Airlines and shooting kit

kowloon

What is the procedure with taking kit, including guns, by air?
Assuming there is no extra paperwork beyond licences for both countries, and import/export papers where necessary, who do you check the gun into? How do you secure the box and who do you present the papers to?

IRLConor

From the stories I've heard from other shooters going overseas to competitions, the requirements and procedures are different every time.

Stuff I've learned from them:

• Make sure your firearms case is tough. It couldwill get bashed around quite a bit.
• It will probably go in outsized baggage. It may appear in customs, outsize baggage or on the carousel (:eek:) at the far end depending on the airport, the firearm and the phase of the moon.
• Ammunition will probably need to be in a separate bag/box. Sometimes this is interpreted to mean that the ammunition must be in a bag/box of its own, not buried in your kit bag. It's probably best to plan ahead for this scenario and have a separate hard container for it.
• Even though it often makes sense to do so, most airports won't let you take the bolt/action/whatever with you on board.
• If you're flying to the UK, they may not be set up in the destination airport for doing security procedures on passengers from Ireland so they may take out and inspect your firearm in a public area. Plan accordingly.
• Airline staff at both ends are unlikely to be familiar with the laws involved in handling and moving firearms.

Call the airline first. They may just say "turn up on the day", but it makes sense to ask them first. Ryanair and Aer Arann won't take firearms, Aer Lingus will.

TrapperJohn

This raises an interesting issue should Ryanair succeed and take over Aer Lingus.

Whose baggage policy would be adopted?

Will Ryanair insist that Aer Lingus not carry firearms as its too costly for their model or will Aer Lingus continue to accomodate us as is?

kowloon

Would the case count as sporting equipment and get the surcharge the same as golf clubs etc?

IRLConor

TrapperJohn wrote:

This raises an interesting issue should Ryanair succeed and take over Aer Lingus.

Whose baggage policy would be adopted?

Will Ryanair insist that Aer Lingus not carry firearms as its too costly for their model or will Aer Lingus continue to accomodate us as is?

The folks in Aviation & Aircraft could probably answer better, but I don't think that Ryanair's proposed takeover of Aer Lingus would mean that Aer Lingus would adopt all the Ryanair behaviours.

kowloon wrote: »

Would the case count as sporting equipment and get the surcharge the same as golf clubs etc?

The Aer Lingus baggage rules currently say:

• Sports guns cannot be booked online and are carried only under the following conditions:
  
  • Sport Guns are to be dismantled.
  • Sports Guns when dismantled are carried only as checked baggage.
  • Sport Guns, ammunition and cartridges must be packed separately from other baggage.
  • Sport Guns, ammunition and cartridges must be available for inspection by security.
  • Ammunition is limited to 5kg per passenger and must be packed in containers of Wood, metal, or fireboard with the contents protected against any movement.
  • Subject to an extra charge for flights within Europe.

but I think that one of the guys in DURC has booked a rifle and pre-paid for it as ski equipment.

sfakiaman

I've carried rifles with Aer Lingus and had no problems. There is a charge same as golf clubs and they have to go through a seperate check in.

LB6

BTW - Don't try and take ur expensive scopes on board either - They'll want you to dismantle it (Italian's for ya) "cause you might have something hidden down through it and it could be used as a weapon!" Oh and bolts must go in a seperate box again.....

Grizzly 45

True enough LB.The Italianos are usually too busy yakking at each other at the security checkpoints to be botherd looking at the X ray screen in the first place.:rolleyes::)
Avoid Heathrow,Gatwick and Stanstead if at all possible.They are totally anal about firearms in transit and seem to take a perverse delight in making travel for the average gunowner a pain in the you know what.

Sandy22

If travelling by US Airways take an AR-7

Sparks

Arf

The few times I've gone abroad with firearms, it's always been Aer Lingus. What I've learnt is:

• Baggage handlers come under "Act of God" in your insurance. Buy a peli case and put your rifle in it. Then buy another peli case and put your first case in that
• Don't seal the case before you get to the airport, they will want to open and inspect it.
• Do bring duct tape or some other kind of tape and the locks for the case - after inspection, close, lock and then tape over the clasps so the case can't be opened without everyone knowing it was opened (and check that on the far end).
• Ammo goes in a seperate case, make sure it does not rattle. Don't lock the case and don't put the case in your kitbag because AL staff know nothing of firearms and may want to see for themselves that the .22 rounds in the eley box can't rub up against one another and go off in the hold...). Again, keep the lock and tape handy for after the inspection. Tins of air pellets tend to get ignored, but better safe than sorry, keep them seperate if you can.
• The guns always go through the large baggage x-ray, not through regular check-in, but your kitbag and ammo go through regular check-in.
• Keep your bolt seperate and discharge your air cylinders fully before you get to the airport.
• Heathrow is bad, especially during a bomb scare. Gatwick is actually quite excellent, especially if you're getting the train to Bisley (the station's in the airport basement). Not been to Stanstead.
• Leave lots and lots of time before your flight in your schedule, and bring a pocket-sized book to read, there's a lot of hurry-up-and-wait involved in this.
• On the far end, run to the carousel, do not walk. You may be greeted by your rifle/ammo/pistol box, clearly marked 'Firearms' or 'Ammunition', merrily spinning round the carousel unattended. If the airline's smart enough not to do this, they'll page you to collect your stuff.
• If you see a baggage handler throwing your kit about, don't yell stop, it only encourages them.
• Europasses aren't really a golden ticket in the UK and Ireland, but in the rest of the EU, they are given more weight. In general, the more paper you have, the better, especially since Irish licences are almost always given a raised eyebrow given their half-assed formatting and printing and nearly-inevitable scribbles and errors. Keep the paperwork with your own passport at all times.
• Pack like someone was going to throw your kit from the aircraft a few minutes before it touches down at your destination.
• Travel insurance.
• Trim down the list of what you're taking. If you're going as part of a team, you don't all need to bring a bleed valve for air cylinders or a cleaning rod, for example.
• Travel in uniform if you're part of a team, and make sure you let the airline people know you're an official team.
• Get some sleep on the plane, you're going to need it

LB6

laughing at point 8 in ur list Sparks. We were well in time for our flight - but the special airport police didnt check our gear till 3/4 hr before boarding - bad idea and then there was the issue with bolts and then the scopes - they held up the plane for an 1hr15mins.....thank God we had the seats up the front!

manbearpig

Has anyone here had experience of taking a rifle abroad?

I'm heading away to Croatia in November shooting boar and was wondering do I just rock up to the airport and check gun in as you would a normal pice of luggage?

Flying with Lufthansa and that's what they told me to do on the phone!

Surely it's not that simple.

welsummer

ryan air wont allow firarms.
your gun must be in a solid case that can be locked .
ammumition must be kept seperate in another container and not just in the box that that they come in.
you will need a european firarms pass as well as your irish one.
if you have a moderater make sure you have a permit for it with you.
your luggare will be checked through normally. but the guns sreial number will be cross checked with your licience and then checked into a different hatch for oversized luggage.
they tend to go into a bit of a flap when they hear you have guns and phone calls start flying all over the place.
Be patient and allow for an extra hour.

LB6

Scopes will have to travel in the hold. Any bolts will have to be boxed seperately from the firearms and ammunition and also go in the hold.

JDBLASER

As said you must have ammo in seperate locked box. Have all your paperwork ready to hand and do not hane it in the same box as the guns.. Have heard of them not allowing boxes to be opened until paperwork is checked.. Then you will be accompanied to excess baggage and they will go thru no prob. Cant remember the exact cost, somewhere in region of €65.

jwshooter

in fairness there very good .just make sure they know your bring a firearm and get them to e mail you with what they require

manbearpig

Cheers

sounds pretty straightforward

CJhaughey

Croatia is not in the EU, does that make it any different?
Maybe it doesn't but you should check with the embassy anyway just to be sure.
They do use many of the EU laws but I am not sure about firearms pass.

Sparks

It can vary slightly depending on who's handling your luggage on the day, so be nice. The rifle will need a solid case as mentioned above, and the case will need to be locked in transit and you should put tape around it so it can't be opened without cutting the tape - but do not do that until you're at the desk and they've inspected it (which they'll want to). Once that's done, lock it up and tape it up. By the way, that case better be good - Dublin Airport Baggage Handlers are covered in your insurance as Acts of God...

Also, the ammunition - last time through, they wanted to examine that as well to ensure it was cased in such a way that the individual rounds weren't in contact with one another (we were being told that that might set them off. I say nothing regarding the liklihood of that event and it's implications for the firearms knowledge of the airlines involved, but do be aware they may ask you about that). And the ammo box has to be locked and taped up the same way. Don't put the ammo box in your main kitbag.

Basicly, it's a pain. Leave lots of time. Get there well before checkin.

And wear slipon shoes, trousers with no belt and so forth - you're going to be annoyed enough at all the hassle with the firearm to not need more at the gate. And for the sake of your sanity, don't watch anyone with ski gear or you'll get ticked off at the way we're treated by comparison.

Do have a laugh when you realise as you queue for the security desk, that the sign on the wall listing what you cannot take into the cabin lists off replica firearms - but for at least a year after that sign went up, it didn't list real firearms

manbearpig

CJhaughey wrote: »

Croatia is not in the EU, does that make it any different?
Maybe it doesn't but you should check with the embassy anyway just to be sure.
They do use many of the EU laws but I am not sure about firearms pass.

All they require in Croatia is you're firearmrs license and passport. I was told to bring European firearms pass anyway as it would do no harm.

poulo6.5

manbearpig wrote: »

All they require in Croatia is you're firearmrs license and passport. I was told to bring European firearms pass anyway as it would do no harm.

hi i was just wondering how you go about getting a European firearms pass, i'm thinking about going to Germany hunting and i would like to bring my own rifle as she can get jealous when i spend time with other guns :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Terrier

manbearpig wrote: »

I'm heading away to Croatia in November shooting boar

Manbearpig can you give us a write up on your return. Planning a boar trip for next year and would love to know how you get on

Cheers

Dvs

poulo6.5 wrote: »

hi i was just wondering how you go about getting a European firearms pass, i'm thinking about going to Germany hunting and i would like to bring my own rifle as she can get jealous when i spend time with other guns :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Your local Garda station,
it is free of charge, it will have to go to your district Garda station to be signed, so if your local Garda staion is a substation, not the district station, it may take some time.

Dvs.

welsummer

all you need is a passport size photo and give it to your garda in your local station that deals with the firearms. with a note of where and when you are travelling.allow a bit of time as as the efficency of differnet stations differ. mine usually comes back in a few days , but for a buddy of mine that lives in ferns in co wexford, it takes about 2 months and some times he has had to travel without his gun and borrow one over there. it comes in a passport size booklet with the details of all your guns in it and usally lasts for about 2 months , and low and behold its FREE.

Bananaman

When travelling 'across' Europe with your firearm it is always wise to have a valid European Firearms Pass, in case your flight gets diverted to an EU Country and you have to collect your luggage and take it from airside to check into a connecting flight.

Be there a lot earlier than you would normally be there - I always turn up 3 hours early for a flight when I have firearms in tow.(Giving myself an extra hour for dealing with general codology)

I always seek out a 'floor manager' - the guys managing the overall checkin area and inform than that I am checking in sporting firearms to flight XYZ (I'm always checking in a centrefire pistol and invariably in a large group) and should I join the normal check-in queue or would they like to check me/us in seperately to avoid disruption. Half the time they will have us join the normal queue but the other half they will open a desk to check you in.

You have to realise that most check-in staff will not know what to do which could lead to delays.

Once your other bags are checked in and they tag your firearm and/or ammunition case(s) they will escort you to oversize where the bag it taken airside.

AMMUNITION

It MUST be in a seperate, locked case from the firearm itself. The Individual rounds must be seperated - i.e. not throw into a peli case (It happens). The overall weight of the case - not just the ammunition but the case, locks etc - must not exceed 6kg. You cannot pay to bring more - that is the limit of the weight of the case.

WHEN YOU ARRIVE.

It is quite possible your cases will come out on the carousel with all the other luggage - firearms tags and all - I always had a pistol case, you have a rifle case so less likely to 'walk' but I would still not dither on the way to baggage.

Most likely the Airport Police/Customs/Baggage Handlers will have it. Most European Airports are well used to sporting firearms, unlike our own.

B'Man

Sparks

Merging these two threads and bumping out to the general shooting forum (with a redirect left back in hunting) as there's some pretty decent information in here.

Rovi

Bananaman wrote: »

AMMUNITION

It MUST be in a seperate, locked case from the firearm itself. The Individual rounds must be seperated - i.e. not throw into a peli case (It happens). The overall weight of the case - not just the ammunition but the case, locks etc - must not exceed 6kg. You cannot pay to bring more - that is the limit of the weight of the case.

I'm pretty sure the ammunition weight limit is 5kg.
We argued this point when we went through Dublin airport recently (a few months ago), and got them to accept that the limit applied specifically to the ammunition, NOT including cases, locks, etc.

It makes a difference when you're going to a match with a high round count

Sparks

At least it's not the weight limit on the firearms - when your rifle weighs 5.4kg, you're in trouble before you ever put it in the Peli case with it's assorted bits and bobs!

Grizzly 45

.






.

WHEN YOU ARRIVE.

It is quite possible your cases will come out on the carousel with all the other luggage - firearms tags and all - I always had a pistol case, you have a rifle case so less likely to 'walk' but I would still not dither on the way to baggage

.

AHHAH!!!!!Very VERY NAUGHTY to do that!!!It is against Federal firearms and FAA rules in the US,and ipso facto here in Europe under security and avaition carrige rules,to mark a firearm container as such!!!you might as well have a STEAL ME I'm A GUN!!! sticker on your firearm box then.If that happens complain blue murder about this to the airline and the cheif of airport security from your departure airport.

Bananaman

I believe that under IATA rules the case which contains the firearm has a 'firearm tag' added to it by the airline staff.

I have not travelled outside the EU with mine but everywhere I have gone I got a tag on the way out and a tag on the way back

(except in one instance where they got in a flap because they did not have any so I told them there was an Aer Lingus one inside the case if they wished to use it - which they did)

They all have FIREARM on them and a silhouette of a firearm. Some are funny with a silhouette of a Tommy Gun, others with a Mauser, yet more with an AK-47. Makes you tempted to get a Violin Shaped Peli Case just to hang the tag off ;-)

B'Man

It wasn't me!

Bananaman wrote: »

I believe that under IAAF rules the case which contains the firearm has a 'firearm tag' added to it by the airline staff.

I have not travelled outside the EU with mine but everywhere I have gone I got a tag on the way out and a tag on the way back

(except in one instance where they got in a flap because they did not have any so I told them there was an Aer Lingus one inside the case if they wished to use it - which they did)

They all have FIREARM on them and a silhouette of a firearm. Some are funny with a silhouette of a Tommy Gun, others with a Mauser, yet more with an AK-47. Makes you tempted to get a Violin Shaped Peli Case just to hang the tag off ;-)

B'Man

I'd buy that. Need to buy a new trenchcoat and a trilby too though.

Rovi

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I'd buy that. Need to buy a new trenchcoat and a trilby too though.

Here you go:
http://www.tommygunshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=555

It wasn't me!

Rovi wrote: »

Here you go:
http://www.tommygunshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=555

I'd want a peli for flying, but very tempted to pick that up for domestic stuff...

Mr Mole

After a few trips abroad this year, a few of us came up with this so it might help someone.

IATA Regulations.
Ammunition (cartridges for weapons), securely packaged (in Div. 1.4S, UN 0012 or UN 0014 only), in quantities not exceeding 5 kg (11 lb) gross weight per person for that person's own use.
Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one or more packages. (This means that if two persons are travelling, they cannot put 10 Kilos or 22 Lbs Ammo in one big box etc).

AerLingus. (From Website).
8.3.2
Firearms and ammunition other than for hunting and sporting purposes are prohibited from carriage as Baggage. (Carry on).
Firearms and ammunition for hunting and sporting purposes may be accepted as Checked Baggage.
Firearms must be unloaded with the safety catch on, and suitably packed.
Carriage of ammunition is subject to ICAO and IATA regulations as specified in 8.3.1.1.

Sports Guns
Aer Lingus will carry sports guns and ammunition cartridges subject to the following:
· Sport Guns are to be dismantled.
· Sports Guns when dismantled are to be loaded with checked baggage.
· Sport Guns, ammunition and cartridges must be packed separately from other baggage.
· Sport Guns, ammunition and cartridges must be available for inspection by security.
· Ammunition is limited to 5kg per passenger and must be packed in containers of wood, metal, or fireboard with the contents protected against any movement.
· Subject to an extra charge for flights within Europe.
Fees For Sports Guns And Ammunition
€40/£32 or equivalent for all flights within Europe. (£37 for flights departing London Heathrow).
This fee is payable at the airport on the day of departure. For flights to/from North America sports guns and ammunition may be carried under the normal baggage allowance.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Aer Lingus has advised me that firearms cannot be pre booked as a normal piece of luggage or at normal luggage rates.
Do NOT book as sporting equipment and then try to change it at the airport. It WILL cause confusion. Complete your online booking as normal, including normal luggage bookings. Immediately phone Customer Services and ask them to note on the booking that you will be bringing a sporting firearm on the day.
On the date of the flight, pay the required €40 each way for the firearm. Because the ammunition MUST travel separately, there is no charge for its carriage. Weigh it exactly to no more than 5Kgs or 11 Lbs before you leave for the trip.
Packing.
· Gun should be dismantled prior to packing.
· Gun should be placed in secure lockable container / gun case.
· Container / gun case should NOT be small, but of a reasonable size, to ensure the possibility of going astray is minimal. Small boxes WILL get lost.
· Name address and contact phone number should be discreetly attached to gun case.
· Be aware of size, brand of case, and identifying features.
· Good idea to retain photo of gun, and case in event of loss.
· Check your gun case, clothing, and other luggage, range bag etc, has NO loose rounds in them.
· If bringing ammunition, weigh it, ensure is under 5 Kilos, and pack it a in separate lockable container or case, again of a reasonable size.
· Check Firearm is currently licenced, and is on Europass.
· Remember to bring Firearms Cert, Europass and copy competition invitation.

• Check in.
• Try to seek out the most experienced looking member of staff at Check In if possible. (Old hands!).
• If there is a group, notify a staff member if possible, as they will possibly open a specific check in for you.

· Do NOT crowd the check in area, please form an orderly line.
· Firearm case CANNOT be placed inside other checked luggage.
· Pay for baggage and firearm.
· Check in individually with passport, documents etc, unless directed otherwise by an airline agent.
· If asked to open Firearms Case / Box, do so discreetly and open lid away from public view.
· Put your gun case personally on the check in conveyor belt if required.
· Watch and ensure that your gun case is labelled with a firearm label, and airline check in tag.
· Retain the stub of check in tag.

o On arrival.
· Get to Carousel. If firearm not there, go to Customs / Police/ Service Desk.
· Go to Irish Customs on your return.
· Enjoy your shoot!

Grizzly 45

Bananaman wrote: »

I believe that under IATA rules the case which contains the firearm has a 'firearm tag' added to it by the airline staff.

I have not travelled outside the EU with mine but everywhere I have gone I got a tag on the way out and a tag on the way back

(except in one instance where they got in a flap because they did not have any so I told them there was an Aer Lingus one inside the case if they wished to use it - which they did)

They all have FIREARM on them and a silhouette of a firearm. Some are funny with a silhouette of a Tommy Gun, others with a Mauser, yet more with an AK-47. Makes you tempted to get a Violin Shaped Peli Case just to hang the tag off ;-)

B'Man

Crazy and illegal ..Well at least you will know who to blame and sue for gross negligence,if ever your guns are stolen,or if you shoot in the US for your extra stay in the county crossbar motel,for Aer lingus,etc violating US federal firearms laws.That was IMHO the only good thing to come out of the Crime control bill .
Went thru the IATA rules,[most airlines publish them] it is under section 8 Baggage and transporting firearms or dangerous goods.

No mention on having to put firearm stickers on any luggage containing a firearm. 8.3.2, 8.3.3,& 8.3.4 are the revelant points.And of course a nice failsafe for the airline...If it is lost or damaged,not our fault!!!Of COURSE not! You only insisted on putting STEAL ME!! stickers on it.

Bananaman

I've read that a few times and I still don't know what it means.

Rovi

By way of entertainment and education, here are the three types of airline labels I've accumulated:
Top: Aer Lingus (same both sides)
Second: Easy Jet (plain white on back)
Third & Fourth: Krakow airport services (front & back)

Grizzly 45

How quaint!! The Poles still use an MP44 sthilloute!!:)
And Aer lingus uses an air rifle!

Rovi

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And Aer lingus uses an air rifle!

They probably contacted the Commissioner for advice on what would be the most scary image they could put on it to signify the extraordinarily dangerous nature of the item.

tonysopprano

Maybe it was the only picture of a long arm on "THAT LIST"

BornToKill

tonysopprano wrote: »

Maybe it was the only picture of a long arm on "THAT LIST"

What list? :rolleyes:

IRLConor

Rovi wrote: »

They probably contacted the Commissioner for advice on what would be the most scary image they could put on it to signify the extraordinarily dangerous nature of the item.

At least they stopped short of this though:

Sparks

Well, Aer Lingus were good enough to us this morning. But right now we're sitting in Schiphol drinking coffee and waiting for KLM's excess baggage charges to stop smarting... owowowowbloodyriflekitweighsametrictonowowowow!

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, Aer Lingus were good enough to us this morning. But right now we're sitting in Schiphol drinking coffee and waiting for KLM's excess baggage charges to stop smarting... owowowowbloodyriflekitweighsametrictonowowowow!

Would you for Heaven's sake leave boards alone for a few days, it's a break ffs

Grizzly 45

Are Death stars restricted or un restricted???

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Are Death stars restricted or un restricted???

I think they're prohibited. They'd be too easy to get a licence for as they would be the only 'type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose'

And there'd be no problem proving good reason. You're Darth Vader FFS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-IEzw

Rovi

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Are Death stars restricted or un restricted???

Does it have a pistol grip?

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Would you for Heaven's sake leave boards alone for a few days, it's a break ffs

A break he says. Twelve pounds of body weight I drop from all the work and he says it's a break. *shakes head*



*and* I got stung for another €230 on the way home through excess baggage. KLM are so far off my winter solstice card list it's not funny any more.

And Dublin Customs haven't been briefed on the new licence it would seem. The first clue was the customs lad asking me if it was my Garda Weapon I was bringing through in the case (I hadn't taken the licence card off the letter it came on and he was looking at the official stamps and such). I wasn't sure where to start on the corrections there