Want to convert from Catholicism to Church of Ireland...

Darragh29

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Over the last few months, I've been thinking of converting back to Church of Ireland, as there are some aspects of Catholicism that I am now becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, which I don't want to do into here to a large extent, but just to mention that I feel that the Catholic Church is still covering up the issue of child abuse within it's ranks and I no longer want to be associated with a church that cannot face up to it's inner demons and be guided by the truth.

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

kelly1

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Over the last few months, I've been thinking of converting back to Church of Ireland, as there are some aspects of Catholicism that I am now becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, which I don't want to do into here to a large extent, but just to mention that I feel that the Catholic Church is still covering up the issue of child abuse within it's ranks and I no longer want to be associated with a church that cannot face up to it's inner demons and be guided by the truth.

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

I'm sorry to hear that you want to leave Darragh and in a way it's understandable. I'm a faithful Catholic, I accept all the Church's teachings and I've yet to find an aspect of the faith that I could find no explanation for (with the possible exception of the reason for original sin). Believe me, the clerical sex abuse scandals causes me considerable shame and embarrassment. Bishops and priests are normal human beings who are prone to sin like all of us, not that I condone sin. Jesus never promised that the clergy would be free from sin. What He did promise is that the Church would never be destroyed and that it would be free from teaching error. I believe firmly that the Catholic Church is the same one founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles and that present day Pope is the successor of St. Peter. I believe the Church is a channel for divine grace in the sacraments.

I would encourage you to remain in the Church and instead of leaving, why no pray for guidance and faith? Please don't be so quick to jump ship. The Church needs the support and prayers of the faithful at this difficult time.

God bless,
Noel.

apoch632

Kelly, Can I ask a question. I have seen and heard many Catholics that theirs is the church founded by Jesus. Where I the scheme of things does this leave the eastern orthodox church. They come mostly from the Greek speaking tradition. would this not give them a closer claim to being the true church. Being older and established closer to the time jesus may have been on earth?

Rev Hellfire

The eastern church came from one of the many schisms in the catholic church in the middle ages, so its not a case of either been older than the other since the both come from the same common ancestral church.

PDN

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Over the last few months, I've been thinking of converting back to Church of Ireland, as there are some aspects of Catholicism that I am now becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, which I don't want to do into here to a large extent, but just to mention that I feel that the Catholic Church is still covering up the issue of child abuse within it's ranks and I no longer want to be associated with a church that cannot face up to it's inner demons and be guided by the truth.

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

I am neither Catholic nor Church of Ireland, so I've no dog in this hunt. But I would advise you to phone up the nearest Church of Ireland clergyman (they're in Golden Pages) and arrange to meet up for a chat. They're usually friendly enough and should be prepared to answer all your questions.

getz

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Over the last few months, I've been thinking of converting back to Church of Ireland, as there are some aspects of Catholicism that I am now becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, which I don't want to do into here to a large extent, but just to mention that I feel that the Catholic Church is still covering up the issue of child abuse within it's ranks and I no longer want to be associated with a church that cannot face up to it's inner demons and be guided by the truth.

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

its the same as the anglican church one dosent need to go to the rev/priest you just go to church -the biggest difference that you will notice that in the church there is less latin and no statues of saints-but you do not need to covert to go to a protestant church you just go

getz

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The eastern church came from one of the many schisms in the catholic church in the middle ages, so its not a case of either been older than the other since the both come from the same common ancestral church.

for a long time the catholic church had two popes eastern one and western one the eastern one was in turkey and was the largest but with the rise of islam it was soon destroyed

philologos

Darragh29 wrote: »

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

Hey if you want the best guide to what the COI and worldwide Anglicans believe, look to the Articles of Religion written by the Reformers.
http://ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=worship&id=14

If you are in the Dublin & Glendalough diocese go to http://dublin.anglican.org

Likewise for any other diocese put in meath instead of dublin for example for Meath and Kildare.

philologos

apoch632 wrote: »

Kelly, Can I ask a question. I have seen and heard many Catholics that theirs is the church founded by Jesus. Where I the scheme of things does this leave the eastern orthodox church. They come mostly from the Greek speaking tradition. would this not give them a closer claim to being the true church. Being older and established closer to the time jesus may have been on earth?

The Catholic Church wasn't the first church.

Other churches such as: The Armenian Apostolic Church, Mar Thomas Church, The Jewish Church (Nazarenes), and so on also claim descent from the Apostles.

robindch

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Same with my grandfather -- his gf at the time wouldn't convert to protestantism, and neither the protestant bishop nor the catholic bishop would permit a marriage between people who claimed allegiance to different churches.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

As you've pointed out, the main differences are no worship of Mary, no transubstantiation no pope or curia, and a much more decentralized structure. Better music too.

I'd say just drop along to a Sunday service and see if you can spot the differences from the catholic mass. Then, introduce yourself to the main man afterward and see how you get on.

jimmmy

kelly1 wrote: »

I would encourage you to remain in the Church and instead of leaving, why no pray for guidance and faith? Please don't be so quick to jump ship.

I think the original poster should be encouraged to follow his conscience, and people should be free to pursue whatever branch of whatever religion they choose. The C of I is a Christian religion ; I do not think God would consider it "jumping ship" to go to it instead of the R.C. church. There are many people in the world who were Roman Catholics who now go to other Christian services.

Darragh29

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that you want to leave Darragh and in a way it's understandable. I'm a faithful Catholic, I accept all the Church's teachings and I've yet to find an aspect of the faith that I could find no explanation for (with the possible exception of the reason for original sin). Believe me, the clerical sex abuse scandals causes me considerable shame and embarrassment. Bishops and priests are normal human beings who are prone to sin like all of us, not that I condone sin. Jesus never promised that the clergy would be free from sin. What He did promise is that the Church would never be destroyed and that it would be free from teaching error. I believe firmly that the Catholic Church is the same one founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles and that present day Pope is the successor of St. Peter. I believe the Church is a channel for divine grace in the sacraments.

I would encourage you to remain in the Church and instead of leaving, why no pray for guidance and faith? Please don't be so quick to jump ship. The Church needs the support and prayers of the faithful at this difficult time.

God bless,
Noel.

I accept that it is inherently human to sin, but what I have difficulty with now is the ongoing subsequent cover up of these horrendous acts, by people who are most familar with Catholic doctrine. As I was brought up, it was reared into me to always be guided by the truth, and you won't go far wrong. Stand in the face of any adversity that may come, but if you have the truth behind you, you will not fail.

Fast forward now to my life as an adult and I see leadership figures within the Catholic Church not even getting the basic fundamantals right when it comes to being guided by the truth and I think it is time to vote with my feet.

Darragh29

robindch wrote: »

As you've pointed out, the main differences are no worship of Mary, no transubstantiation no pope or curia, and a much more decentralized structure. Better music too.

Am I correct in saying that the COI do worship Mary as the mother of Jesus but not as a virgin who was conceived by the Holy Spirit???

PaddyAnglican

Darragh - As a C of I/Anglican priest I would first say to you that perhaps if you feel strongly about certain issues you would be better to try and effect change from the inside rather than leaving the church of your birth. However if you are interested do come along to one of our churches sometime and see what you think - no need to sign on the dotted line.
We have our failings too and are far from the perfect church! ;-)

Here is our Church website which may answer some of your questions:
about us:

http://www.ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=about

The Church of Ireland:

is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion which has 70 million members in 164 countries.
is an apostolic church, maintaining an unbroken link with the early apostles and drawing on the apostolic faith in its teaching and worship.
is a Catholic and Reformed church.
is able to trace its roots to the earliest days of Irish Christianity.
is a church with three orders of sacred ministry - Bishops, Priests and Deacons.
has services which follow an accepted liturgical form and structure.
has one prayer book - The Book of Common Prayer (2004) - plus other services authorised for use by the General Synod.
keeps a balance in doctrine and worship between Word and Sacrament.
has the Holy Communion or the Eucharist as its central act of worship.
is one church embracing Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
has 390,000 members - 275,000 in Northern Ireland and 115,000 in the Republic of Ireland.
has two provinces, Armagh and Dublin, each with an Archbishop.
has 12 dioceses, over 450 parochial units and over 500 stipendiary clergy
is a representative church, with each diocese electing those who will represent them at the General Synod, the 'Parliament' of the church.
has in its General Synod a House of Bishops which has 12 members and a House of Representatives which has 216 clergy and 432 laity.
also has Diocesan Synods where representatives of the parishes meet usually once a year.
has a parochial system where decisions at local level are made by Select Vestries whose lay members are elected each Easter by the people of the parish.


Detailed information about the Church of Ireland is available from the APCK Study leaflets, which may be accessed by clicking here.

Irish and Universal
Protestant and Catholic
Clergy and People
The Eucharist
Mary: Virgin and Mother
The Bible
The Communion of Saints
Death & Eternal Life
Baptism & Confirmation
The Holy Trinity

Darragh29

Many thanks Padddy for the info. I was at a COI wedding ceremony last year at Christ Church on Taney Road and I was impressed by the entirely different approach taken by the celebrant. The whole thing seemed less instutionalised and less authorative and more engaging and almost more human.

PaddyAnglican

I know the gang there - Its a good parish and very integrated in the wider community - I'm in the Midlands and blog about church and other matters at www.paddyanglian.com - All the best wherever you go :-) PaddyAnglican AKA Stephen

PaddyAnglican

Oops! That should be www.paddyanglican.com

sukikettle

Kelly you said you are a faithful catholic and you have yet to find an aspect of it that you might doubt I presume. I have one...as a catholic in another life...the worship and adoration of Mary...see Jeremiah 7:16 and the carved images adorning churches...see 10 commandments namely the first and novenas to dead saints when the bible which the catholic church endorses clearly states you are specifically not to talk or pray to the dead. This would include prayers for the dead because it's in this life you come to know Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and prayers to 'save' a soul are futile. It's all there in black and white even Jesus condemned the traditions of man

sukikettle

My points are obvious and really one must really consider the contents of their bible against what is going on in their church to find the true path to God.

PDN

Darragh29 wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that the COI do worship Mary as the mother of Jesus but not as a virgin who was conceived by the Holy Spirit???

No, no, no.

The CoI do not worship Mary at all. They believe that God alone deserves our worship.

The CoI recognises that Mary was a wonderful woman who was honoured by God by being the mother of Jesus. They also believe that Mary became pregnant while still a virgin by the Holy Spirit.

The differences in belief between the CoI and Roman Catholicism are, as concisely as possible:

a) Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception. This is the doctrine that Mary was sinless. The CoI believes that Mary, like the rest of us, was a normal human being with normal human weaknesses who found grace in the eyes of God.

b) Roman Catholics believe in the Bodily Assumption of Mary - that Mary's corpse ascended into heaven. The CoI would believe that Mary's body was buried in a grave like anyone else.

c) The CoI does not generally pray to Mary.

kelly1

sukikettle wrote: »

Kelly you said you are a faithful catholic and you have yet to find an aspect of it that you might doubt I presume. I have one...as a catholic in another life...the worship and adoration of Mary...see Jeremiah 7:16 and the carved images adorning churches...see 10 commandments namely the first and novenas to dead saints when the bible which the catholic church endorses clearly states you are specifically not to talk or pray to the dead. This would include prayers for the dead because it's in this life you come to know Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and prayers to 'save' a soul are futile. It's all there in black and white even Jesus condemned the traditions of man

Why don't you start another thread and we can discuss without derailing this one.

PDN wrote: »

No, no, no.

The CoI do not worship Mary at all. They believe that God alone deserves our worship.

Same applies to the RCC. Catholics believe that Mary is the Queen of Heaven but she certainly isn't equal to God. We believe that the angels are subject to Mary. The immaculate conception means that Mary was humanly conceived without any stain of original sin and was so filled with God's grace that she never sinned. Therefore Mary is sometimes referrred to as the new Eve (and Jesus as the new Adam).

sukikettle wrote: »

b) Roman Catholics believe in the Bodily Assumption of Mary - that Mary's corpse ascended into heaven. The CoI would believe that Mary's body was buried in a grave like anyone else.

Interesting that Mary has no burial place according to tradition.

Darragh29

Folks I didn't start this thead for a debate to start on inter church dogmatic theory. Can you take your debate somewhere else pls???

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

I am neither Catholic nor Church of Ireland, so I've no dog in this hunt. But I would advise you to phone up the nearest Church of Ireland clergyman (they're in Golden Pages) and arrange to meet up for a chat. They're usually friendly enough and should be prepared to answer all your questions.

Some wise words. You could also go to one of their services and then if you like it, just go back. They tend to be a fairly open minded bunch, in my experience.

The sermons don't tend to be fire and brimestone and probably put more emphasis on the humanistic elements of Christianity rather than the dogmatic ones.

Any dealings I've had with CoI have been largely positive. They seem a nice bunch, respectable bunch. We were considering getting married there or getting a Church blessing there.

Note: We tend to get very pedantic on these forums arguing endlessly about this and that, I think if you just went to your nearest CoI you'd get a good impression whether you liked it or not.

BTW I think CoI do believe in the virgin Mary but they just don't pray to her.

Fanny Cradock

Tim Robbins wrote: »

BTW I think CoI do believe in the virgin Mary but they just don't pray to her.

Yes, they believe that there was a Mary and she was a virgin (though this is not to say she remained one). The distinction is that CoI believe that she was an ordinary human woman.

wolfsbane

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've been doing my family tree in the last two years and it turns out that my family have for many generations been Church of Ireland, but in the last century, one of my forefather's converted to the Catholic faith to marry his wife.

Over the last few months, I've been thinking of converting back to Church of Ireland, as there are some aspects of Catholicism that I am now becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, which I don't want to do into here to a large extent, but just to mention that I feel that the Catholic Church is still covering up the issue of child abuse within it's ranks and I no longer want to be associated with a church that cannot face up to it's inner demons and be guided by the truth.

My problem is that I don't know much about the Church of Ireland except for the fact that it is a Christian denomination and that they do not believe that the virgin Mary was a virgin and they do not believe in the doctrine of transubstanciation, both positions which I would have no difficulty with even though I would be presently be considered a Catholic.

Could anyone maybe give me any more info on the Church of Ireland? I don't want to get into a debate with anyone here about clerical sex abuse or such stuff, I just want to explore the differences between the two religions if anyone is Church of Ireland here and could fill me in a bit...

You will find the CoI is not at all as homogeneous as the RCC, so each local church will be somewhere on the spectrum from liberals who only have a tenuous connection to the 39 Articles (the Anglican statement of faith), through Anglo-Catholics who are Roman in all but name, to Evangelical.

Also, there is every liklihood of Anglicanism splitting in the near future, over such things as homosexuality and women bishops. So you would need to pick carefully before you go to the bother.

If I may offer a word of advice - don't bother changing unless you are changing to a real relationship to God.

If church is just a social thing for you, but has come to be an embarrassment for the reasons you gave, better stay at home. At least you will not be tempted to think church attendance will somehow make you right with God.

If it's God you seek, begin with the Bible. Read John's Gospel and go on from there. Then seek out a church that believes the Bible and lives it out. The Christians there will be able to instruct more fully in God's way.

Phototoxin

Interesting that Mary has no burial place according to tradition.

AFAIK greek orthodox has a place where they think she's buried.

also re the : 'more human' aspect - amen.

also take wolfsbanes comments too // +1 to his post

Gold31

Darragh29 wrote: »

Folks I didn't start this thead for a debate to start on inter church dogmatic theory. Can you take your debate somewhere else pls???

Seems the debate arose following the 'fall out ' from the Murphy Report and maybe the status of the RC church. It seems to me that there are two entities of the RC church (a) the spiritual entity claiming to be the successors of the apostles, the disciples of Jesus and (b) the political entity in the form of the Vatican City/State (courtesy of Mussollini) with all the trappings including Cardinals, Nuncios/Ambassadors . This is not what Jesus the Son of God was about. Constatine of ancient times gave
those leaders a status so they were beholden to the Emperor and the
RC church still thinks of itself as the Roman Empire. Jesus came to bring
us into the Kingdom of God - a spiritual realm whilst in the world but not of the world. So the sooner the Roman catholic divests itself of all those
political trappings it's message can never be the Gospet of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ. The ruins of the old Roman Empire is a sign of what will happen the entity if there is not a Reformation as robust as the one that occurred in the 1500's !

lmaopml

Hi Darragh,

I would actually go along with Wolfsbane on this one. Most people remain Catholic because they uphold the 'faith', and ( for me ) central to the faith the Eucharist....no amount of bad people could keep me away from the Eucharist. I guess if those things are unimportant, than perhaps look at your 'reasoning' for changing, and the ultimate aim...and if it's to have a relationship with God, or if it's to dissociate yourself from the Church herself. I hope you find what your looking for...and best of luck.

Gold31

lmaopml wrote: »

Hi Darragh,

I would actually go along with Wolfsbane on this one. Most people remain Catholic because they uphold the 'faith', and ( for me ) central to the faith the Eucharist....no amount of bad people could keep me away from the Eucharist. I guess if those things are unimportant, than perhaps look at your 'reasoning' for changing, and the ultimate aim...and if it's to have a relationship with God, or if it's to dissociate yourself from the Church herself. I hope you find what your looking for...and best of luck.

Iamopml
I see Paddy Anglican has a post on January 10 which is worth studying