Public Order Preparation

AlekSmart

The prevailing mood in Ireland is currently one of almost palpable depression.

Whether or not this is entirely justified is a moot point,however what does appear to be accepted is the necessity for large scale cuts in almost every area of Government Spending.

I think its worth seeking a broad based view of just how ready the ES`s are for any large-scale Public Order issues which may derive from some of the yet-to-be-announced cutbacks.

It`s not merely the increase in Jobless but consequent upon this is the reality of seriously reduced standard of living for everybody.

Quite often it is those who become unemployed who are most receptive to the new form of living this entails.
Coming from a work related discipline gives some framework within which to plan and cope with the new situation.

However we must also realize that Ireland has a sizable minority of people who have never signed-up for this "Working for a Living" notion,as they had managed to become at one with a somewhat lackadaisically administered Social Welfare system and it`s attendant benefits.

This sizable minority of themselves do not represent a problem until it is realized that they have set themselves up within a tight social enclave,often with the intention of keeping the "other world" out.

I think it may have been Kevin Myers who got into trouble for describing this group as Genetically Unemployable,a description which although technically deficient manages to convey an accurate state of play.

Having just watched some U-Tube footage of the 2004 May Day and the 2006 Love Ulster Public Order situations in Dublin City Centre I was struck by just how wrong footed the Gardai were in attempting to deal with the events.

Having been in the City Centte myself for the Love Ulster gig,I am still amazed at how Senior Garda Management have not been publically called to account for the lack of regard which THEY displayed for their own members.

The numbers of Gardai who were left totally exposed in non-protective uniform and the length of time they remained so simply cannot be regarded as acceptable in any modern Public Order Policing sense.

Similarly,the May Day events revealed how individual rank and file Gardai were left largely unbriefed as to the situation on the ground and then thrown to the wolves for responding in a manner which was deemed "excessive"

Have any ES staff got opinions as to whether AGS Senior Management have taken measures to ensure neither scenario is repeated or is such non-PC preparation deemed a career stunting move ?

My point essentially is one of preparation and whether or not we have any ?

TheNog

Well before anyone posts a reply to this I would ask you to restructure your post so it doesnt include a sweeping gengeralisation of people who are unemployed. If you cannot do so then I will lock this thread.

Nog

AlekSmart

However we must also realize that Ireland has a sizable minority of people who have never signed-up for this "Working for a Living" notion,as they had managed to become at one with a somewhat lackadaisically administered Social Welfare system and it`s attendant benefits.

As somebody who could well be unempolyed myself soon I dont accept that I`m making a "sweeping generalization",at least that`s not my intention.

Whether or not one is in employment SHOULD not make any difference to one`s outlook on life.

However my concerns revolve around what happens when during such a rapid decline in living standards for EVERYBODY the sectors of Society most at risk of opportunistic manipulation can be those who have been most detached from the original boom time.

If that clarification of my OP still does`nt sit well with you then simply go with the following....?

The prevailing mood in Ireland is currently one of almost palpable depression.

Whether or not this is entirely justified is a moot point,however what does appear to be accepted is the necessity for large scale cuts in almost every area of Government Spending.

I think its worth seeking a broad based view of just how ready the ES`s are for any large-scale Public Order issues which may derive from some of the yet-to-be-announced cutbacks.

I`m not advocating a Class War or anything like it but I`m far from certain that our society is well placed to endure the forthcoming depression without some level of civil unrest...legitimate or otherwise.

deadwood

I have the upmost blind faith in AGS Management to be fully prepared for any eventuality that may arise - working within the current budgetary constraints, though .... . . . . . . . .

We've been getting away with it so far!

pa990

I'm aware of a situation in a city center where a very large fight broke out. It was a lot worse than the usual run of the mill fights you encounter on a weekly basis. A number of gardai were injured, thankfully not seriously though.

The difference with this situation, was that a Public Order Unit was availible and was nearby in the back of the wagon. Management however delined/refused to give the go-ahead for them to be deployed because they didnt want to give the impression that order couldnt be controlled be means of regular policing.
I suspect that they had they deployed the Public Order unit, it would have been mentioned on the local radio the following day, that they had been deployed and how the city center was a no-go area , the breakdown in law and order ..etc etc ..
And this is exactly what management dont want.

I know for a fact that if it had been me that was injured, i would be bringing a suit against management.



(i think i went off on a rant here.. i'm not sure if what i have said is relevant to the thread)

AlekSmart

Pa990 your views ar VERY relevant to the thread as it underlines a problem which I feel will have to be addressed,namely the politicization of the senior levels of AGS.

As you describe it,reality as it was on the night,ceased to be the issue and was replaced instead by Senior People second guessing their front line officers in an attempt to prevent the IMPRESSION of lawlessness being given.

Worse still,I believe its not even the Politicians whose fuzzy logic has infiltrated the Senior Management but worse still it`s the Senior Civil Servants who run the show.

I`m sure that there are many situations from all over the country where individual members of the ES`s find themselves prevented from taking a proffessional course of action simply due to having senior management who are fearful of upsetting some programme or other ?

Another question....Is this type of situation all in my mind or is there a basis in fact ??

punchestown

Alexsmart,

you sound far too clever to be a member of AGS!

Eru

AlekSmart wrote: »

However we must also realize that Ireland has a sizable minority of people who have never signed-up for this "Working for a Living" notion,as they had managed to become at one with a somewhat lackadaisically administered Social Welfare system and it`s attendant

Ha ha ha, I have to laugh at how PC orientated this is. Completely correct and I agree but it just goes to show how careful people are not to be labeled.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Have any ES staff got opinions as to whether AGS Senior Management have taken measures to ensure neither scenario is repeated or is such non-PC preparation deemed a career stunting move?

Since Mayday 2004 and its (in my opinion hugely edited) footage anyone in management and government is afraid of using force because the public or should I say the vocal minority, wont support us and will make extremely unfair accusations.

AlekSmart wrote: »

My point essentially is one of preparation and whether or not we have any ?

We cannot be prepared because A, the government will refuse to allow or fund it and B, management will refuse to admit we need to.

In the current climate funding for PO training will reduce. trained members will transfer away and out of po units and we will be caught again with management hiding and playing the innocence card, the government blaming everyone else and uniform Gardai standing there taking the blame for either doing nothing or for using too much violence.

IMHO however the first thing I think you will notice will be increases in burglary and other thefts.

metman

Eru wrote: »

Since Mayday 2004 and its (in my opinion hugely edited) footage anyone in management and government is afraid of using force because the public or should I say the vocal minority, wont support us and will make extremely unfair accusations.

This is a common theme with public order policing.

If you look at the following film from Notting Hill last year you'll see officers in level 3 kit (ordinary beat uniform) getting pelted with bottles, bricks etc. Senior officers held off for an inordinate amount of time in authorising officers to be deployed in level 2 kit and in sending in level 1 officers. Why? For fear of appearing 'too aggressive'.

The Notting Hill carnival is predominantly attended by London's black community and senior management is all too aware of how it looks on tv when you have riot police baton charging groups of, predominantly, black and asian youths. However when you factor in that each successive year more and more known criminals from London's street gangs attend the carnival with the sole intention of causing trouble you're left wondering where senior police management priorities lie; the safety of their officers, or public perception.

We all know the answer to this question after last years festival.

Video footage.

Eru

I remember the one last year, if I remember correctly there were very few negative comments about the polis.

In fact I remember most of it being very positive about how quick they got stuck in and restored order

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

Having just watched some U-Tube footage of the 2004 May Day

Do you mean 2004 (EU enlargement) or 2002 (Robocop)?

JonAnderton

I heard that at this years Carnival an injured Level 3 officer took refuge in a local house with a couple of colleagues, while the 'cherful and pleasent' crowd gatehred outside...

Despite all the officers on the nearby carriers willingness to go and get them, guv'nors sitting comfortably in IR wouldn't let them go in for quite a while...

But, is this a new thing...

I was told a story by one of the staff at Hendon, that during the Broadwater Farm riots, he was sitting in a van listening to all the trouble going on. All the lads wanted to go in but were told to hold their positions... He later discovered that the 'fight' they wanted to join in with would have assisted two colleagues called Blakelock and Coombes..

civdef

Despite all the officers on the nearby carriers willingness to go and get them, guv'nors sitting comfortably in IR wouldn't let them go in for quite a while...

That's bordering on malfeasance IMO.

metman

Eru wrote: »

I remember the one last year, if I remember correctly there were very few negative comments about the polis.

In fact I remember most of it being very positive about how quick they got stuck in and restored order

There was very little mention of the disorder at carnival last year, you had to actually look for info on what went on. Whether this was deliberate or the media weren't overly interested, who can say.

As regards Broadwater Farm, I think that was a different scenario. The Police were caught off-guard by the ferocity of the disorder and ill-equipped and trained to handle it. This is no slight on what the officers did there, horrendous circumstances. An ex-skipper of mine was on Keith Blakelock's relief and the skipper in question even now finds it difficult to talk about Keith.

yayamark

Jeez thats a sad story and its a nightmare situation for any member. Retreating and falling i wont sleep tonight.

donvito99

Was in London for the weekend and passed through Trafalgar Square while a Gaza Protest was goin' on. Couple of thousand protesters there. Excellent set up by the Police I must say. Mounted Police in full public order gear on a side street up near the national gallery, loads of Police dotted around the square, other police in public order gear waiting in vans just of the square in vans.

Also saw a couple of these, kinda like an Ambulance.

metman

They're the new carriers TSG have rolled out. Apparently they're roomier and more comfortable for PSU serials, with more space for kit, but have run into problems with some width restrictions in central London :rolleyes:



I think they look a bit naff, and prefer the Sprinter carriers.

foxtrot-oscar

Lets hope they dont burst into flames like the merc ambulances did here

metman

foxtrot-oscar wrote: »

Lets hope they dont burst into flames like the merc ambulances did here

Well so far so good, even with petrol bombs getting chucked around......:D

JonAnderton

Bring back the Streetsweepers.... not these icecream vans...

Seen a few Aid serials up town with them as well...

metman

They just look so much....tastier.

JonAnderton

Now thats a f***ing bus!...:D

I bet the new ones have working seat belts in the back and no strippers pole...

Seeing a convoy of the new ones just look like a bunch of Ocado vans running late..

metman

Public order preparedness

AlekSmart

Just to bump this one a bit.
In the light of what we now know about the Governments general tone towards the Public Service will anybody care to speculate on just how much slashing can be done on the GS budget,particularly Pay and Allowances before things get serious from a morale and discipline perespective ?