a module, you just plug them into (XLR) mic pres.
Then I use aptrigga to fire samples from the recorded "clicks" from the triggers. This works GREAT and gives perfect tracking even on snare and tom rolls. I used to have problems with mistriggering when I used the recorded signal from the drum mics to fire samples especially on tom rolls and fast snare rolls. With the Ddrums I can limit the hell out of the trigger tracks and get a very consistent sound.

PaulBrewer

Having spent quite a while experimenting with this and having spoken to many about it (Bob Clearmountain, Cenzo Townshend, Mick Glossop, Greg Haver, Andy Gill) the general consensus is that it's for emergencies ( the original isn't good enough) or special occasions (mixing electronic with acoustic for example) rather than a normal Modus Operandi.

We bought Drumagog and whilst it is brilliant at triggering we found it gives a faint whiff of unnaturalness to the proceedings.

However, if you're stuck, it's deadly.

Neither example of triggering you gave was preferred, but just use it's own triggering.

Jimbo808

Yea I agree. with Paul, it really should be used as a last resort. It's not essentially a studio tool, more a mix rescue aid!

In my experience I've had much more results from chopping my drums parts. I edit ALOT post tracking and have found that I will rarely leave the drums untouched. Rhythm is so key to the feel of tracks that it has to be perfect, even for "live feel" tracks.

Mainly I push all clientelle to work to a grid. It's just how I do it, some people agree, some don't. What are everyone elses thoughts on this? (I know the OP was about sound replacement but I think even if you play the wrong note and it's in time, it'll work!! )

J*808

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ok, thanks for the tips . makes sense.

i do prefer the real thing , but i wanted to add some "life" or "air" to my real drum tracks - cos they are tracked in a totally dead room .

i manage to get a demo of drumtracker and ez drummer working .

so what im doing is making midi files of copys of the snare and kick wav tracks .
assinging these to midi tracks assigned to samples in easy drummer , and blending them under the real drums , not too much, but enough to add the missing liveliness / transient sparkle / air of tracking in a real room instad of a totally dead room .

i might try the toms as well, but these arent as dry sounding in my tracks .

so its about 15% of the total drum sound - seems to work nice so far.

but if any one knows how to assign a one shot sample to a midi track in cubase let me know if you can , cos id rather not use ez drummer .

studiorat

I find if you fix a few suspect bars here and there the drums sound better anyway.

I don't usually replace drums, not if I've recorded them anyway!:D

I'll broadcast them to a speaker sitting on a drum and run them through amps or distortion pedals. Very seldom replace the actual sound. I tried Drum-a-gog, it worked but didn't do much for me I'm afraid then again maybe they were beyond repair. Maybe I'll try again.

ZV Yoda

studiorat wrote: »

I'll broadcast them to a speaker sitting on a drum and run them through amps or distortion pedals.

Hi Studiorat... sounds interesting... can you elaborate on how this works & what it does for the sound?.. I'm in a similar boat to DaDumTish in that I have a project studio (primarily for acoustics drums, but increasingly also for tracking guitars & vox).

I'm interested in any ways to improve the sound, but really don't want to get into triggers/sound replacement if possible.

Thanks

trackmixstudio

Most modern recordings, except jazz, will have samples mixed with the live kit.
The trick is to get a natural sound. I have found the best way to do this is to get the drummer to give you 6 hits of each shell when you are finished tracking drums then fire these randomly under the live kit to get more attack.
Also these samples are great for reverb sends because they are clean.
For metal though the triggers will usually be a totally different sound from the live kicks which are 50-100% replaced with the snare/toms 20-50% replaced.

Jimbo808

Just a quick suggestion but Parallel Compression is also something to consider.

J*808

P.S. Also one MAJOR studio tool is the transient designer. As with Parallel Compression I can't stress enough how much this
will add to your drum sound when used correctly.

studiorat

Big Up for the Transient Designer. Great on room mics.
And sticking the whole kit through a sub-mix with a huge compressor is a good trick too.

The broadcasting thing involves sitting a speaker either slightly above or on a snare drum and sticking a mic on the bottom. It adds a really good thump to the drum sound.

Most importantly though is that the kit is set up properly in the first place.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Most modern recordings, except jazz, will have samples mixed with the live kit.

This hasn't been my experience, or of those I've spoken to.

progsound

It depends on the genre i would say that 95% of modern metal drum recordings have some form of sample replacement/reinforcement going on.

PaulBrewer

progsound wrote: »

It depends on the genre i would say that 95% of modern metal drum recordings have some form of sample replacement/reinforcement going on.

Interesting, why is that do you think?

ogy

but i wanted to add some "life" or "air" to my real drum tracks - cos they are tracked in a totally dead room .

surely convolution reverb is the answer?

anders

studiorat wrote: »

Big Up for the Transient Designer. Great on room mics.
And sticking the whole kit through a sub-mix with a huge compressor is a good trick too.

The broadcasting thing involves sitting a speaker either slightly above or on a snare drum and sticking a mic on the bottom. It adds a really good thump to the drum sound.

Most importantly though is that the kit is set up properly in the first place.

There's a good free transient designer plug Flux Bitter Sweet 2 which is quite nice.

As studiorat mentioned. The drum setup and source sound is still the most important thing. Spend even 10 minutes more setting up and it might save you hours of work later on...

i do prefer the real thing , but i wanted to add some "life" or "air" to my real drum tracks - cos they are tracked in a totally dead room .

This seemes rather odd to me but then again I haven't tracked drums in a small dead room. If I use samples it's to make the sound more focused and to get a punch and weight to them that I didn't manage to capture live. When I run in to problems with my source sounds it would mostly be because there's a bit too much room in my close mics...

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

surely convolution reverb is the answer?

That's a good suggestion Ogy. If we're after a big room sound what we do is make a group of the complete drum mix and record that to 2 tracks (sometimes without hats/cymbals) and feed that mix to a Con. Verb and treat it exactly as if it was a far off pair of room mics.

You can hear the effect on that first Evora track 'Painted on my wall' on our My Space.

We use that Pro-Tools Verb by Trillium Labs (or whaever they're called)

progsound

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Interesting, why is that do you think?

Well the music has a lot to do with it that and the expectations of the people listening to the music. If you listen to any modern metal you will find there is a lot going on in the mix and it is hard to keep the original drum sounds intact (mostly kick) because of the complexity/temp requirements of the music i.e. playing 16th note kick patterns at 200bpm the dynamics become a little uneven. This is where sample reinforcement/replacement is used to give a more consistant and "clean" sound that is better suited to a dense metal mix.

I typicaly just replace the kick 100% and try to keep the snare original although i struggle here and usualy end up reinforcing it with some samples i would never replace though getting the dynamics right would be to much hastle without converting it to midi.

I could go on as i dont feel i have explained myself correctly but i may get some work done here if i wana keep the oul job. Check out some stuff by andy sneap for that typical Polished modern metal drum sound.

studiorat

ogy wrote: »

surely convolution reverb is the answer?

Maybe if you wanted a really natural hall sound or something and had the kit just on it's own. However in a mix situation I find that I use non-linear 'verbs, reverses, early refections, rooms and similar to bring forward elements of the kit into the mix. Basically reverbs that on their own sound absolutely un-natural, but in context sound right.

As an outboard device I find myself constantly returning to the AMS RMX 16. A 20year old 16 bit reverb.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

you see there is no room in any mics , including overheads - the room is so dead .

so I dont get the transient splash back / bite you get in a live room ,

ie they sound more like fleetwood mac drums - dead and focussed
i like this but i want it with a bit of bite to it.

the reverbs dont provide this liveliness - ive tried this already .

its hard to explain , its a kind of real life "presence" that I am missing in this room
adding a low level sample seems to bring it in without having to radically eq each track.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

you see there is no room in any mics , including overheads - the room is so dead .

so I dont get the transient splash back / bite you get in a live room ,

ie they sound more like fleetwood mac drums - dead and focussed
i like this but i want it with a bit of bite to it.

the reverbs dont provide this liveliness - ive tried this already .

its hard to explain , its a kind of real life "presence" that I am missing in this room
adding a low level sample seems to bring it in without having to radically eq each track.

Another important element ESPECIALLY with drums is mic pres and A2Ds. The 'Air' element is the first thing to go.

trackmixstudio

Here is something you could try.
1. Send the shells to a bus.
2. Gate then heavily compress the bus.
3. Put a REALLY short IR verb on the bus at 100% wet than send this bus to a bus with the overheads.

Treat this bus as your overheads and it will sound more like a bigger liver room. Compress with medium attack and fast release then pull out a bit of low mid to let the close mics of the shells come through.

In suggesting this I am presuming you are not using PT LE because you will end up with a phasey mess due to the lack of plugin delay compensation.

You could also "fabricate" a room mic by sending your new overhead bus to another bus then delaying at 100% wet zero feedback a few ms (making sure you are in phase) then low passing at about 8K and pushing the mids a bit at about 500Hz wide band then mixing in a medium room IR reverb then squashing the whole thing to hell with a limiter. Push this bus under the kit to taste.

If I am mixing something recorded elsewhere and the overheads are dead this method normally works wonders in bringing the kit to life.

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Having spent quite a while experimenting with this and having spoken to many about it (Bob Clearmountain, Cenzo Townshend, Mick Glossop, Greg Haver, Andy Gill) the general consensus is that it's for emergencies ( the original isn't good enough) or special occasions (mixing electronic with acoustic for example) rather than a normal Modus Operandi.

We bought Drumagog and whilst it is brilliant at triggering we found it gives a faint whiff of unnaturalness to the proceedings.

However, if you're stuck, it's deadly.

Neither example of triggering you gave was preferred, but just use it's own triggering.

I would imagine that using Drumagog with one of the BFD producer packs (Joe Barresi, Andy Johns) would be pretty good. The Joe Barresi drums were all tracked to 2" tape through an 80 series Neve console, and sound very fine, and are a vast step up from the regular kits that come with BFD.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ive just started demoing drumagog and its the b0ll0x , very impressive.

it just adds that polish to raw drum mix .

great tool for the home recorder i must say

i think i may get this and the stephen slate sample pack .

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

ive just started demoing drumagog and its the b0ll0x , very impressive.

it just adds that polish to raw drum mix .

great tool for the home recorder i must say

i think i may get this and the stephen slate sample pack .

10 out of 10 for useability and triggering