Cork to Limerick direct rail link

norrie_1001

This link existed until dismantled by CIE in 60's. The main Cork to Dublin line branched off just after Charleville and headed north via Bruree, Croom and Patrickswell where it joined the Foynes line. The alignment from Charleville to Patrickswell is pretty much in tact and I wonder would it be feasable to open this up again and then you could have a Cork to Galway direct train service? I know in the current economic climate this will never happen but just wondering what people think?

Chris_533976

I've always said that a Cork to Galway rail service would be a reasonable idea as Cork to Galway is Bus Eireanns most popular route. Hourly buses 7 days a week. IE could get a slice of the pie.

Unfortunately you'd have to have a decent speed on the WRC to do this, which isnt going to happen.

What will happen though is the absurd situation of travelling Cork to Galway.
Cork - Limerick Junction on 1 train.
Limerick Junction - Limerick on a second.
Limerick - Galway on a third.

Its ridiculous because opening such a service would make IE some money and might actually make the WRC a little bit worthwhile.

corktina

i think the Croom to patrickswell section is pretty much the N20 now....:mad::(

The Word Is Bor

norrie_1001 wrote: »

The alignment from Charleville to Patrickswell is pretty much in tact

No it isn't. The line has been dismantled and the lands were handed back/sold to the adjacent landowners. Part of the old route is now within the emerging preferred route corridor of the M20.

dowlingm

the problem isn't the N20 - it's the N21 which lies across the old line.

As for the line itself, have a look using the OSI tool. A lot of it just isn't there any more between Bruree and Patrickswell.

The best use for that line would be light or heavy rail from Limerick through Raheen to Adare and a park and ride on the east side of Rathkeale - and given the news from Dell this week that seems even less of a prospect than last week.

The best way to improve Cork-Limerick-(Galway) in the short term would be

• getting the eastern platform built at Limerick Junction to permit more stops there
• getting more of Limerick-Limerick Junction double tracked and service more frequent/faster - the fastest Cork-Limerick time is about 1h26 but few services have such a short (4 minutes in this case) connection time and especially not in the Limerick-Cork direction so improvements are more likely with a faster Limerick-LJ time or a through train - and the latter would probably be made a stopper anyway.

Chris_533976

And start a medium term study into scrapping the ridiculous farce that is Limerick junction and having Cork - Dublin trains going VIA Limerick. Limerick Junction just shouldnt exist. In ANY other country, the line would run through Limerick.

Judgement Day

Chris_533976 wrote: »

And start a medium term study into scrapping the ridiculous farce that is Limerick junction and having Cork - Dublin trains going VIA Limerick. Limerick Junction just shouldnt exist. In ANY other country, the line would run through Limerick.

Don't understand what you are suggesting! How on earth would Cork/Dublin trains go via Limerick? Without doubt Limerick Junction needs a radical rethink but you must remember that its present layout/location is the result of the intersection of two seperate private concerns - the Great Southern & Western Railway and the Waterford & Limerick Railway.

A brand new station, north of the existing location, might be the answer but realistically the millions of Euros that this would cost would be better spent elsewhere.

dowlingm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

And start a medium term study into scrapping the ridiculous farce that is Limerick junction and having Cork - Dublin trains going VIA Limerick. Limerick Junction just shouldnt exist. In ANY other country, the line would run through Limerick.

With TGV Duplexes, I assume? :rolleyes:

corktina

Chris_533976 wrote: »

And start a medium term study into scrapping the ridiculous farce that is Limerick junction and having Cork - Dublin trains going VIA Limerick. Limerick Junction just shouldnt exist. In ANY other country, the line would run through Limerick.

Limerick Junction is just outside Tipperary Town...about 20 miles from Limerick...are you suggesting upgrading the line through Nenagh and Roscrea and sending the Dublin to Cork trians that way? at least an hour added to all journeys whichever way you think it should be done...

Chris_533976

I dont know, but something SHOULD be done about it. As it stands, there really is no such thing as rail travel between Cork and Limerick, and this situation will make Cork to Galway rail almost untenable too.

Lets face it, crazy as it sounds its a better idea than the WRC was.

Zoney

Actually, some timetabling could bring Limerick-Cork trains closer to 1hr30 instead of 2hrs. I say that, because some services are currently timetabled to be closer to 1hr 30. Best bet is probably to double track Limerick-Limerick Jctn and rearrange the platforms at Limerick Junction - might allow tighter scheduling of trains from Limerick to/from Cork/Dublin/Waterford. At 1hr30, it's far from ideal, but it would be enough to prove preferable to the bus, and certainly a preferable long-distance transport option for Cork-Galway.

Presumably the Foynes line will eventually some day see use as a commuter line out of Limerick, at least to Adare. If it ever is up and running again (and that is an outside chance really), it would be something to *subsequently* look at as regards reconnecting Patrickswell and Charleville via Croom.

corktina

these ideas do seem to be a sensible way of using existing facilities, although Im not sure the Adare idea will ever happen.having said that, the route should be safeguarded just incase.

extending the Cork Mallow shuttle as far as Lim Jnc and on to Limerick wouldnt seem to be too difficult to do and how about a P&R at ,say, Charlevuille to serve both cities off the M8

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

the problem isn't the N20 - it's the N21 which lies across the old line.

As for the line itself, have a look using the OSI tool. A lot of it just isn't there any more between Bruree and Patrickswell.

The best use for that line would be light or heavy rail from Limerick through Raheen to Adare and a park and ride on the east side of Rathkeale - and given the news from Dell this week that seems even less of a prospect than last week.

The best way to improve Cork-Limerick-(Galway) in the short term would be

• getting the eastern platform built at Limerick Junction to permit more stops there
• getting more of Limerick-Limerick Junction double tracked and service more frequent/faster - the fastest Cork-Limerick time is about 1h26 but few services have such a short (4 minutes in this case) connection time and especially not in the Limerick-Cork direction so improvements are more likely with a faster Limerick-LJ time or a through train - and the latter would probably be made a stopper anyway.

Probably the most sensible post in this thread.

There is no chance of reopening Charleville-Limerick, so scrap that idea right now.

As for re-routing trains to Limerick? Why would you want to replace a 90mph railway with one that (via Nenagh) could go at a max of 70mph?

As dowlingm points out, when the east platform at Limerick Junction (for Dublin-Cork trains) is built that will facilitate calls from trains in either direction on the Dublin-Cork route at the same hour rather than alternate hours as at present. By that time the KRP 6 minute recovery time should be gone too, so trains in the Cork direction will be calling at approximately 33/35 minutes past the hour, so that will mean that the Limerick Junction/Limerick shuttle will be advanced 10 minutes.

There will in the meantime be work carried out on the mainline to reduce the permanent speed restrictions, which should reduce the journey time further.

All of that will mean a maximum 90 minute Cork/Limerick journey time initially, with perhaps another 10-15 minutes shaved off over time.

KC61

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I've always said that a Cork to Galway rail service would be a reasonable idea as Cork to Galway is Bus Eireanns most popular route. Hourly buses 7 days a week. IE could get a slice of the pie.

Unfortunately you'd have to have a decent speed on the WRC to do this, which isnt going to happen.

What will happen though is the absurd situation of travelling Cork to Galway.
Cork - Limerick Junction on 1 train.
Limerick Junction - Limerick on a second.
Limerick - Galway on a third.

Its ridiculous because opening such a service would make IE some money and might actually make the WRC a little bit worthwhile.

You're making several big assumptions here. Why would the train from Galway not continue to Limerick Junction? I would expect that the service will be Galway-Limerick Junction and then a connecting train to Waterford, Cork or Dublin.

One change is not unreasonable - many journeys in other countries require a change. More than one train an hour out of Cork to Limerick Junction would be overkill. Utilise the existing resources to the maximum before engaging in massive expansions.

corktina

I dont see much point in investing money so that IE gets a share of BE's pie. Whats needed is NEW passengers transferring from cars. That means travel into the cities over a shortish distance with decent P&R facilities at a competetive price with city centre parking.

Zoney

corktina - it's not a question of "stealing" passengers from BÉ, it is the case that the train is a better mode of public transport and can attract more passengers. This is perhaps more true for long-distance (even the Irish version) than commuter runs - however, with the latter, it's usually the case that more buses wouldn't improve the route (due to traffic and therefore inability to schedule frequent services at peak times), whereas trainloads can. The timing being more attractive than the bus is usually a pre-requisite though, which is why I have mentioned it.

BendiBus

As said above, an East site down platform will allow the scheduling of Up & Down Corks to pass at the same time. This will make the most of the Limerick Junction shuttle, with likely extensions to Ennis, Galway and even Waterford.

Now, if a platform could be fitted in on the Limerick-Waterford line, trains could avoid backing in and out of the Junction and a Waterford-Galway service via Limerick and connecting from Dublin & Cork would be made more practical.

That's all the cities now connected with reasonable routings (Cork-Waterford maybe not) and a maximum of 1 change.

corktina

Zoney wrote: »

corktina - it's not a question of "stealing" passengers from BÉ, it is the case that the train is a better mode of public transport and can attract more passengers. This is perhaps more true for long-distance (even the Irish version) than commuter runs - however, with the latter, it's usually the case that more buses wouldn't improve the route (due to traffic and therefore inability to schedule frequent services at peak times), whereas trainloads can. The timing being more attractive than the bus is usually a pre-requisite though, which is why I have mentioned it.

it doesnt make sense for a huge investment in one arm of CIE to be made only to take passengers from another arm only to make that less profitable (or more likely more unprofitable...) the train would only be a more attractive option from places where there is a station.

Cool Mo D

corktina wrote: »

it doesnt make sense for a huge investment in one arm of CIE to be made only to take passengers from another arm only to make that less profitable (or more likely more unprofitable...) the train would only be a more attractive option from places where there is a station.

What really doesn't make sense is two arms of the publicly owned transport companies to be competing against each other. Running a half empty train and a half empty train together on the same route doesn't make sense. If off-peak bus passengers were accommodated on underused train services it would free up bus eireann to improve their services to areas without train services, or even make cost savings.

And I strongly agree with the idea of running a direct Galway-Waterford train, with connections to Cork-Dublin trains at limerick junction. It would provide a vast amount of useful integration for a low price.

corktina

the trouble is the Cork to Galway route of BE already does serve areas with no train service (ie all the small towns and villages it passes through).Maybe it should be recast to give faster journeys (say one in three) that only stop in a limited number of places

dowlingm

KC61 wrote: »

You're making several big assumptions here. Why would the train from Galway not continue to Limerick Junction?

In fairness KC the IE online timetable lists all Ennis-LJ as 1 change so the casual observer might reckon that IE sees Limerick as more of a terminus than a through station.

corktina wrote: »

it doesnt make sense for a huge investment in one arm of CIE to be made only to take passengers from another arm

Wouldn't it be nice if you could seamlessly transfer from one arm to another? Too much like joindy-up thinking I suppose...

dowlingm

BendiBus wrote: »

if a platform could be fitted in on the Limerick-Waterford line, trains could avoid backing in and out of the Junction and a Waterford-Galway service via Limerick and connecting from Dublin & Cork would be made more practical.

I remember seeing a sketch of how that might be done a few years back but google is not being helpful today. Perhaps a bay platform might be possible on the east side similar to the current west side bays, such that depending on which would be convenient for conflicting traffic or next connections, Limerick and Waterford trains could arrive and depart from either side. I don't know if the current construction allows for that or if it would make the signalling too complex.

There are notes on the progress of construction at Limerick Junction here.

Chris_533976

corktina wrote: »

the trouble is the Cork to Galway route of BE already does serve areas with no train service (ie all the small towns and villages it passes through).Maybe it should be recast to give faster journeys (say one in three) that only stop in a limited number of places

Agreed. I think there needs to be a Galway - Limerick - Cork service with only those three stops. That is the fastest it can be done.

Unfortunately Ennis seems to be a huge spawning ground for passengers, so it could really do Galway - Ennis - Limerick - Cork with no other stops.

Going into Shannon is what wastes time. It adds 30 minutes straight away.

dowlingm

You might be able to persuade them to do Cork-Limerick-Galway but I doubt you'll see a bus every 60 minutes.

Cool Mo D

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Agreed. I think there needs to be a Galway - Limerick - Cork service with only those three stops. That is the fastest it can be done.

Unfortunately Ennis seems to be a huge spawning ground for passengers, so it could really do Galway - Ennis - Limerick - Cork with no other stops.

Going into Shannon is what wastes time. It adds 30 minutes straight away.

Well Ennis is bigger than Kilkenny, so it is a fairly important stop - 30,000 people live around Ennis. It is tricky to do a flying visit into Ennis by bus though.