Choosing a Mic Pre?

condra

Does anyone here know anything about Mic Preamps?

That is one area I have very little experience with.

I have a decent mic and soundcard (Mbox Pro, AKG C 4000 but have often read about the importance of a Mic Pre to get the best results.

What confuses me is the seemingly conflicting advice I have read. -

While one person might say, there is no point spending less than 500 on a Mic Pre because the quality doesn't increase enough until the higher price range, other people will say there's a huge difference between different budget Mic Pres, and some will say flat out that there's no point using a budget Mic Pre!

My budget is anywhere between about 50 and 500 euro. I would like to get something that will make a noticable improvement to my mic recordings, something that is used on "professional" recordings, and something that offers value for money.

I'm not sure what products and brand names are respected in the world of Mic Pres.

Any thoughts on this would be super great!



PS- There's a guy on Gumtree selling a Joemeek MQ3, but I've no idea if it's any use, or what it's worth. Any thoughts on that would also be appreciated.

teamdresch

Figure out what you can afford then borrow/rent all the alternatives and see if you like how they sound.

Jimbo808

To me this bridges the gap between entry level and quality. Amazing little box.

http://www.focusrite.com/products/isa/isa_one/

I do agree with the statement that there is little or no difference down at entry level Pre's. All equally Shyte.

J*808

anders

What will you be recording with your AKG C4000. The purpose of the mic pre should decide the choice of the pre IMO. Some pres are better at some things than others. An other question is, are you looking for a particular sound or do you want an as transparent pre as possible.

I got a second hand Apogee MiniME which has two nice transparent pres and converters for less than 500 euro and I've been very happy with it. The down side is that it doesn't have a pad or high pass filter. I don't really miss the HPF too much but the lack of a PAD has been a problem. I've fixed that by building my own inline pads or then by using microphones with built in pads.

Some other interesting mic pres are the Sontronict Sonora http://www.sontronics.com/sonora.htm and DAV Electronics BG1 http://www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm. Unfortunately I don't have any personal experience of the Sonora but I've briefly had the opportunity to use the BG1 and it seemed like a very solid piece of equipment.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

your interface needs line ins that bypass the internal pres for a start - so check that first - some dont let you do that .

then you need to decide if you want clean and transparent ( signal in = signal out )
or one that colors the signal abit in a nice way ( growls the mids like and api , or thicken low end like a neve , or does a bit of both like the pacifica ) - note these are subtle effects not in your face effects on the sound.

a good pre will bsically give you much nicer realism , particularly in tranisents ( the snap or click of a snare or kick or tom for example )
and the tracks mix better because the signal is more in "focus " so each tracks pokes out nicely in the mix .
cheap pres tend to smear the tracks into a bit of a mush in the mix.
this is alot more noticelable with rock and pop tracks than acoustic / folky tracks

if you are tracking drums you HAVE to use good pres - as the kit image will otherwise will be smeary .


the DAV bg 1 is a superb pre for around 600 euro - stereo, very clean , it passes what it gets in , ( ie ****e in ****e out , good in good out ) no color or change to the signal
it performs well outsides its cost .- you will notice a SIGNIFICANT difference with this one .

also the RNP really nice preamp - i find this one seems to thicken the mids a bit for a clean pre - but it is also good - about 450 euro stereo

i found the mackie onyx stock pres are also pretty good - kinda between the DAV and the RNP in sound also clean


I now use the dav bg1
and the a designs pacifica ( but this was 1500 euro - its pretty special , kinda of an API / NEVE cross in sound. )

i would go with a clean pre to begin with

you wont be sorry though - it makes a subtle but big difference in the end result.

Jimbo808

Yea I've heard that Apogee Pres/Converters are super translucent. Anyone have any experience with this?

J*808

(If this hijacks the OP i'll start a new post)

i57dwun4yb1pt8

apogee is mac only though

Jimbo808

Yeah, something I'm pretty happy about! *Bows to Steve Jobs shrine*

J*808

anders

The Apogee MiniME can be used as a standalone pre with S/PDIF and AES digital out (no analogue outs). I've been using it on pretty much everything since it's the best pre I have at the moment. There's also a Apogee pre without converters in the Mini series.

Compared to e.g. the "Focusrite" pres used in DigiDesigns Control 24, using the Apogee is like taking off a thick blanket or duvet of the mics. The sound is much more open and clear. I couldn't believe the difference. Granted, I haven't hear anything good about the Control 24 pres so almost anything would probably be better. They should be fairly similar to the Mbox pres though.

fitz

As people are saying, depends what you want it for.
The ISA is a nice piece of kit, and I can personally recommend the Universal Audio Solo 610, though it might be a bit out of your price range. Talk to Brewer about the Audient Mico:

http://www.audient.com/audient/node/23

I think you'll find it difficult to get better value for your money than that. If I'm right, it's within your price-range.
With the HMX feature, you get the option to dial in some "character" if and when you want, but you can be sure this is pro quality circuitry. I'm thinking of picking one up myself at some stage this year.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

apogee is mac only though

Not quite right Apogee Duet, Symphony and Ensemble are mac only .

The Rosettas and AD16x, DA16x can be used with PCs.

studiorat

The problem you are going to have Womma is that the signal is still going through your M-box. As far as I can tell the mic and line amp are pretty much the came thing regarding signal flow. So you are still going through that chain.

If I were you I'd go for something with a digital output so as to bypass the analog chain in the M-Box by going digitally in to it.

I've been using a Focusrite ISA 4"something or other" recently, it has switchable impedance that make subtle but useful differences depending on the mic you are using very nice but very expensive I'd reckon. My usual tool is the ISA 215...

I would hold out for a little longer, getting an expensive mic amp is only going to show up how bad the AKG 4000 is !!! If you must, the SPL Channel One is a very useful box good EQ and a compressor and Gate, I've used it a couple of times and was always pleased with how well it performed.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

The problem you are going to have Womma is that the signal is still going through your M-box. As far as I can tell the mic and line amp are pretty much the came thing regarding signal flow. So you are still going through that chain.

If I were you I'd go for something with a digital output so as to bypass the analog chain in the M-Box by going digitally in to it.

As always the Rat speaks the truth ....

fitz

Yup.
That's why I suggested the Mico. Can go out digitally and into the mbox that way. You mentioned the strength of the Mico in that regard a while back Brewer.

I'd agree with Dave, I would expect that if you go with a nice pre, you'll hear an improvement, but you'll probably end up deciding to replace the AKG too.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Yup.
That's why I suggested the Mico. Can go out digitally and into the mbox that way. You mentioned the strength of the Mico in that regard a while back Brewer.

I'd agree with Dave, I would expect that if you go with a nice pre, you'll hear an improvement, but you'll probably end up deciding to replace the AKG too.

The Mico is, in my opinion, much better than the price would suggest it should be.

condra

Thanks for the responses lads. I really do appreciate you taking time out to reply and share your knowledge.

Man, I didn't think people would be so hard on the C4000. I spent 250 on that mic, and it sounds pretty good to me so far.

The mic is used pretty much for vocals, and I mostly do electronic music, so a modest standard is fine for me. I won't be recording Mariah Carey any time soon.

That Audient Mico seems a good option, but 777 new from Thomann is way out of my range right now. I'll keep en eye for similar products on adverts.ie too.
I'm in no major hurry, but it's something I need to get my head around. Either way, I wouldn't like to spend more than 500 on a Mic Pre.

Funnily enough when I bought the MBox2Pro, it was the XLR inputs, rather than the digital input, that I thought would come in most handy. I'll definitely try to get something with a digital output.

If there is such thing as an interface with impressive Mic Pres, I would consider selling the MBox and upgrading, but for the meanwhile it seems I'm better off getting a dedicated Mic Pre.

fitz

777!!! Holy crap...

€432 plus shipping from Digital Village, that's why I suggested it:

http://www.dv247.com/invt/49838/

I'm sure Brewer'd look after you...

condra

fitz wrote: »

777!!! Holy crap...
€432 plus shipping from Digital Village, that's why I suggested it:

HoLY sHH-

I always just presumed that Thomann have good prices on everything. Not anymore. Thanks for the eye opener :eek:

fitz

Yeah, I'd always check Digital Village as well as Thomann....more so in fact. They've been cheaper on a lot of things for a while now.

But for a Mico, I'd be sending my money Brewers way, supporting the local guys.

studiorat

If the Mico has a digi output that could be worth looking at. I used one before and really liked the vari phase thing for guitar amps. I'd also seriously consider the Focusrite ISA mic pre someone here linked to that's a nice piece of kit.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i will throw my oar in and say get a TC electronics konnekt system

condra

Just to clarify, is the general consensus that the preamps on an Apogee Duet (389 thomann), or a Konnect 8 (299 thomann), would be superior to an MBox 2 Pro (699 thomann) ?

Is it because Pro Tools makes up part of the price of the MBox, or that the Focusrite preamps in the MB2P suck? or both?

studiorat

Just because it's made by focusrite doesn't mean it's good, same goes for any of the big manufacturers. I doubt if there is really that much difference between them. The M-box has more features and is bundled with the software hence the price difference.

You'll notice the marketing in each mentions their flagship products in some way, that's about the only connection these products have with the high end stuff.

Each company decides they are going to make a product to fit into a certain price range and the component choice used in the design reflects this, it's the quality of these components that reflect the quality of the product in general. I really don't think there is a huge difference between them.

But these aren't mic pre-amps.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

the duet is very good , but its two track only , and as the others have said , focusrite arent always good , some of thier stuff is avergae at best .


the tc interfaces are mainly just good converters ( in the same range as the RME / apogee prosumer stuff ) - not as good obviously as the top range apogee stuff etc. but it would blow an m box off the planet.

i was using a mackie onyx firewire and the quality was immediately noticeable - not knocking the mackie - it was a great setup- but to bulky
for me and i couldnt line in direct to the converter.

whats good about TC and other better systems is the line ins go direct to the converter -

which is why i bought it , so i could use external pres and avoid the
tc internal analog audio.

this again improved the sound a huge amount .

but they have also got good preamps in them - just not great
I use the internal pres for hihat , toms , undersnare, anything not critical .
they are as good as the mackie onyx pres, maybe just a tad thinner sounding in the mid area.

i use external hi qual pres for vocals, bass, guits, kick , snare , overheads
all direct into the tc converters line ins .


depends how many tracks you want , but a good converter with direct line ins with a good pre in will radically improve your sound- so listen to the lads above .

something like the konnekt 8 and a DAV bg1 would be a great start
most tc's also have great midi contorllers


some NOTEs : if you do this - you will realise your monitors are not cutting it as well, so be prepared ;-) .

also its not pro tools friendly - , i use cubase and reaper.

also - TC has had issues with drivers - they are still fixing some bugs - Ive had a few - but its all working well now .
im ok with this , as the sound is superb and they do work hard to fix issues fast. ( im using the beat xp drivers at the mo and they are fine ) .


you are welcome to pm me and have

jtsuited

i'd say get an apogee duet.

very transparent, and extraordinary quality for the price.

ogy

mico looks really great! anyone have any opinions on how it would compare to two channels of ssl x rack preamps

PaulBrewer

I think seeing as the SSLs are twice-ish the price the comparison is unfair.

However as we're both SSL and Audient in Ireland you're very welcome to do a comparison yourself.

ogy

yeh thats a fair point, someday soon a great comparison will be done:)

condra

Thanks again for all the comments.

I've been doing a lot of reading, on Gear Slutz, articles etc, and I get the impression if I'm going to use a "Prosumer" interface without a seperate dedicated preamp, the step up from an Mbox Pro to a Duet or TC Konnekt wouldn't be that drastic.

There was a "deathmatch" between the MB2P and Duet on Gearslutz, and the difference between the recordings is subtle at best.

studiorat

womoma wrote: »

There was a "deathmatch" between the MB2P and Duet on Gearslutz, and the difference between the recordings is subtle at best.

Indeed but if you do say 24 of those recordings on the one song the difference builds up if you know what I mean. If I even know what I mean.

I always think it's like a F1 car or something, lots of tiny improvements along the way. Better still an olympic swimmer, shave a bit off here of there and you get that extra precentage.

I think I'm going mad Ted...

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Indeed but if you do say 24 of those recordings on the one song the difference builds up if you know what I mean. If I even know what I mean.

I always think it's like a F1 car or something, lots of tiny improvements along the way. Better still an olympic swimmer, shave a bit off here of there and you get that extra precentage.

I think I'm going mad Ted...

I agree with the Rat. My first experience of an external pre was a Focusrite ISA215 which on one chan compared to a chan of a DDA console didn't sound that different, however tracked up there was a world of difference ...

condra

Thanks again for all the feedback lads. I sold the MBox Pro and bought a Duet. For my purposes, it should do the job nicely.

I only got it twenty minutes ago and haven't tested the Mic Pres yet, but already there seems to be a subtle, but noticeable improvement in sound quality from my monitors just playing back tracks. (Converters?)

I try to avoid pretentious audiophile descriptions, but if I had to, I'd say the output from the Duet sounds a bit more "alive" in the top end.

I'm impressed by the Duet, but also have a new found respect for the potential of my modest (Event TR-6) monitoring setup. It's also nice to have my keyboards volume buttons back

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ahh nice , those are great yokes , id get one meself if i had a mac