Law In Trinity

eVeNtInE

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Thirdfox

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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-Is the stuff monotonously boring? I know that lecture hours are short but the amount of stuff you have to read takes up a large length of your time and I was just wondering whether I'll be bored out of my tree reading the stuff if I do do law.

Well, do you like reading lot's of cases about property and contracts? Most of the cases are interesting if you find the law interesting "if I were to lie naked in my back garden would I have a right to expect privacy?" "homosexual butt sex - legal or illegal?" etc. You'll have the dry 100 page judgment case every once in a while...but from what I've seen many people don't read all the cases and do fine (1st year I read everything, 2nd year not so).

- I know you have to do exams in King's Inn/Blackhall once you finish your degree. Does the degree set you up to do these exams or do you have to do much more additional word after you've finished the degree in order to pass your exams?

No idea - I should probably look into that, I'm guessing that they obviously help, but I think coming to law school in TCD as opposed to Griffith's (which I hear has absolutely brilliant FE1 notes etc.) is that you get to bask in the glory of your professors (I kinda mean that) - some of these people have changed our constitution through court battles and the experience you get from interacting with them (and your fellow bright law scholars) are why it's better to learn law at TCD as opposed to just reading it from a book (which I believe you will get the basics of law down just as well). I think everyone will be taking prep courses for the exams (even if just because the law will have changed since you took Constitutional law 4 years ago).

As for the glory of our US professors right now - we have distinguished people who stand up and represent the US at the UN or other really important international arenas. There's another professor who recently took a 400 million dollar case between two companies... sure, the book you read is probably the same in Harvard as it is in Nebraska Community College (I have no idea if that exists and if it does I have no intention of looking down on it) but the difference is that that little extra your teacher will give to you. I think the same applies between TCD and say Portobello (again no offence meant to those studying in Porto).

- What's it like as a Law student in Trinity? Are the facilities good, does it take up a lot of your time, etc.

I think the general principle (and this may apply to uni in general) is - do 20% of the work for 80% of the grades... but that last 20% of the grade is going to take 80% of your time. You can do the recommended 35 hours of library work a week if you wish (I did for first year). Or not touch your notes until 9 hours before the exam (did that too)... the difference (for me) was quite small (which may mean that my library work wasn't done properly).

I've now studied in 3 different law schools (1st year TCD, took one year out - went to Peking Uni (best law school in China), 2nd year TCD, 3rd year in Emory Uni (top 22 law school in US)) So I feel like I can give a comparison of TCD against the rest:

The staff are great - they are helpful and want you to succeed.

The facilities... as compared to China and US... I can see why Emory is worth 6.7 billion dollars in endowments let's just say. That's not a criticism of Trinity per say - but that Ireland in general on the facilities front can't compete against others much more better funded schools. The Times Higher Education Survey still ranks us above either of those schools though (though it only ranks the Uni as a whole and not individual faculties). But comparing to other colleges in Ireland I'd like to think we come up top with our library service. Our new gym is nice too (though I daresay Limerick/UCDD might win on the sporting front).

The students - again, everyone is at least a 545 from the LC so we're not dumb. There can be some really *stupid* people who will hide books/rip out pages/mark out stuff so that other students can't "get a leg up" as it were over them (if I ever catch anyone doing that...) I don't know if UCDD etc. have the same problem or not. The classes are around 110 in size (once the law and languages students are counted in) so big enough that you're not locked into a tiny group and small enough that you should know most of the people in your class. I like it.

Overall: ...I'm coming from the viewpoint of a medical school reject so law wasn't my childhood dream or anything. Do I still have regrets about not doing medicine? Sure. But I do know that studying in TCD (and those 2 other colleges) has been a fantastic experience, and I've enjoyed almost every single minute of it.

Do try and go for Erasmus in 3rd year (I'm writing from Atlanta right now) - it's a fantastic experience and you'll end up doing things/subjects that simply aren't offered in any university in Ireland (I'm taking a field placement with a legal aid office right now for example).

And one word of warning - the legal profession itself is in quite a bit of trouble. (We have a legal discussion forum on boards.ie too) Hopefully you're not one of the naive people who think that once we qualify as a barrister/solicitor we'll be printing money... Solicitors' main income seem to often be conveyancing (property) and you know how that is going right now. And insurance for malpractice has shot up as a result of those infamous cases of the lawyers who ran off with the money... Firms are letting people go (people that you'll be competing against for new positions once they open up)... on the other hand, you'll just be entering law now... in 4 years time Ireland may be on the recovery path again. But just something to think about (this profession won't pay well for many - indeed I may not end up being a lawyer at all). And if you want to be a barrister - I was told by friends, prepare to have your family/spouse support you for up to 10 years while you make a name for yourself... then you might start bringing in the big bucks, if you're good of course

Or try coming to the US to work (I know people who are going to be paid 160,000 dollars as a 1st year associate at a big law firm) 160,000! Suffice it to say, we will never see anything like that in Ireland. I thought our contracts usually get around 24-32,000 a year...and you may be let go once your training contract ends.

I know the above was unasked for advice about the legal profession (and I hope you won't think that I'm trying to scare you away from the profession because I want a bigger slice of the pie or anything ) but make sure you're entering law for the right reasons.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Thirdfox

And not to spoil your surprise case for the first class of TCD law (I don't know if they still do this for newbies) but here's the first case we got to read anyway:
R v. Dudley & Stephens
http://www.justis.com/titles/iclr_bqb14040.html
(hopefully you can open that page if not then just wiki it - not as interesting as reading the whole thing though)

Oh and not to insult your intelligence or anything, but for actual law school, wikipedia is not a valid source of research

evercloserunion

Hi, I'm in my second year studying law in Trinity.

-Is the stuff monotonously boring? I know that lecture hours are short but the amount of stuff you have to read takes up a large length of your time and I was just wondering whether I'll be bored out of my tree reading the stuff if I do do law.

Any subject has the potential to be monotonously boring or absolutely fascinating. The thing about law is that it is sub-divided into many other subjects many of which are quite different and some of which are more interesting than others.

They ease you in slowly; the four subjects you do in first year are quite interesting. Three of them--criminal, constitutional and legal systems & methods--are very heavy with moral and philosophical arguments about the basis of law to complement the more practical side of things. Tort, in my experience, was less philosophical and more practical, but still quite interesting as it covers a lot of different kinds of conflicts between individuals.

Second year is when you get into some of the heavier topics. Land law is notorious. It is very complex and difficult to wrap your head around. Some people also say it is very boring but I find it interesting, and though it is difficult it is a challenge I enjoy. Constitutional law II is divided into two different sections, administrative law and fundamental rights. Fundamental rights is very interesting and goes back to the moral and philosophical arguments of first year. But administrative law is *awful*. The whole thing is about procedure and not any kind of substantive law so it's intolerably boring. On top of that it can be quite confusing, mainly because the courts are full of sh!t and just change their minds depending on the weather.

Contract is good. It is clear, but contentious so it makes for some interesting debates. EU law is also alright, it can be a bit dry at times but the EU is a very interesting and mysterious thing politically and to learn more about how it actually works is both interesting and very valuable. The triviality of the issues also makes for a good laugh. One of the most important EU cases is about the shape of margarine tubs; another revolves around the technical definition of cheese and another on the differences between bananas and pears.

- I know you have to do exams in King's Inn/Blackhall once you finish your degree. Does the degree set you up to do these exams or do you have to do much more additional word after you've finished the degree in order to pass your exams?

Well this question is probably better answered by someone who has done the whole thing. But Law in TCD gives you a LLB, which is a recognized law degree. Therefore you will be legible to sit both the Kings Inns and Law Society exams upon graduation without having to earn any extra qualification. Of course you wouldn't go into either exam without doing a good amount of study for them beforehand, and perhaps a revision course if you can afford it. So there is extra work involved. But being a proper law degree, Law in TCD puts you in as good a position as possible.

- What's it like as a Law student in Trinity? Are the facilities good, does it take up a lot of your time, etc.

It's pretty cool. We got a nice gym, best library around etc. Unlike some other colleges, the library is actually kept fairly quiet so it's good for studying (which is important for law students because that's where the course really happens moreso than lectures). Of course the library is, as I said, the best around and I know many students from UCD who have had to attain day passes to the TCD library to find what they were looking for. On the downside it's rather ugly (in contrast to the rest of the college). Lecturers are also pretty cool.

Regarding time, the main issue when studying law is how much time you should be spending. The recommended time is 35 hours per week study; if you just want to pass exams you'll probably need considerably less, but if you want to do particularly well you'll probably need a bit more.

Thirdfox

Land law - ha... I think he's a funny (in his own way) guy though. Like he said to us "land law is black and white - I don't want you to waffle, if you're not completely right then you are wrong" which is harsh, but true. You wouldn't want to get a conveyance 92% right would you?

As for EU law - margarine tubs yes, but I prefer the frozen yoghurt, feta cheese and British sex toys case...

Also be aware that TCD is apparently changing its programme as a result of modularisation to a 6 course (instead of the present 4 course) workload per year. Personally I like it as we'll get to experiment with more areas of law but it'll be a change for me at least (in the US I'm doing 8 courses in total so it is quite managable).

xeduCat

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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Good question. All this is subject to change as (a) the relevant bodies are independent of the universities and have no obligation to coordinate with them and (b) there is a long-discussed plan to change the method of professional qualification, but:

King's Inns (barrister) - you are required to have a law degree (from a published list of approved degrees), including passes in six (used to be five) specified subjects (2008 onwards, Administrative, Company, Equity, EU, Land Law, Jurisprudence).

Not all of these subjects are mandatory in TCD (or elsewhere) and this list can (and does) change so you'll need to check and choose your optional modules carefully.

You also have to pass an entrance exam in five further subjects, currently - Constitutional, Contract, Criminal, Evidence, Tort (again can change, and not all the subjects are compulsory in your degree, but some students do the entrance exam in a subject they haven't studied anyway after revision). It's quite common for law graduates to do the entrance exam quite quickly after completion of the degree and I believe it's held once a year. If you don't have a law degree the Inns has its own diploma, after which you still do the five entrance exams.

Law Society - you are required to have a degree (not necessarily law) (or pass a basic preliminary exam if you don't have one), and then to pass eight entrance exams: Company, Constitutional, Contract, Criminal, Equity, EU, Tort, Land - again subject to change although this has been of late more stable than the Inns. Again, you may not have studied all eight subjects in your degree, and again, it's up to you how you tackle it if you haven't - there are prep courses offered by private providers of various sorts. In practice, few students do all eight at once, as there's a good deal of revision involved.

The current mandatory subjects in TCD that overlap with professional requirements or entrance exams are Constitutional (including Administrative), Contract, Criminal, EU, Tort, and Land. All the other required or examinable subjects are offered as options. If your degree is Law & ___, you will probably take them in a different order, and have fewer optional slots to fill. It is possible, for certain subjects, to do a subject during a year abroad and have it count for Kings Inns purposes (irrelevant for Law Society as you just have to pass the exam). Some students choose not to cover all possible options, so it's your choice. Similarly, TCD can change its combination and offering (and will do so as part of modularisation), though usually flagged well in advance.

Thirdfox

Jurisprudence normally counts wherever you go in 3rd year (my American one does anyway, I'm pretty sure the European exchanges count too). However I would have been limited to doing the *mandatory* company, equity, evidence and one other course that I want to do... instead I get 3 optional classes post semesterisation and modularisation.

Mario007

hey, i'm also looking for some information, on law and political science. Does anyone know how it's gonna be divided or anything like that? thanks

rc28

Hey, I'm in first year and all I can say is that it's a great course. The class and lecturers are lovely people too.If you do pure law you'll be doing Criminal, Torts, Constitutional, Legal Systems & Methods and Legal Skills (no exam in this, however) for 1st year. As has been said, the amount of work you have really depends on how much you choose to do in the library- you are given a reading list for each subject so if you do at least some of the material on it you'll be fine. Criminal,Constitutional and LSM each have 1 essay for submission after Christmas worth 20% of your overall grade in that subject and the remainding 80% comes from Summer exams (but 5% of Constitutional comes from webcourse postings).
It seems that the others above have answered all your questions better than I ever could but if you have any other q's just pm me.

aine-maire

Does anyone do law with french law??

I have it down in UCD as my first choice...

I'd way rather go to Trinity though, it's just that I've only heard bad things about that particular course in Trinity(high drop-out rate, huge workload,little support..........)

Anyone want to contradict me?

YogiBoy

aine-maire wrote: »

law with french law??

Well 3/4 of the course is the same as straight law in the first year. Just you substitute Criminal law, for French language, history, civilisation, society, etc (amount of law you do is small). There are a bit more hours. But it is probably not that too hard or demanding if you already have good LC French... obviously depends on your level. If you have spent time in a French speaking country, it won't be a problem at all.
As for "drop out", there are career-related reasons why you might want to switch into straight law later on, and the switches go both ways.
There has been a lot written on the French and German law courses at TCD already on boards, all positive.
Try this search
http://www.google.ie/search?as_q=tcd+law+german+french&hl=ga&num=100&btnG=Cuardach+Google&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=boards.ie
Resuscitate one of these threads, rather than starting a fresh uniformed debate here.

Thirdfox

And it always seems that the L&F people get the most foundation scholarships (averaging 3 out of 12)... L&G around 1 out of 10 and pure law 4 out 80. Don't know if the course is easier or the people smarter

"Schols" is that magical thing where TCD gives you free housing and meals for 5 years for taking extra exams and getting top marks in them. Though through semesterisation - no more exemptions for summer exams anymore...

eVeNtInE

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eVeNtInE

eVeNtInE wrote: »

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Basically the teaching terms are changing for the 2009/10 academic year, so since some things were placed at certain points they've been changed.

heyyaa

Hi, jst after reading all that about law,, really helpfull, thanks!!
im in 6th year at the moment and was thinking of doin law and business in Trinity, its a new course. I was just wondering if anyone could give me a rough estimate of what the points could be for this course?? and would i be better doin law and business in UCD because it has a reputation already, while trinity is just a new course?? Like i want to go 2 trinity, but would it be risky because its a new course??