Respond! Idea on Housing problems

keystone

I'm not sure if many have read this but its a very good idea!

http://www.respond.ie/Media_Detail.aspx?rowid=231161

I heard some representatives of Respond! on the Radio and Tv and they have a great point.

On The Last Word, a rep for the Government conceded that it was a good concept and that they would look at it. In fact they agreed to a meeting with the Finance panel, etc.

Now, being serious, nothing will happen, however, this is the type of society we need! People, have been screwed, the developers are being sorted...why not the unlucky vendor.......

Im sure many people will disagree however, put yourself in others shoes before commenting.

I'd love to see what other people think.

gurramok

No way. Debt forgiveness tolerates bad decisions by people who bought overpriced houses.

I now demand debt forgiveness for that car i overpaid for.

Prudent people are being screwed while the wreckless are being rewarded.

And yes, lets add billions of bad mortgages that default to the national debt, lovely.

ntlbell

Totally against anything like this.

As much as I feel sorry for people who might lose their homes debt forgiveness is not the answer, people who have been sensible and prudent get no forgiveness I see no reason why people who have been reckless should get any.

Mistakes need to be punished not rewarded.

daheff

why should people be excused their debt because of their inabilty to pay? if they werent able to pay then they shouldnt have been given mortgages.


Perhaps if the regulator showed some balls and prosecuted some of the mortgage lending companies for reckless lending then we wouldnt see this again in the future


What they could maybe do as a compromise is to fix these peoples payments at a low interest rate now and help them this way...but definitely not excuse them the debt.

The_Conductor

I'm living in an unsuitable apartment that I purchased long before my wife and I were ever seriously considering getting married. At least its a reasonable size and solidly built, in a good location. It is unsaleable however- but I can afford to pay the mortgage. I acted in a financially prudent manner. If these people are going to have their debts forgiven- how about giving all those married couples, or couples with children a semi-d somewhere with a garden and find some purpose or use for the apartments that everyone was sold as "getting your foot on the property ladder".......

Forgiving debts is rewarding people who took stupid risks- while those who acted in a more prudent manner as taxpayers will be expected to shoulder the blame (despite the fact that they themselves will then be in a worse position than Mr. and Ms X who have just had their debts forgiven.......)

If you make a bollox of your finances- you should shoulder the blame for screwing things up- not expect a handout.

El Stuntman

I demand compensation for all the money I lost on the stock market last year

not to mention my other gambling losses

moral hazard anyone?

ntlbell

El Stuntman wrote: »

not to mention my other gambling losses

File the bad beat returns?

Duckjob

It takes 2 parties to create a foolish loan - one to offer it, and another to accept it.

I could not find one reference in that article to the need for people to exercise personal financial responsibility.

Much as I loathe the bahavior of our big lenders over the last couple of years, a share of the blame for personal hardships, as well as the resulting state of the economy now lies with every single person who bought into the "property, can't lose" bull****.

The fact is, there is a cost to be born as a result of the actions of those people. Who is it more fair to ask to bear that cost? The people who threw caution to the wind and jumped in when they shouldn't, or the people who decided to steer clear?

jodaw

While my initial thoughts are to agreee with gurramock and ntbell ...

I would prefer the money to go towards writing off mortgage debt than simply handing the money over to the banks. They in effect would be the ones with the bailout ...

and the will continue to hound people in arrears ... as banks do ...

My reasoning behind this is ...

Our wages levels need to seriously retrace in order to become competitive again. If there were 100K written off peoples overpriced homes and they had 100K less mortgage to pay ... they could accept lower wages and homes would fall to the correct levels sooner ...

In the ideal would this would be great but i am sure the there are so many negative impications of doing something like this that i have not thought about ...

Whatever happened to the family model in Ireland? What sickens me now is that the only possible way for a family to survive is by two people working. 25 years ago this was not the case ...

So my question is ... This was "by design" or purely accidental?

dny123456

El Stuntman wrote: »

I demand compensation for all the money I lost on the stock market last year

not to mention my other gambling losses

moral hazard anyone?

In a way you do get that... you can right off tax against your losses... certainly on the stock market. Not sure about the gambling!

I think it's a great idea, as I owe loads of money on a mortgage and would like you all to pay it off for me. If this comes in, I'm make sure to lose my job as soon as possible... thaaanks (said like the insurance fraud ad)

:-)

jodaw

I would say the big problem here is ...

Did people make the decision to buy of there own free will? Or were they coerced into buying by the euphoria ???

The cheerleaders ...

Media, Government, Friends, Familys, The Dog, The Cat ...

People felt obliged to buy out of fear ...

Some many people bought into after being bombarded week after week by stories of accidential millionaires. Many people did not think idenpendantly and i do not blame them entirely for being caught up in this...

Shame in all the powers that be ... they knew exactly what was happening and what would be the end result. If they did not know this, they should not be in power at this moment. If they did. Shame on them and they should be the ones held to ransom ...

But once again it will be Joe left carrying the weight

gurramok

Thats fine and dandy jodaw but that money that is owed on crippling mortgages all has to be paid back.
The price is the national debt skyrocketing to third world status, our national reputation would be shattered and investors would charge sky-high interest just to loan us further money.
Nobody put a gun to the heads of people who bought overpriced houses based on dodgy incomes on the application forms so yes two parties including the banks are responsible.

Just don't expect taxpayers who never got involved in the bubble to pay up for the wreckless misdeeds of a minority.
Deflation, unemployment and competition is taking care of the wage level issue.

dny123456

gurramok wrote: »

Just don't expect taxpayers who never got involved in the bubble to pay up for the wreckless misdeeds of a minority.

We already are bud, we already are.

Toxic skip Anglo is ours now and by the sounds of it, will be taking on all the toxic debt from BOI & AIB.

jodaw

I am one of the ones that stood clear of the bubble and i am one of those said taxpayers ...

You are correct ... the tax payer should not be held responsible ... but in one way or another ... we will be !!!

When i comes down to it, people are responsible for there own actions, but i do feel for struggling families that will possibly be destroyed by all this. The banks should also face consequences ... or will they be allowed to start all over again once we reach the bottom ...

So many parties are complicit in all this and there are so many problems from here to the bottom ... that i cannot see a easy way out of this ...

ME? I would gladly reverted to 1996 wage levels tomorrow ... slash 50% off my wages. It would not effect me since i am not a slave to the PAYE system ...

But maybe people cannot accept this cut now or in the future ... since their mortgage debt is too high.

At this moment ... we are in direct competition with Poland and if we cannot accept 3 yoyos an hour we are finished. Oh ... i forgot ... the knowledge economy ... Yeahhh of course ...

From my perspective the level of education among a general sample of Polish people is greater than their Irish counterparts ... The Smart Economny is a dead fish

Wing Walker

I simply don't agree with this kind of thing.

I remember watching a programme on BBC a few weeks ago following the stories about a number of families in this sort of situation. One of the recurring comments in that show were that it was all the banks' fault for lending the money. How so? Banks are businesses and they are out to make money, simply as. If you fall behind in your payments then you risk losing your home.

"But the banks loaned me that much, it's their fault". Banks are not completely blamless in this mess, I agree. But the simply fact is that banks did not hold guns to people's heads. When I got my mortgage I knew exactly what I was getting into. I knew that I would be repaying the bank almost twice what I was borrowing over the course of the mortgage. It's not a nice thought, but there was no other way for me to get a home, like the majority of people out there. And I've kept up my repayments. It hasn't been easy, not by a long shot. I know the risks if I don't keep them up and I am prepared to face them should the unthinkable ever happen.

I don't want to be too critical of people who fall behind or even default on a mortgage because I know that times are difficult. But to write off these debts and then expect life to continue on as normal helps nobody. As SMcCarrick says, "If you make a bollox of your finances- you should shoulder the blame for screwing things up- not expect a handout."

godtabh

I've worked with Respond on many of their jobs. They are good people and the idea behind what they do I fully agree with.

I bought and apartment a couple of years ago. Its perfect for me. I've built up a fair bit of savings since then that in the event of something happening I wouldn't be in **** creek.

The only debt I have is my home loan. Which I can manage now with a job and upto a year without a job. If I can manage this (my grasp on finances is poor) than any one who cant should face the consequence.

But in saying that banks shouldn't have priority. There needs to be something in-between writing off the debt and losing your house

The_Conductor

kearnsr wrote: »

I've worked with Respond on many of their jobs. They are good people and the idea behind what they do I fully agree with.

I bought and apartment a couple of years ago. Its perfect for me. I've built up a fair bit of savings since then that in the event of something happening I wouldn't be in **** creek.

The only debt I have is my home loan. Which I can manage now with a job and upto a year without a job. If I can manage this (my grasp on finances is poor) than any one who cant should face the consequence.

But in saying that banks shouldn't have priority. There needs to be something in-between writing off the debt and losing your house

Thats one group of people.
What about the residents of the 168,000 apartments nationwide many of whom are trying to bring up children in wholly insuitable accommodation. Certainly- its hard on the 14,600 people who are now more than 3 months in arrears on their mortgages- but there are 10 times this number who bought into the 'first foot on the property ladder' lark with the intention of moving when they could afford to. A very high proportion of those are now in negative equity in wholly unsaleable property- but they can still afford to pay the mortgage, or pay the rent.........

Why should people be bailed out?
If the banks lending criteria were not strict enough- perhaps make the bank commute the loan to 60 cent in the Euro (as they do for commercial loans- most notably where First Active wrote off almost 280 million last week alone).

The people who contributed to this mess- those who were willing to bucket the money out the door during the good times- of course as a worse case scenario will only loose their jobs- not have to account for the hundreds of repossessions that they personally might have been liable towards.

godtabh

smccarrick wrote: »

Why should people be bailed out?

If the banks lending criteria were not strict enough- perhaps make the bank commute the loan to 60 cent in the Euro (as they do for commercial loans- most notably where First Active wrote off almost 280 million last week alone).

People have to take responciblity for their actions.

If some one bus a small apartment and then decided to start a family that is a decision they have to make on their own. If the decsion they make isnt suitable then they take responceabilty for that.

If every bad decsion results in a bailout the cyle will repeat itself.

As I said there should be some where between losing your home and a bail out.

If you can afford to live in your house but it isnt suitable then you just have to ride it out.

Duckjob

The state of the economy now is largely due to the huge amount of reckless lending and reckless borrowing over the last 7-8 yrs.

The cost to be born because of this is already in the process of being socialised out to people who played no part in it by way of higher taxes.

God knows whats coming down the line in this country in terms of tax rates, as the Government leans ever more heavily on those "lucky" enough to still have a job to bail out everybody else. Even before talks of bailouts to homeowners - that already, is unfair.

As David McWilliams said in a recent article, we, irish workers are volunteers, not prisoners. I'm certainly keeping an open mind towards packing my bags if necessary and going to live in a country where at least the government might have a little more spine. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking along these lines.

El Stuntman

ntlbell wrote: »

File the bad beat returns?

no, my poker winnings subsidised my horseracing losses

it's amazing the amount of horses out there that forget how to jump properly once I back them :rolleyes:

anway I'm an innocent victim and I demand compensation. Those nasty bookies lied to me!

ZYX

Duckjob wrote: »

The state of the economy now is largely due to the huge amount of reckless lending and reckless borrowing over the last 7-8 yrs.

No it is not. The state of the economy over last 10 years where there was full employment, where basic rate of income tax was cut from 35% to 20%, where there was huge pay rises well above inflation, all that is due to
"the huge amount of reckless lending and reckless borrowing over the last 7-8 yrs."

The state the economy is in now is due to the fact that this recklessness (however unsustainable) has ended, coupled with the poor management of the economy over the last 10 years. People have to accept that people who never bought a property still benefited hugely by the boom.

Himselfe

What an immature solution to a serious problem. Not of affordability, but of responisibilty. People in this situation didn't read the small print and jumped on the band wagon like everyone else seemed to be doing while, as others have mentioned, the prudent among us decided not to jump in. They should buck up and take responsibility for themselves.

Such a bail out would simply be rewarding people for thier mistakes.

I admit there are exceptions, but the vast majority of people in this situation are there because they feel they are not responsible for their own actions and can get out of it on other peoples backs, namely the tax payer.

Its always someone elses fault.

Duckjob

ZYX wrote: »

No it is not. The state of the economy over last 10 years where there was full employment, where basic rate of income tax was cut from 35% to 20%, where there was huge pay rises well above inflation, all that is due to
"the huge amount of reckless lending and reckless borrowing over the last 7-8 yrs."

A property boom puts huge upward pressure on salaries, because people need huge salaries to service their huge mortgages.

Employers mostly have to conceed to demands for salary hikes in a boom if they want to hold onto their key staff, because it is an employees market. They then have to charge more for their goods and services.

This happens on a national scale, and creates a huge self-feeding inflationary cycle.

Are you seriously arguing that the property boom of the last 7-8 years didn't make us uncompetitive vs other countries ?

The state the economy is in now is due to the fact that this recklessness (however unsustainable) has ended, coupled with the poor management of the economy over the last 10 years. People have to accept that people who never bought a property still benefited hugely by the boom.

I don't understand what the point is you're trying to make here, it sounds like someone saying that the reason somebody has shakes and hallucinations is because they've stopped taking the heroin they've been lashing into themselves.

The rising tide of the property bubble didn't lift all boats equally - far from it in fact. Every person who secured a cushy future from the bubble got that on the backs of other poor saps who consigned themselves to years of toil and financial stress because they arrived too late to the party.

Hobky

'Twas mostly smoke & mirrors ZYX.

The reality of the boom is that we splurged on credit rendering ourselves un-competitive as a nation. The chickens are now coming home to roost as job after job is being lost. This will continue until such time as our cost base becomes competitive again.

Rather than offering a debt bail-out I would propose that govt overhaul our personal bankruptcy laws (which are among the most draconian in terms of debtor liability in the Western world) to the benefit of debtors.

johnnyskeleton

If people who bought at a ridiculous price get debt forgiveness, can I also get a free house with a mortgage that I never have to pay back?

Schuhart

kearnsr wrote: »

But in saying that banks shouldn't have priority. There needs to be something in-between writing off the debt and losing your house

Banks are slow to evict people. It’s bad for their image and, anyway, they’d rather they just got the money out of you. There are stories that the banks are actually quietly repossessing some houses and letting the families stay on renting. People will have the problem that these debts will be hanging over them for years. But, I’m afraid, that’s just how it is.

Plus, I think we know that if we ever admitted the possibility that someone might have been too stupid to know what they were doing, that everyone with a loan would be jumping up and down saying ‘me too, I’m a gobber too’.

If people can’t decide this kind of thing for themselves, can they be trusted to make any serious decision about their lives? Should we tell them what jobs to apply for, who to marry, what religion to follow?

Himselfe wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault.

As I said elsewhere, there’s a scene in the film "Electra Glide in Blue", where a truck driver is pleading with the motorcycle cop not to give him a ticket as he’ll be sacked. He explains he’s only six weeks back from serving as a Marine in Vietnam and that he’s finding it hard to hold down a job – this being his third since he returned.

The cop says “You were a Marine in Vietnam? I was a Marine in Vietnam.” The truck driver looks up hopefully. “You’re only back six weeks?” continues the cop. “Well I’m going to do for you what it took people six months to do for me. Absolutely nothing.” He writes the ticket.

We have to start being honest with each other sometime. I hope that time is now.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If people who bought at a ridiculous price get debt forgiveness, can I also get a free house with a mortgage that I never have to pay back?

Of course you can, with a cherry on top.

dny123456

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If people who bought at a ridiculous price get debt forgiveness, can I also get a free house with a mortgage that I never have to pay back?

nope, you're too late.

compnetgreg

keystone wrote: »

I'm not sure if many have read this but its a very good idea!


I heard some representatives of Respond! on the Radio and Tv and they have a great point.

Now, being serious, nothing will happen, however, this is the type of society we need! People, have been screwed, the developers are being sorted...why not the unlucky vendor.......

Im sure many people will disagree however, put yourself in others shoes before commenting.

I'd love to see what other people think.

On TV Please with the CRACKING problem on PARNELL ESTATE!!!!

The_Conductor

Zombie thread. Closed.