My thoughts on vegetarianism...

AARRRGH

Hi all

I was wondering if you guys can give me some input on this.

I have been toying with the idea of becoming a vegetarian for quite some time. I do it for short periods, and then return to my meat eating ways (due to convenience, being constantly hungry, etc.)

I have serious issues when it comes to eating meat though. I know the animals do not want to die, and I feel very bad knowing I am participating in their suffering.

However... I have been trying to decide if we're "supposed" to eat meat. As in, is the food chain just a part of life? There does seem to be something quite natural about a family having a bit of land and some animals which they use for milk, cheese and eventually meat. You know, like the way life was before all the intensive farming nonsense. So I do feel eating "free range" meat might be close to the way we're supposed to eat.

Another reason I think we're possibly supposed to eat meat is because, in general, those who eat a lot of animals get bigger and stronger. For example, when I go through vegetarian phases I get slimmer and slimmer (even if I lift weights), whereas at the moment I am eating a lot of meat (and lifting weights) and I am getting very big/muscular. So it seems meat eaters become more strong and dominant.

So basically what I'm saying is... it seems awfully cruel to eat meat... yet at the same time it seems like we've forever been eating meat, at least free range meat, and meat eaters tend to be bigger and stronger, and that's an important part of life (in my opinion, at least.)

...

I'm not really sure why I'm posting this. I guess I'm hoping some people can help influence my thinking or sway me more towards vegetarianism or meat eating.

Thanks!

raah!

If you're talkin' evolutionarily advantageous, then you could just as easily write off any kind of moral behaviour which detracts from you propogating your genes. That's all your "supposed" to do.

It doesn't make sense to give money to charities, when you could keep this money and use it to buy a condom with a hole in it.... Unless you are using this charitable act to trick someone into having sex with you of course

However if you are talking about "supposed" from another point of view then I don't know. I don't think you are though.

biZrb

If you are losing weight and constantly hungry when you are vegetarian you might not be eating the right sort of foods. You cannot give up meat and replace it with nothing, you need to get the nutrients from something else.
It may not be the vegetarian diet thats wrong but your way of being a vegetarian.

I'm living fine with out meat and animal products, so I don't really care if we humans are meant to eat meat, the way it is right now, its not an industry I want to support.

Macha

Hi AARRRGH,

John Berardi is doing a vegetarian trial for a month at the moment. His sample menu is below. Things to note:

He trains pretty much every day so can handle a higher carb intake and his measurements are:

Total Body Fat - 5.5%
Body Weight - 180lbs

Before Breakfast
5 tablets BCAA (Biotest - 5g total)
2 capsules Resveratrol (Biotest)
1 multi-vitamin (Genuine Health)
1 tablet vitamin D (Webber Naturals - 1000IU total)
1 serving sublingual B-12
500 ml water

Breakfast
3 whole eggs with 1 slice cheese
2 slices sprouted grain bread
1 cup vegetables
500 ml water
1 cup green tea

Snack #1
2 cups home-made granola (mix includes pumpkin seeds, unsweetened coconut, whole oats, almonds, pecans, cashews, pistachios, and dried fruit)
1 tbsp honey
1 cup unsweetened soy milk

Lunch
1/2 cup home-made hummus
2 whole wheat tortillas
1 cup veggies
1/2 cup mixed beans (not canned)
1 sweet potato with cinnamon on top

Snack #2
2 cups home-made granola (mix includes pumpkin seeds, unsweetened coconut, whole oats, almonds, pecans, cashews, pistachios, and dried fruit)
1 tbsp honey
1 cup unsweetened soy milk

Workout Drink
2 tsp BCAA (Xtreme Formulations - 14g total)
2 servings carbohydrate (Avant Labs - 22g total)
1000ml water

After Workout
1 cup mixed beans
1 cup quinoa (measured uncooked)
2 cups green veggies
2 cloves garlic
1 tbsp olive oil
1 tbsp flavored flax oil
1 tbsp curry powder
1 multi-vitamin (Genuine Health)
1 tablet vitamin D (Webber Naturals - 1000IU total)

Bedtime Snack
2 scoops protein (Genuine Health Vegan)
1 scoop greens (Genuine Health Perfect Skin)
Handful raw nuts
1 natural peanut butter and honey sandwich on 1 slice sprouted grain bread

Hope it helps!

I know the feeling of being conflicted between wanting to give up meat but also achieve your fitness goals. My own compromise is eating only free-range chicken at home and any high-welfare, locally sourced meat when I'm out. Fish is out totally (but that's mainly for environmental reasons)

Nature Boy

If you agree with eating animals but not intensive farming, I don't think vegetarianism is for you. Just eat free range meat. If you're hungry all the time try replacing meat with Initation meat like Quorn.

monellia

Who says we need to be big and muscular to be dominant? The mountain goat is skinny and agile, so it can jump from rock to rock, avoiding predators and grasing on the best grass. We might have needed the excess bulk thousands of years ago when we had to adapt differently to our environment, but now that our environment has changed so too has our dietary needs. We have evolved beyond the need to eat animals. One thing that seperates humans from animals is that we can tell the difference between injury and insult. Don't you think that with that comes a responsibility to know not to harm living things? And just because your body supposedly “craves” meat, doesn’t mean you need it. If you craved junk food, does that mean you need junk food? Similarly, should you take heroin because your body craves it?

If your vegetarianism coincided with you turning into a twig, then chances are you weren’t eating the right foods. You can easily meet your nutritional requirements by including in your diet protein-rich foods such as beans, lentils, tofu and nuts, as well as foods fortified with the vitamin B12.

Mentalmiss

http://www.thegardendiet.com/storm.html

http://www.charliesgym.info/page4.php

Check out these 2 guys. They do not feel that they have to eat meat.

Monkey61

Okay here's how I see it. I've just become a vegan because I can't handle the idea of animals suffering and have read enough horror stories about animal cruelty in the dairy and meat industries.

However, if I had a couple of my own chickens in the back garden with loads of room to run about and I gave them food and shelter and read them bedtime stories every night and they were perfectly happy - then I wouldn't have a problem with eating their eggs. Ditto if I had my own pet cow and somebody who was more knowledgeable in these matters then me could promise me that it didn't mind being milked in the mornings - I would drink the milk and make cheese and stuff.

As far as meat goes, I don't have as much of a problem with the idea of hunting animals in the wild for food - as long as they were shot in the head from a distance and didn't suffer any pain or stress. That's in theory of course. I probably couldn't do it myself because I know we don't need to eat meat to live and it would seem a bit selfish. That would fit more into the food chain idea with everyone having a sporting chance. I just can't stand the barbarism of an animal living in captivity and being herded onto a lorry and shipped off to an abattoir to be killed on a conveyor belt. Eek.

On a lighter note though...if you are constantly starving and losing weight you are most definitely not eating the right foods. With loads of protein and good fats you would be fine!

biZrb

Monkey61 wrote: »

However, if I had a couple of my own chickens in the back garden with loads of room to run about and I gave them food and shelter and read them bedtime stories every night and they were perfectly happy - then I wouldn't have a problem with eating their eggs. Ditto if I had my own pet cow and somebody who was more knowledgeable in these matters then me could promise me that it didn't mind being milked in the mornings - I would drink the milk and make cheese and stuff.

I feel the same about eating eggs from hens that are also my pets, you can even rescue battery hens and home them, how cool would that be?

Monkey61

biZrb wrote: »

I feel the same about eating eggs from hens that are also my pets, you can even rescue battery hens and home them, how cool would that be?

Wowee that would be incredible! Definitely on my to do list now. Although how could you ever stop? I'd end up with more hens than the battery farmer.

raah!

mrrm, I've always wondered why people think 'suffering' is so much worse than death. Why is killing a suffering rabbit the humane thing to do? What if the rabbit wants it's last few seconds of life?. If I was a suffereing rabbit, I'd want to live those extra few seconds, it's pain, sure but you'd still be alive.

In fact, there's a french saying "plutot suffrir que mourir" which means "better to suffer than to die". I think killing anything when you don't have to is objectionable. But it seems this is out of tune with the times... what with all these euthanasias and all that.

ztoical

raah! wrote: »

In fact, there's a french saying "plutot suffrir que mourir" which means "better to suffer than to die". I think killing anything when you don't have to is objectionable. But it seems this is out of tune with the times... what with all these euthanasias and all that.

have you ever had a pet be in such pain that it had to be put down? When I was much younger I had a puppy get hit by a car and the vet wanted to put her down but as my mum wasn't around and there was only me there I refused to let him, I sat up all night watching her suffer and wished I'd listened to the vet, I don't care if she was alive, she was in such pain it broke my heart.

Why not ask the people who fight for the right to die, those who are in pain every day of their lives, ask them if it is better to suffer then to die. What is the point of being alive if your in such pain you can't do anything with that life?

raah!

Yes I have, although I disagreed with the "had to be put down" part, my dog had cancer and was in a pretty bad state, and I spent many a night sitting next to him if I would hear him yelping and stuff, but he would always manage a tail wag or whatever when he saw me. He was still able to be happy even in all that pain.

The thing is, those people chose to die themselves, that's not someone else making the decision for them.And it would be a bit pointless asking them, if they are "fighting for the right to die" then obviously they woudl rather die. Anyway, my dog was put down, but no-one ever consulted him. I objected to this. It is not so black and white you see.

That last question would depend on the person I guess. Or animal

And you can always give them loads of morphine too. Is another option.

Tar.Aldarion

biZrb wrote: »

I feel the same about eating eggs from hens that are also my pets, you can even rescue battery hens and home them, how cool would that be?

It was either da vinci or newton that used to buy chickens and set them free. Can't recall which.

Hi all

I was wondering if you guys can give me some input on this.

I have been toying with the idea of becoming a vegetarian for quite some time. I do it for short periods, and then return to my meat eating ways (due to convenience, being constantly hungry, etc.)

I have serious issues when it comes to eating meat though. I know the animals do not want to die, and I feel very bad knowing I am participating in their suffering.

Well this is why I am one, they do not want to die, we hurt them for simply our pleasure. Which I think does not make us the best of what we can be.

However... I have been trying to decide if we're "supposed" to eat meat. As in, is the food chain just a part of life? There does seem to be something quite natural about a family having a bit of land and some animals which they use for milk, cheese and eventually meat. You know, like the way life was before all the intensive farming nonsense. So I do feel eating "free range" meat might be close to the way we're supposed to eat.

Supposed to does not really come into it for us, in my opinion. The point with humans is that we are supposed to be much more intelligent than animals and therefore make better informed decisions. We do not murder, we do not rape, like our ancestors. We have risen above that. Much the same with killing things needlessly. I think we should look after things that are less capable than us rather than just take advantage of them because we can.
We have a responsibility that we do not live up to.

Another reason I think we're possibly supposed to eat meat is because, in general, those who eat a lot of animals get bigger and stronger. For example, when I go through vegetarian phases I get slimmer and slimmer (even if I lift weights), whereas at the moment I am eating a lot of meat (and lifting weights) and I am getting very big/muscular. So it seems meat eaters become more strong and dominant.

We may have need meat thousands of years ago to become big and strong because food was not abundant for us, as it is now. We needed it to survive, I would have eaten it too, now we do not. There are plenty of vegetarian body builders and such nowadays and you can get everything you possibly need without eating meat, so if you become malased due to vegetarianism, it's just that you don't know what to eat yet. When you do you can be a big strong vegetarian like me, heh

http://www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com/index2.html

So basically what I'm saying is... it seems awfully cruel to eat meat... yet at the same time it seems like we've forever been eating meat, We started eating meat when we at least free range meat, and meat eaters tend to be bigger and stronger, and that's an important part of life (in my opinion, at least.)

...

We have eaten meat a long time, we have also murdered, raped and been nothing but barbarians for just as long. Just 100 years ago black people were nothing more than mere animals for slavery, women were there to be used and so on. It's only recent they can even vote. We have the impunity to call an era the dark ages, when we are not much better ourselves, even now.

I'm not really sure why I'm posting this. I guess I'm hoping some people can help influence my thinking or sway me more towards vegetarianism or meat eating.

Eat what you want.I gave up meat at 18 because I can not bear what is needless murder in my eyes. Living in the country with these animals, seeing their unique personalities, seeing them happy, seeing them depressed, scared, anxious, and then chewing on their bones? Doesn't sit with me. Others disagree, nobody can tell you what to do and what you think is right but you.

dynastygal

Eating meat doesn't equate to - big and strong...look at most of the western world population in well off countries...big, fat, full of heart problems, cancer, etc. Also, if meat = big and strong, why would there be vegan athletes and body builders?

Also not sure what 'happy meat' has over the the factory farms. All die in the same slaughterhouse, all suffer before and probably throughout death. All die for nothing more than greed and hedonistic mastication. If a slave lives happily does it make slavery ok? If the murderer allows for their victim to be happy before they die, does it make it ok? No. No matter what the life, murder is murder, no matter what life an animal or person has experienced before death.

_blank_

Right, this is a Vegetarian Forum, not a Cat Killing Forum, let's keep it that way

Tar.Aldarion

Keep it on topic(or near it!), further odd topic posts deleted.

sorella

We have done this; but not always as easy as it looks; predators, bylaws and they are a tie.

But a delight to watch as they learn to peck and stratch again; and the eggs are delicious.


We

Monkey61 wrote: »

Wowee that would be incredible! Definitely on my to do list now. Although how could you ever stop? I'd end up with more hens than the battery farmer.

t-ha

AAAARGH (not sure if I have the right amount of 'A's, but anyway)

I think I see where you're coming from, and it's what I would refer to as ethical eating. You wouldn't be entirely opposed to eating animal products where those animals are well looked after, but would probably have a massive problem eating soy beans that were grown on land unethically cleared of rainforest where multitudes of animals had lost habitat.

The only advice I can give is that there are no absolutes. Periods of vegetarianism are better than no vegetarianism. Eating locally produced, organic food sometimes is better than never doing it. Don't kill yourself thinking it's all or nothing.

Also, as alot of people have mentioned already, you shouldn't feel so bad on your vegetarian diets. Why not set up an account on a nutrient tracker site and mke sure you're getting everything you need.

As for nature, and us eating animals historically, that is certaintly true in Ireland (but not neccessarily everywhere) but only the richest would have been able to eat meat with the kind of regularity most people eat it nowdays. And, although I'm probably getting a bit too deep into philosophy here, the simple fact is that what a species has historically eaten gives no moral compass. We can sustain ourselves without eating meat and we know that, so saying that we should eat it anyway because of our ancestry is ridiculous. It's funny that you rarely see the same argument applied to curtail someone's dietary choices (well my ancestors didn't have citrus fruits, exotic wines, pasta carbonara etc. so I'm not eating it).

cardio,shoot me

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It was either da vinci or newton that used to buy chickens and set them free. Can't recall which.

it was da vinci, he also freed caged birds.