Fox Caliber

bunny shooter

fish slapped wrote: »

There you go Peter no excuses do the deal and you can have mine!!!:D:D;)

Vermin just wondering, why you want a hornet when ammo is twice the price of .223 and only has half the range??

223 ammo is cheaper if you buy budget brands. Premium brand 223 prices are not cheap. Effective range of either is dependant on the users ability :P

fish slapped

I agree bunny but, if the chap is looking at secondhand rifle (and theres nothing wrong with that) he's probaily on a budget so he will probaily use good value ammo ( the fox is dead and doesn't mind how much you paid for ammo) as to shooters ability the killing range of a hornet can hold back a decent shooter on educated foxes. Would you agree???

I am by no means running downthe hornet. I used one for several years.

FS.

bunny shooter

calibre is not important it's 'the nut on the butt'

fish slapped

I would say caliber is important when the "nut behind the but" is shooting AT foxes beyond the rifles safe killing range and leaves his quarry to run off injured. There is no substitute for ft/lb and to shoot at a fox with a hornet at 300 meters is not good enough.

If the mods want to move this part of the discussion to a new thread please feel free as this rifle is still for sale and not for caliber discussion.

bunny shooter

fish slapped wrote: »

I would say caliber is important when the "nut behind the but" is shooting AT foxes beyond the rifles safe killing range and leaves his quarry to run off injured.

This statement just doesn't make sense to me at all So are you saying that someone shooting with a 223 wouldn't do this or that it isn't possible with a 223 for someone to shoot at foxes outside the effective range of the shooter or the calibre?

fish slapped wrote: »

There is no substitute for ft/lb and to shoot at a fox with a hornet at 300 meters is not good enough.

I disagree, power is NEVER a substitute for accuracy. If a shooter is capable of putting a hornet round into the right place 99% of the time at 300 yards then a hornet is a suitable calibre for that shooter at that range.

the 223 is not a magic calibre

fish slapped

IMO, Yes accuracy is vital but we do not hit exactly where we aim 100% of the time, so what I am saying is that if your 2" out with a .223 you have a better chance of killing than with a hornet, because of the extra energy dump into the body cavity. By shooting AT foxes I mean these guys trying to shoot foxes at 200 meters with a .22lr or beyond 300 meters with a hornet. I don't believe that night when lamping somebody with a hornet and a 150 meter Zero ( this is common zero for a hornet) can accurately estimate the range of a fox at 300 meters and allow the 24" of drop needed and place a perfect heart/lung shot, because there's only 147 ft/lbs left at this range. where as a .223 with a 200 meter zero (again a common zero for this caliber) could allow for a 6" drop for 300 meters and place a chest shot that would be reasonably sure of a kill with the 450 ft/lbs of energy left at that range, which is what the hornet has at 100 meters.

I don't think many people could justify a shot at a fox at that range at night wit a hornet.

Theoritically it may well be possible but in the field common sense must prevail.

Could I ask have you foxed fox a period of time with both calibers?

bunny shooter

fish slapped wrote: »

.....................Could I ask have you foxed fox a period of time with both calibers?

Good question and I am glad you asked me that

I have used the following calibres on foxes .22lr, .17hmr, .22wmr, .22 hornet, .17 Rem, .204 Ruger, .223 Rem, .220 swift :eek:

ALL are more than capable of killing foxes humanely. If I had to shoot foxes at 300 yards, which to be honest I haven't had to do too often, most foxes I've shot have been within 30 - 100 yards night & day, maybe I'm better at calling them than you :P I would opt for the .204 Ruger or the .220 swift. IMO 223 is no good past approx 220-230 yards

For the record my current foxing calibres are 22 hornet and 17 rem, 22lr if I meet foxy and he's in range too

As for shooting foxes at 300 yards at night under a lamp I never shoot past 100-150 (the bottom of the beam on my lamp hits the ground at approx 100 yards) at night target recognition is too difficult IMO even with a good lamp. A lot of farmers dogs and livestock including horses have been shot around my area by yahoos shooting at eyes at these kinds of distances

fish slapped

Fair enough your may be sensible, but there are those out there that do push the limit of the caliber and go beyond it and all I am saying is the hornets limit is a lot less than the 223. The 223 is also more than capable for a fox past 220 meters and is still super sonic out past 400 meters.

Also if using a 40 BT round in .223 similar to the .204 there is very little difference in the ballistics.

As for calling foxes into closer ranges if you can call them into 30 meters the there are less of these idiots shooting AT them beyond their ability or their rifles ability as most of the foxes in my ares are getting lamp shy and have to be taken between 150 and 220 meters and for this the .223 is better suited than the hornet.

If all the foxes you shoot are under 100 meters all your rifles are up to the job and you need not worry about those of us that need a caliber up to the task of longer range foxes.

I would never shoot at a pair of eyes, if that is what your implying :mad:, and target recognition is vital, but not impossible beyond your 100 meters.

cavan shooter

I have a 22 hornet which I am well happy with, it is not a 3oo yard gun but will successfully take foxes out to 150-180 yrds. That is a long distance at night under a lamp. I will always call them in as close as I can get them

The bullet drops off significantly after 100 yrds and to have it hitting 200 yrds carrying 197 ft-lbs, you have to zero about 3 inches high at 100 yards. Which IMO is a lot when you consider the kill zone on the fox.

I have found using the hornady rounds that a more sensible approach is to zero the hornet 2 inches high at 100, this allows for successful shots

fish slapped

Cavan shooter, 150 to 180 is hornet territory but I would not go beyond that with confidence. I also call them in but I find a lot of foxes are lamp and call shy. I am sure there are occasions where the fox sat up at around 230 meters and you thought to your self "nope not worth the chance".

It's on occasions like this the larger caliber is useful, would you agree?

bunny shooter

fish slapped wrote: »

Fair enough your may be sensible, but there are those out there that do push the limit of the caliber and go beyond it

I am , very sensible while shooting though not always here :P

fish slapped wrote: »

and all I am saying is the hornets limit is a lot less than the 223.

Maybe depends on the nut on the butt

fish slapped wrote: »

The 223 is also more than capable for a fox past 220 meters and is still super sonic out past 400 meters.

Again depends on the nut on the butt

fish slapped wrote: »

Also if using a 40 BT round in .223 similar to the .204 there is very little difference in the ballistics.

On paper but NOT in reality. I was in Tullamore previously shooting at 300 yards and 204 ruger was far superior in every way to 223 with all bullet weights using both 1 in 9 twist and 1 in 12 twsit in 223

fish slapped wrote: »

As for calling foxes into closer ranges if you can call them into 30 meters the there are less of these idiots shooting AT them beyond their ability or their rifles ability as most of the foxes in my ares are getting lamp shy and have to be taken between 150 and 220 meters and for this the .223 is better suited than the hornet.

As stated above we I have idiots shooting in my area too. If I find lamp shy foxes I use another way to control them eg lay out bait and wait in early morning or late evening for a few days, always works

fish slapped wrote: »

If all the foxes you shoot are under 100 meters all your rifles are up to the job and you need not worry about those of us that need a caliber up to the task of longer range foxes.

If I need to shoot at long range I have the 17 Rem I'm very lucky I have a choice

fish slapped wrote: »

I would never shoot at a pair of eyes, if that is what your implying :mad:, and target recognition is vital, but not impossible beyond your 100 meters.

Where did I imply you did shoot at eyes? I stated that in my area certain yahoos are at it. This is a fact. If you are one of them then I stand by my comment, but if your not, don't claim I said you were :rolleyes:

It might not be impossible. It is not as easy though. As you say it is vital. If there is ANY doubt for me, no matter how small, at whatever range, I don't squeeze the trigger.

bunny shooter

fish slapped wrote: »

Cavan shooter, 150 to 180 is hornet territory but I would not go beyond that with confidence.

That may be your limit but it may not be someone elses. Maybe other people are a better shot than you?

cavan shooter

True very true, Plenty of Buffalo Bills and Annie Oakleys out there...:D,

As for 223 great gun but I'm happy with the hornet serious damage on foxes using hornady rounds.

If I was to buy a bigger rifle tomorrow, then it would be a 204 Ruger, love that gun pity the ammo is so pricey.:rolleyes:

fish slapped

bunny shooter wrote: »

That may be your limit but it may not be someone elses. Maybe other people are a better shot than you?

I would have to say I would not have confidance in my ability to correctly place the shot for a clean kill beyond 200 meters with a hornet. but I would say its better to know your limits and respect them, and thats why I use the flatter shooting .223 as its easier to estimate drop when your only dealing with 2 or 3 inches instead of 16 or 18 inches.

cavan shooter

For information purposes only, someone might find it useful

The hornet drops off quick but not too quick. see below

if using 35grn Honady v max bulletts in 22 hornet the following approximate ballistics apply:

3 inches high at 100 yrds spot on at 200 yrds and 3 inches low at 225 yrds

zero at 100 yrds gives a drop of 1.6 inches at 150 yrds and 6 inches at 200 yrds.

My set up at present with the Hornet 2 inches high at 100 yrds gives 2 inches low at 200 yrds.

The 223 will out shoot a Hornet. But the hornet is a lovely old timer and very capable of doing the task required of it once you respect its limits.

fish slapped

.22 Hornet with 100 meter zero and 45 gr. soft point :
range ---Vel. feet P/S---Drop---Energy Ft/Lb
muzzle

---

2690...............0.0

---

723
50 m

---

2384...............0.0

---

568
100 m

---

2098..............Zero

---

440
150 m

---

1834............- 2.0"

---

336
200 m

---

1593............- 6.6"

---

254
250 m

---

1383............- 14.7"

---

191
300 m

---

1211............- 27.3"

---

147

.223 rem with 200 meter zero and 43 gr speer tnt:

range----Vel. feet P/S----Drop

---

Energy Ft/Lb
muzzle

---

3600...........0.0

---

1238
50 m

---

3244..........0.3"

---

1005
100 m

---

2916..........1.3"

---

812
150 m

---

2611..........1.3"

---

651
200 m

---

2325.........zero

---

516
250 m

---

2058........- 2.9"

---

405
300 m

---

1810........- 7.9"

---

313

Here's a comparison. Hope it helps anyone making a decision.

I would say its cheaper to feed a rifle .223 ammo as there is a wider selection and a you can always go budget ammo UMC 45gr HP 20 rounds for €12.

PJ Hunter

fish slapped wrote: »

I would have to say I would not have confidance in my ability to correctly place the shot for a clean kill beyond 200 meters with a hornet. but I would say its better to know your limits and respect them, and thats why I use the flatter shooting .223 as its easier to estimate drop when your only dealing with 2 or 3 inches instead of 16 or 18 inches.

243 remington700:p



A man's got to know his limitations. This is a .243 Winchester, the most powerful vermin rifle in the world. It can take a vermins head clean off. You've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Barry Callahan.

fish slapped

What price are .243 rounds 58gr B/T €€€€

PJ Hunter

fish slapped wrote: »

What price are .243 rounds 58gr B/T €€€€

Dearer than 223 or 220 hornet, cheaper, if one rifle can serve both your vermin and stalking needs.

fish slapped

Yes indeed but, would you use the same bullet weight and construction bor both fox and deer, perhaps 80 H/P?

fish slapped

The comparision of drop can best be see here in the attachment, all zeroed at 200 meters.

Hope the att. works.

pm.

PJ Hunter wrote: »

243 remington:p



A man's got to know his limitations. This is a .243 Winchester, the most powerful vermin rifle in the world. It can take a vermins head clean off. You've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Barry Callahan.

i use my styer .243 using federal 70gr nosler bt €32 for 20 rounds, what a great round for long shots

fish slapped

Is that for both fox and deer?

PJ Hunter

fish slapped wrote: »

Is that for both fox and deer?

Choice of Federal 243 Rounds.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=216 55g vermin

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=215 70g vermin

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=589 85g game

fish slapped

I am just wondering weather you rezero each time you go for a fox or deer or if you use 1 round for both and if so what do you find most versitile?

jwshooter

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Choice of Federal 243 Rounds.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=216 55g vermin

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=215 70g vermin

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=589 85g game

federal do 9 different bullets from 55 gr to 95 gr for the 243 win

pm.

fish slapped wrote: »

Is that for both fox and deer?

just for Mr.Fox