help! cant refill my vokera boiler - wheres the filling loop?

Morpheus

hi

have vokera mynute 16e

cant locate the filling loop valve.
the return and flow pipes go straight into the wall on 90 degree elbows immediately below the boiler.

We only bought the house two years ago, trouble started when i tried to bleed air from the radiators (at the rads themselves) as one wasnt working due to being airlocked, the pressure dropped to zero on the boiler. ive had no problems up until now.

I know im looking for a silver flexi pipe with a moveable valve on it, removed the screws on the dial interface and lowered it, could see all the pipework, the red overflow switch, etc, saw a silver flexi pipe that has no tap type valve on it at all.

How in the name of all that is holy am I supposed to refill the system?

we checked the hot press and the attic and cant find anything.

your advice is much appreciated.

cheers!

mad m

Have you checked under kitchen sink?

Morpheus

yeah we had a look around there but couldnt see much, one pipe going to outside tap, hot and cold water pipe, one going to the dishwasher and one to the washer machine, also sink is miles away from the boiler, opposite end of the room... will give it another look but maybe ill need to post photos of my under-the-kitchen, the boiler itself and the hot press pipework?

Any other suggestions?

Pete67

It may be filled from the cold water storage tank in the attic, via a one-way valve (checkvalve) to prevent flow from the heating system back into the tank. This is fairly common in recently built houses, as it means the system tops up automatically to make up for minor leaks etc.

If so, the check valve may be sticking closed, or there may be another handvalve above or below it to isolate the supply to the heating system. These will most likely be located in the hot press.

rstans

I have a Vokera boiler and to fill mine I have a small flexible hose that screws onto a valve under the boiler (see attached pic).
It screws onto valve "A" which has three settings, ON, FILL, OFF.
On the other side it goes onto valve "B" which is just a regular valve.
Screw the hose to both.
You turn valve "A" to OFF before you do this or you'll spray water everywhere. Then turn it to "FILL" and open "B" till the boiler is pressurised, Turn "A" to OFF again and take hose off, making sure "B" is closed. Take the hose off, turn "A" to ON and enjoy the heat.

Morpheus

Contacted VOKERA they said there is no ability to do this on mine that I will have to search hot press, attic and even behind the sink...

Now all the pipes that come into the boiler do so from the wall behind it (6 ft above ground level) so I would assume that it would be silly to run a pipe coming from the attic, down into the kitchen right down to ground level and into sinks taps and washers etc and then climb that pipe back up 6 ft, run it around the kitchen wall into the boiler!?!?

This leaves my options limited to the attic and hot press in locating a valve with which to re-pressurise the system... just wondering could it be possible that such a valve is coming off a pipe in behind the upstairs bathroom sink and running across under the floors and down into the kitchen maybe?

What a nightmare.

Spocker

I have a 16E as well, and it's what Pete67 said, although mine fills from an additional, smaller tank beside the main water tank. All the valves etc are located in the hot press. AFAIR this is the only method of filling, it should auto top up.

Pete67

If there is a second smaller tank in the attic, check that the ballcock is not stuck up preventing water from filling the tank. There should be at least a few inches of water in the tank at all times.

Morpheus

Problem solved.

1/2 inch pipe in the hot press had a red wheel on it and under that was a Non Return Valve. We checked this and found it was locked and wasnt working properly. We got the valve cleaned and placed it back onto the pipe and "hey presto" were able to re pressurise the system!

Thanks so much to everyone who made suggestions!!!

Home now for a hot shower

Shades799

Well lad\lassies,

Another poor unfortunate here, same problem. Removed a radiator to plaster a hall, when I put it back up it was badly airlocked. I bled it and now the pressure in my pump (Vokera Mynute 14se) is down to 0 and the manual says it should be between 1 and 1.5. There is no filling loop on my system and my hotpress looks like the attached pics. It's f*cking baltic here since Thursday!!

Any ideas for me would be hugely appreciated!

http://www.twitpic.com/rmg5u
http://www.twitpic.com/rmg7m
http://www.twitpic.com/rmga7

I was messing around with dials to no avail. From what I've read in other posts I think the wheel that should do the job is number 3, but I can only get that to turn about 30 degrees. I have opened up number 4 a few times and some air comes out but no affect on the pump. Finally I've flicked number 6 a few times and I heard water flowing through the pipes but again no affect on the pump and now when I flick this leaver nothing happens.

I've also bled the radiators again but no affect.

I'd love some help lads. I'm stonewall broke coming up to Christmas and can't really afford a plumber!

Morpheus, is number 3 the one your talking about??

Thanks

If you have something like number 3 then thats the filling point, if you can't open it then you won't be able to fill it, good luck, Gary.

Shades799

Bugger, I was worried that was it. Ya I can't get any real turn out of it at all. Like I said about 30 degrees. Cheers for the reply anyway!

Pete67

Number 3 valve in your first pic is the one - it should be possible to turn the handle approx three full revolutions. They often stick and a reasonable amount of force may be required to move it. Don't forget it may be in either the open or closed position so don't assume anything - try slowly increasing the force on it in both directions until it moves. Anti-clockwise to open.

Below it is a check valve which only allows water to flow in one direction - it should have an arrow on the body which should be pointing down. They sometimes stick closed especially when supplied from a roof tank as there is not much pressure available to overcome the spring and force the valve open, especially if the diaphragm is sticking a bit.

Morpheus

hi,

yeah it was number 3 and took a bit of force to open it!!! by hand though, i didnt use any tools as leverage, i just got a good grip and turned and it finally moved.

you will instantly hear water flowing, suggest you get someone downstairs to stand at the dial on the heater and shout when it reaches 1.5 and then you turn it all the way off again

demanufactured

something im missing here lads, some of you are talking about re pressurizing these systems from a tank in the attic...surely there wouldnt be enough gravity pressure to pressurize a system to 1 or 1 and a half bar?

Pete67

Absolutely right - if the system is filled from a roof tank then the tank would need to be 15m above the boiler to achieve 1.5 bar. Unlikely in most houses!

To get that kind of pressure the system would need to be filled from the mains water supply. However may systems operate perfectly well at less than 0.5 bar pressure from a roof tank, as the system heats up the thermal expansion of the water causes a pressure rise.

sydthebeat

Can anyone fill me in to where the regulations exist for allowing / not allowing filling loops in pressurised heating systems??

Is this a building control issue, or is there "plumbers guidelines / best practise" etc....

I have heard from a few building control officers thats its a building regulation to have a detachable filling loop, and not feed a pressurised system from a non-return valvle in case the valve fails and the central heating water mixes with drinking water.....

any help greatly appreciated

ta

It's what manufactures would ask for in their manual for filling a pressurized system and they take it from UK water regs, which is sometimes used as the guidelines for installations requirements here and i would say it's good working practice, but i can't stop installers pumping the mains, so i don't know how well things are enforced here, Gary.

Tank fed semi sealed systems would require the cold feed to be open at all times, boilers for pressurized systems have not been designed with these systems in mind(gas anyway) and due to the low system pressure they have the safety devices for low pressure detection cut out of them by the installers, they will have no protection from lack of water, Gary.

items

sydthebeat wrote: »

Can anyone fill me in to where the regulations exist for allowing / not allowing filling loops in pressurised heating systems??

Is this a building control issue, or is there "plumbers guidelines / best practise" etc....

I have heard from a few building control officers thats its a building regulation to have a detachable filling loop, and not feed a pressurised system from a non-return valvle in case the valve fails and the central heating water mixes with drinking water.....

any help greatly appreciated

ta

Apart from board gas, plumbing and heating is very under regulated here. Our water system is broken up and controlled by either Co Council, Community group water schemes or no control at all (private well).

We have a mix of regulation between Irish building regulations and the UK regulation. Their is very little enforcement of regulation by any of the above, most cases when you have a new water meter fitted, who ever is supplying water will have a quick observation of plumbing / heating system. Some will let many things pass and others might not, all depends on person, which is the sad part, used to be a case where you slipped Co Council man 50 euro and he'll pass no remarks towards system. If house already has water supply then unfortunately its pretty much a free for all. Only time trouble arises is when problems are created requiring attention of insurance company, if insurance company spots any troublesome works against regulation those works wont be covered by policy.

Every other country I have visited will not allow a fixed connection of mains water to heating system. Reasons are obvious, heating water and bacteria in heating water can and do pass through any type of valve or non return valve.

I'll give you an idea how bad things are here, about 3 years ago I was fitting a new gas boiler in a newly built house, new water connection. Co council water division visited house. Boiler required 1 bar pressure minimum so I filled boiler from mains via a dedicated mains filling loop, loop disconnected. Co Council said I couldn't fill heating from mains, I had to install a mini heating (break tank) and pump to fill / pressurize heating.

A few months later I was working in a big site in a different county (well over 100 houses) all houses had a fixed mains connection to heating system. System filled by a PRV. PRV is a pressure reduce / restrict valve, most valves we set @ 1.5, any time heating system pressure dropped heating would re pressure automatically from mains via PRV. I took one of the PRV's fitted off and I could blow right through it from either side. PRV is not designed for filling heating systems, no idea how they are allowed to be used.

Heating filling loop is simple to use, no tools or experienced knowledge required to fill heating, hose can be connected / disconnected by hand. Only thing missing is pressure gauge, you have to buy gauge separate, their is a tapping for gauge on NRV body which attaches to heating side, best to fit gauge if filling loop is in hotpress, no running about reading boiler pressure.

antopanto

Pete67 wrote: »

It may be filled from the cold water storage tank in the attic, via a one-way valve (checkvalve) to prevent flow from the heating system back into the tank. This is fairly common in recently built houses, as it means the system tops up automatically to make up for minor leaks etc.

If so, the check valve may be sticking closed, or there may be another handvalve above or below it to isolate the supply to the heating system. These will most likely be located in the hot press.

I have the same problem with mine, I have looked in the attic, airing cupboard and the boiler both inside and below, and no sign of anything that could re pressurise the pressure to 1.5, any ideas

nessi

the filling loop is at the base of the boiler its a silver thread flexi pipe

Hoffmans

sydthebeat wrote: »

Can anyone fill me in to where the regulations exist for allowing / not allowing filling loops in pressurised heating systems??

Is this a building control issue, or is there "plumbers guidelines / best practise" etc....

I have heard from a few building control officers thats its a building regulation to have a detachable filling loop, and not feed a pressurised system from a non-return valvle in case the valve fails and the central heating water mixes with drinking water.....

any help greatly appreciated

ta

is .820

irishgatsu

hi,

i have a wokera mynute 20e and the pressure keeps going up. i've bled the rads a few times but no joy.
looking at the tread/photos, i can't locate valve i should close in my hot press as there also a pump (for extra pressure).
below pics from my hot press:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/opozzh60mkbmnx4/6qem1lQJAu
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/dip40h168f7x0fi/6RFFOPQbUT

thanks to all in advance for your help!

whizbang

Its the sterilization tape, the boiler is trying to get to sterilization pressure

i suspect its number 3, but what do you mean by going up ?

irishgatsu

I mean after bleeding the rad from 2+ to 1.3 bar, the pressure seems stable until the boiler starts up. Then even hours after cooling down, the pressure will have gained .2 bar. And so on.

Count_Hook

Hey folks, anyone know where the filling valve is on an Immergas Zeus mini boiler?
No flexible connector pipe visible, or attachments where it would go onto!!