Pepper spray as self defence in the home or street

hedgeh0g

In the case of using pepper spray against an attacker in a domestic break in or say a mugging situation what does the law say?

HammerHeadGym

Totally illegal. Effective though.

gunhappy_ie

youd be screwed for usin it. Its classed as an offensive weapon so you risk that charge for having it. Also run the risk of being done for GBH and gettin sued by the person you use it on !

Nothingcompares

I think pepper spray along with "machetes" and "throwing stars" are one of those few weapons that are specially mentioned as being "illegal". Baseball bat in hand, and the right circumstances though, and that isn't.

Kila

hedgeh0g wrote: »

In the case of using pepper spray against an attacker in a domestic break in or say a mugging situation what does the law say?

The law says that you may absolutely not own, sell, use, rent, etc. any manner of chemical weapon, and that you will be fined, and/or sent to jail if you are caught possessing said weapon (that's just possessing, not even using).

The particular section of Irish legislation that concerns these sprays is the Chemical Weapons Act, 1997, linked here: Chemical Weapons Act, 1997

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think pepper spray along with "machetes" and "throwing stars" are one of those few weapons that are specially mentioned as being "illegal". Baseball bat in hand, and the right circumstances though, and that isn't.

<sigh> Yes, it is.

I've been through this before, and rather than double post exactly the same information, I'll just give you the highlights and link to the original thread asking about self defence weapons and my original post in the thread.

You cannot carry non-weapons around, beat people up with them, and get away with it because it's not a knife/gun/sword/etc. By non-weapons I mean any of the things regularly suggested, e.g. baseball bat, golf club, hurl, hammer, walking stick, etc.

It is explained in more detail in my other post, but what it boils down to is this: If you hurt someone with something (anything), the prosecution do not have to prove your intent to harm. They can proceed with the case as if you were carrying whatever item it was with specific intent to harm the specific person you harmed with it, and the legal onus is on you to prove that you had good reason to be carrying the item. The jury are the ones who will decide if your given "good reason" is good enough. So if you're playing Minor League Baseball and have just walked off the field, bat still in hand, and end up in a scuffle on the way to the changing room, you may be able to argue that it's reasonable. In any other situation, you don't really have a good reason to be carrying one around ready to hit someone with, and you will be in a whole lot of trouble.

The relevant legislation in the case of the above is the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990, linked here: Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990

As for specific weapons which are banned by name, the particular piece of legislation is here: Specifically named banned weapons

The last thread asking about self defence weapons is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055351767

My post, with the legislation quoted, and the explanation, is on the second page, direct link here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56859234&postcount=19

In general, you have a duty to retreat where it is at all possible. If you could have escaped from a situation, and instead stayed and escalated the fight (whether by use of weapons, or bare hand fighting) then you are, in the eyes of the law, crossing over the ever so grey line of "reasonable force" and will be in trouble along with your attacker, and may even end up doing time along with them (even if you didn't start the fight).

yomchi

Kila wrote: »

The law says that you may absolutely not own, sell, use, rent, etc. any manner of chemical weapon, and that you will be fined, and/or sent to jail if you are caught possessing said weapon (that's just possessing, not even using).

The particular section of Irish legislation that concerns these sprays is the Chemical Weapons Act, 1997, linked here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1231778042&amp;view=ag-view&amp;docrank=1&amp;numhitsfound=15&amp;query_rule=(($query3)):legtitle&amp;query3=weapons&amp;docid=54800&amp;docdb=Acts&amp;dbname=Acts&amp;dbname=SIs&amp;sorting=none&amp;operator=and&amp;TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&amp;setCookie=1




<sigh> Yes, it is.

I've been through this before, and rather than double post exactly the same information, I'll just give you the highlights and link to the original thread asking about self defence weapons and my original post in the thread.

You cannot carry non-weapons around, beat people up with them, and get away with it because it's not a knife/gun/sword/etc. By non-weapons I mean any of the things regularly suggested, e.g. baseball bat, golf club, hurl, hammer, walking stick, etc.

It is explained in more detail in my other post, but what it boils down to is this: If you hurt someone with something (anything), the prosecution do not have to prove your intent to harm. They can proceed with the case as if you were carrying whatever item it was with specific intent to harm the specific person you harmed with it, and the legal onus is on you to prove that you had good reason to be carrying the item. The jury are the ones who will decide if your given "good reason" is good enough. So if you're playing Minor League Baseball and have just walked off the field, bat still in hand, and end up in a scuffle on the way to the changing room, you may be able to argue that it's reasonable. In any other situation, you don't really have a good reason to be carrying one around ready to hit someone with, and you will be in a whole lot of trouble.

The relevant legislation in the case of the above is the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990, linked here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1231777908&amp;view=ag-view&amp;numhitsfound=3&amp;query_rule=(($query3)):legtitle&amp;query3=offensive&amp;docid=45965&amp;docdb=Acts&amp;dbname=Acts&amp;dbname=SIs&amp;sorting=none&amp;operator=and&amp;TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&amp;setCookie=1


As for specific weapons which are banned by name, the particular piece of legislation is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1231777908&amp;view=ag-view&amp;docrank=1&amp;numhitsfound=3&amp;query_rule=(($query3)):legtitle&amp;query3=offensive&amp;docid=19693&amp;docdb=SIs&amp;dbname=Acts&amp;dbname=SIs&amp;sorting=none&amp;operator=and&amp;TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&amp;setCookie=1



The last thread asking about self defence weapons is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055351767

My post, with the legislation quoted, and the explanation, is on the second page, direct link here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56859234&postcount=19


In general, you have a duty to retreat where it is at all possible. If you could have escaped from a situation, and instead stayed and escalated the fight (whether by use of weapons, or bare hand fighting) then you are, in the eyes of the law, crossing over the ever so grey line of "reasonable force" and will be in trouble along with your attacker, and may even end up doing time along with them (even if you didn't start the fight).

If you'd be so kind to fix those links for me and maybe research legislation regarding self defence in Ireland and a link to the relevant page on the Statuet book, I think it would make a useful sticky.

Please?

Kila

No problem - I'll start a new thread about it in a day or so with proper links (didn't realise that those links didn't come out properly!).

Nothingcompares

Kila wrote: »

sigh

If I was out in the field playing baseball and you came over to me with your vicious dog and gang of thug friends and started beating the **** out of me and I smacked your with the baseball bat and made my escape this would be an example of circumstances in which it was not illegal.

If i was out in my garden pruning the hedge with my illegal machete and you attacked me in the same way and I slashed you with the machete and made an escape it would be a different legal position as far as I know.

You did read the bit where I said correct circumstances right? and you just chose to ignore that yes?

pearsquasher

Excellent post there Kila and I'd agree with all of that. This reasonable use of force issue has come up before in this thread on youtube fights and not many "martial artists" here came on and admitted that the defender in each video could have done something more "reasonable".

We should be studying these things because we're martial artists and indeed if we defend ourselves with excess, as in using a chemical weapon, the law will, right-or-wrong, look at our "hobby" and ponder how our ability to not escalate things in the first place. Built into my observations are the luxury of not been in the situation shown/described but at least I'm thinking about what I would do if I had the choice and fighting is always last resort. My training should give me extra chance to escape over an untrained person because in theory I should be able to read the signals better and strategise with more options.

Btw.....a sonic alarm may be a good alternative to pepper spray? Not sure if they even exist or what the law says.

Kila

Nothingcompares wrote: »

If I was out in the field playing baseball and you came over to me with your vicious dog and gang of thug friends and started beating the **** out of me and I smacked your with the baseball bat and made my escape this would be an example of circumstances in which it was not illegal.

Technically, it's always illegal to beat someone, with anything. Circumstance doesn't permit you to do whatever you want. If a gang of thugs attacks you, and you beat one or several of them to death with your baseball bat, it's still possible that you will to go to prison, regardless of the fact that you were playing baseball, or that they started it. You would have a reason for having the bat, but you would still have to convince the jury that your excuse for having the bat was reasonable. If you really were out playing baseball, then it probably won't be hard to convince them that you had good reason for having one. However, if you cave in someone's skull, it doesn't matter what your reason for having the bat was, you're in a lot of trouble. Having a good excuse to have an improvised or non-weapon weapon with you doesn't make it legal to use it, it just puts you on slightly better footing when it comes to defending your actions.

Nothingcompares wrote: »

If i was out in my garden pruning the hedge with my illegal machete and you attacked me in the same way and I slashed you with the machete and made an escape it would be a different legal position as far as I know.

You would still be in trouble for attacking someone with a weapon, you would just also be facing charges for possession of and for using an illegally named weapon, in addition to your charges for assault.

Nothingcompares wrote: »

You did read the bit where I said correct circumstances right? and you just chose to ignore that yes?

No, I didn't ignore it. What you said is incorrect. Circumstances don't make things legal or illegal. If something is illegal, it's always illegal. And if you do something illegal, you're likely to end up in some kind of trouble. If the something illegal involves assault with a weapon, you're very likely to end up in court. If you do, the circumstances of the attack will come into play, and if you have a reasonable excuse for having had the weapon, then the prosecution will have to make specific efforts to argue that you had it with intent to harm (rather than just having it) and depending on the circumstances, either the jury will agree with your reason for having the weapon and proceed from that point, or if it's really ludicrous, the case may be dismissed by a judge first.

The simple fact of the matter is that our law makes it completely illegal to carry weapons, improvised or otherwise. And too many people post all over the net implying that it's ok to carry around a bat/hurl/golf club/etc. in your boot/bag/etc. just because it's not a "real" weapon. That's just not true. It doesn't matter if you didn't start the fight, and it doesn't matter that it's not a real weapon. If you hit someone with it, chances are, you're going to have to answer some questions. To imply otherwise is just irresponsible. Being attacked by someone does not give you a carte blanche to do whatever you want to your attacker. Even if you were attacked, you still have to abide by the law.

Nothingcompares

And too many people post all over the net implying that it's ok to carry around a bat/hurl/golf club/etc. in your boot/bag/etc. just because it's not a "real" weapon. That's just not true.

What you infer and what I imply are not the same things. However, it is ok to carry a hurl or a golf club around in your car. What are you trying to imply?

Having a hurl in your car and having a machete in your car are not the same thing. Committing GBH with a machete and with a hurl are almost the same thing but they're not.

Kila

Too often people will say things like "always keep a hurl/club/bat/etc" in the boot of your car in case you need it. And what I'm saying is that just because it's not technically a weapon doesn't make it legally acceptable to carry it around with intent to harm someone with it.

Of course it's ok to carry around your golf clubs in your car. If you're a golfer, or some sort of sports person, then you're likely to have that kind of stuff in your boot. But there's a big difference between having a golf club in your car because you were playing the other day and didn't bother taking it out, and having a golf club in your car for the express purpose of self defence, having never stepped onto a green in your life.

What I am trying to say is that if you are carrying around anything with the express purpose of using it for self defence, the fact that it is not what you might traditionally class as a weapon does not make it legal to use it. If you don't play baseball, and never have, you haven't really got any good reason to be carrying around a baseball bat. And if you badly injure or kill someone with that baseball bat, the fact that it wasn't a "weapon" won't come into it.

Legally, if you hit someone with anything, it is entirely up to you to prove that you had good reason to have it with you at the time. The prosecution do not have to prove that you were carrying with intent, you have to prove that you weren't. That is a very different legal position to be in. If you are attacked, and you genuinely just happened to have your favourite golf club to hand because you played a round yesterday, you will be in a reasonably solid position to defend your possession and use of the item, but you'll still have to defend it.

There is no circumstance that makes beating someone with a weapon (improvised or other) legal. There are only circumstances which may enable you to submit a defence that you had good reason to have said weapon at the time.

jim o doom

Kila; thanks for the information - good arguments and all well made & not only that but also informative, I know a good few people under the impression that "sporting goods" are ok to have in the boot specifically for self defense, and I think I shall be pointing them in the direction of this thread. I don't own a car so I've no where to carry a weapon & fortunately a motorcycle provides me with the legal obligation to wear and carry a helmet which is a good last resort weapon, should no other avenue be pursuable in a bogey situation
I understand from what you are saying that it's basically illegal to hit anyone with anything, regardless of what the thing is, although the items status as being an illegal weapon would obviously be considerbly worse & add extra criminal charges;

Where would you stand if you were to use an improvised weapon on an attacked in your own homestead or the grounds of your own homestead?
I know already that attacking someone with anything is illegal & circumstances don't change that, but I am assuming your defense would be a lot stronger due to the fact that you were in your home and picked up the nearest object..
I am not specifying the object - it could be anything, but specifically it wouldn't be something that would be already considered an illegal weapon, such as a machete etc.. I mean it's hard to "retreat" when you're in your own home & to be honest I found a stranger in my house that person would end up in hospital regardless of the legal implications that might follow. I wouldn't kill him, but he wouldn't be walking properly for a while, and no doubt about that, it may be primitive (my territory, die invader) but seriously, that is something I wouldn't be willing to take!
And I'm not talking about it in some ridiculous fashion like where that farmer shot a fellow in the back & beat him on the ground & shot him again, I mean someone in the gaff not legging it - it would be nice to know how strong your defense in court would be in that sort of horrible situation.

cushtac

It's also worth bearing in mind that if you keep a weapon in the boot of your car you'll probably have to go to the boot, get the weapon & come back - thus potentialy limiting any claim of self-defence.

jim o doom

That's a fair point as well cushtac - although the one thing that popped into my mind was that, whatever you had in your boot, illegal or not - if it came to the situation where you NEEDED a weapon to defend yourself; i.e. perhaps being attacked by a person with a weapon, sure you may face consequences in court, but I'd sure prefer to be facing consequences rather than a knife in the proverbial gizzard..

cushtac

jim o doom wrote: »

That's a fair point as well cushtac - although the one thing that popped into my mind was that, whatever you had in your boot, illegal or not - if it came to the situation where you NEEDED a weapon to defend yourself; i.e. perhaps being attacked by a person with a weapon, sure you may face consequences in court, but I'd sure prefer to be facing consequences rather than a knife in the proverbial gizzard..

My point is that it could be argued that if you had time to go to your boot, open it, take out a weapon & return to the fight then you had the time to lock yourself in your car and drive off.

Under law, your first responsibility when outside your home is to retreat from violence. If you have the opportunity to leave an incident and don't take it you're no longer just defending yourself.

iceage

Differant scenario, I go into a certain shop......buy a pepper spray(dog deterrant) give it to my wife to put in her handbag. A month from now shes out with the girls for a meal,on the way home she goes for a Taxi, while waiting she is accosted by a scumbag, she remembers the pepper spray(dog detterant) does the bastad in the eyes, he goes down she legs it, calls the cops........is that pepper spray madam??

What do you reckon? ABH? GBH? Assault with a lethal weapon?

Killme00

iceage wrote: »

Differant scenario, I go into a certain shop......buy a pepper spray(dog deterrant) give it to my wife to put in her handbag. A month from now shes out with the girls for a meal,on the way home she goes for a Taxi, while waiting she is accosted by a scumbag, she remembers the pepper spray(dog detterant) does the bastad in the eyes, he goes down she legs it, calls the cops........is that pepper spray madam??

What do you reckon? ABH? GBH? Assault with a lethal weapon?

no Guard, its perfume

or deodorant or a can of fly spray you just hppened to be carrying. If they cant prove you used pepper spray, then dont do their job for them

edit to add: by "them" here, i mean the villian, not the Gardai

moxiah

Surely a chemical attack is a chemical attack is a chemical attack; whether someone gets a face full of caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide), CS/tear gas (2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile), pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum), or cheap perfume/hairspray, there's potential for respiratory tract and eye damage (even death, in the case of allergic reactions).

Afaik, (Kila, help please) the law covers chemical attacks in general, not specific chemical attack agents, be they improvised or otherwise. That being the case, "No, Gard, it's perfume" or anything similar shouldn't do any real good in court.

Mox

[Edits: Fixing spelling and grammar.]

cushtac

iceage wrote: »

Differant scenario, I go into a certain shop......buy a pepper spray(dog deterrant) give it to my wife to put in her handbag. A month from now shes out with the girls for a meal,on the way home she goes for a Taxi, while waiting she is accosted by a scumbag, she remembers the pepper spray(dog detterant) does the bastad in the eyes, he goes down she legs it, calls the cops........is that pepper spray madam??

What do you reckon? ABH? GBH? Assault with a lethal weapon?

It would be at least assault causing harm I'd say, along with possession of an offensive weapon.

The Shane

In any situation the Gardai will show up, take a mature look at the situation and make a decision. If you managed to cave in three skulls then chances are you could have taken a step back and inflicted less serious injuries in defence of yourself.

If your otherwise law abiding wife does pepper spray someone, then practically speaking the garda will probably side with her and using some measure of discretion leave her uncharged. If found with it at some other time, she may face a charge. Again depending on the discretion of the garda.

In any case for anything serious or likely to interest the media the garda will prepare a report for the DPP and make a recommendation. If this fictitious incident is self defence then chances are there will be no prosecution. If it is not or goes beyond the line of self defence then the garda will recommend prosecution. Based on their interpretation and the report the DPP will then give a decision and you'll be told after a couple of weeks.

The law is black and white but it is tempered by the good sense of the garda, the DPP, the judge, the jury and ideally by yourself in the first place. If you act in a morally responsible way then this conversation and people's attempts to drag Kila into letting them hit someone is a bit childish.

Kila - really excellent response.

Shane, The

Kila

Sorry about the delay in reply, I've been super busy!

In short, the answers given above mine are pretty much spot on. There is no specific offence in law for the use of pepper spray (that I have found), just general legislation on chemical attacks/weapons, which pepper spray would fall under.

The Shane is spot on when he says that discretion of the various parties involved will play a part, and it is this which I have been also trying to emphasise throughout the thread. There is always a chance that you will not be charged, of course, but in the same way there is always a chance that you will be charged. If you want to decrease your chances of being charged, then it is up to you to act in a mature and responsible fashion. This means not using illegal weapons, and not using excessive force. If you do use an illegal weapon, discretion will again doubtlessly come into play when they examine what weapon it is that you have used. I expect, for example, that they would look much more harshly on someone who stabs someone with a balisong than someone who sprays someone with pepper spray.

As with many things, it all really comes down to common sense and moderation. If you use excessive force, no matter what the weapon, you will likely get in trouble for it. If you find yourself in a situation you cannot escape, and use reasonable force to escape the situation, it is probable that you will not get in trouble. Once you can demonstrate that you acted in a reasonable manner, that you are a generally upstanding member of society, etc., you can expect that you will not be facing time in jail.

If you are concerned about your wife getting in trouble for having or using pepper spray, then the solution seems reasonably obvious (to me at least): don't buy her pepper spray, and don't allow her to carry it. If you have a concern for her safety, perhaps it would be better to have her taught some simple self defence techniques, with an emphasis on subjects such as situational awareness to help avoid the conflict in the first place.

I have always believed that if you don't carry anything illegal with you, you won't have the temptation to use (or over-use) it if you find yourself in a dangerous situation. There is a saying - "when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail". By the same token, I believe that when some people carry weapons, they think that every problem can, and should, be solved with them.

@The Shane - Thank you.

cushtac

Kila wrote: »

In short, the answers given above mine are pretty much spot on. There is no specific offence in law for the use of pepper spray (that I have found), just general legislation on chemical attacks/weapons, which pepper spray would fall under.

It's a prohibited weapon as defined in the Firearms Act 1925 and possession of it is an offence under that act. Any assault using a prohibited weapon would be considered to be very serious by the courts.

People should not automatically expect, or even hope, that the Gardaí will exercise their discretion when it comes to the use of such weapons in self defence. These are very serious matters and I would say that there is more of a chance of you being charged for possession and use of such sprays than there is of you being let off.

BrianD3

My understanding of the legislation is:

-pepper spray is not allowed as it would be classed as a weapon which emits a noxious liquid or gas. It's not even possible to gain a licence for such a weapon. If a burglar breaks into your house, attacks you, and you, in self defence, spray his eyes in pepper spray, you might be in trouble. On the other hand, if you pick up an aerosol can of caustic oven cleaner (perfectly legal and reasonable to have in your house) and spray him in the eyes with that you could cause permanent eye damage and be in trouble for using excessive force. And the burglar will probabaly attempt to sue you afterwards as well.

-machetes, throwing stars, knuckle dusters etc. are illegal to sell, import etc. but I see no mention of them being illegal for a private individual to posess in their home.

-crossbows and air rifles are specifically mentioned as needing a firearms licence

-anything else which shoots a "lethal" projectile also needs a firearms licence. This raises interesting questions about (long) bows and even slingshots.

Kila

cushtac wrote: »

It's a prohibited weapon as defined in the Firearms Act 1925 and possession of it is an offence under that act. Any assault using a prohibited weapon would be considered to be very serious by the courts.

People should not automatically expect, or even hope, that the Gardaí will exercise their discretion when it comes to the use of such weapons in self defence. These are very serious matters and I would say that there is more of a chance of you being charged for possession and use of such sprays than there is of you being let off.

Cool, you found it. I kinda knew in the back of my mind that it was written in specifically somewhere because I was sure I had read it before, but couldn't find it on a quick search the other day, so thought I must have imagined it. Thanks for the pointer.

Re: being charged, I definitely agree. You can never depend on discretion, and that's why I always just advise against carrying anything like that in the first place. That way, you never have to be worried about being charged for having something you shouldn't. It seems a much safer and more sensible option to me, to be honest.

smith.ross

<snip> Try introducing yourself and posting a few times. Shilling is prohibited

Moderator

Scramble

My personal opinion only-

If an injury has been sustained and complaints have been made to the Gardai, the matter will probably have to be fully investigated and a file prepared for direction.

As far as the investigating Garda exercising their discretion goes, there's a difference between using it to (for example) only caution someone in relation to not wearing a seatbelt, and utilising it in the context of something as serious as an assault. Irrespective of where their sympathy may lie or the apparent obviousness of the matter the safe option is to do a file, include a recommendation and then let someone above them make the call. And there's no guaranteeing which way they will come down on a particular matter one way or another.

The investigation of a middling serious assault can take quite a bit of time, and more for the file to be looked at and a decision made on it. And then should the matter go forward there's a painfully long wait for things to unfold in court. Not a nice experience either way.

hedgeh0g

OK please forget pepper spray.

The reason I stared the thread was a house I lived in once was burgled.
Visit one - They went upstairs and saw my self and my sister asleep in different rooms. (folks were away) My sis woke me and said she saw three guys running away from the house. I didn’t see the broken glass behind a curtain which allowed them open / climb through a window downstairs on attempt one but found the front and back door open which I closed. I put a deodorant can on the inside handle of two doors downstairs. I got a big bread knife and put on a pair of jogging shorts and runners. We discussed how they got into the house upstairs, did they have a key?

30 mins later I heard a deodorant can drop downstaors. Horror it was, they were back. The only similar feeling I have ever experienced was watching the Shining, “Its johney”. My heart was pounding. They had returned knowing full well there were two of us in the house! Anyway I had a bread knife and ran down the stair screaming “you are in for it now” (i didn’t know what else to say and hoped to startle them which it did) and when I reached the bottom of the stairs the last one was scaling the back wall. I tried to jump the wall but slipped and cut my leg on the wall. I was in a running club at the time doing 4 nights a week and was in peak physical condition. I could see them running accross a field. They had cut the phone line!
I think all five of us were lucky that night, it could have gone horribly wrong. If anything like that ever happened again I don’t want to be jailed for defending myself and my family. I was so fit and so freaked out by what had happened that I sometimes wonder what I would have done If I hadn’t have injured myself and perused them, or if they called my bluff. The fear / rage mix is unreal when it happens. I feel for anyone burgled that doesn’t use “appropriate force” and faces the law. Its hilarious that a burglar can sue you for any reason on your property.

I was told of some friends of friends about that had their apt cleared out while they slept. The next morn the tv / video etc was gone along with the biggest knife in their kitchen knife set. The lads had armed themselves incase the couple woke!

I recall a security guy that worked in an industrial estate saying that those big metal torches double as a baton when needed and he said if ever in court after an attack he would say .... I was cornered and had my torch to hand ......

So for a burglary, I think I will have one of them security torches.
Is it ok to keep a Hurley stick in the boot of the car and in a house just in case its needed?

Latchy

Fly spray is just as efective ,as long as the little white nozzle is pointed at the would be intruders eyes and not yours ( dont want you getting blinded ) and yes, it is also illigal but in a life or death situation ( struggle) who cares ?

moxiah

hedgeh0g wrote: »

OK please forget pepper spray.

The reason I stared the thread was a house I lived in once was burgled.
Visit one - They went upstairs and saw my self and my sister asleep in different rooms. (folks were away) My sis woke me and said she saw three guys running away from the house. I didn’t see the broken glass behind a curtain which allowed them open / climb through a window downstairs on attempt one but found the front and back door open which I closed. I put a deodorant can on the inside handle of two doors downstairs. I got a big bread knife and put on a pair of jogging shorts and runners. We discussed how they got into the house upstairs, did they have a key?

30 mins later I heard a deodorant can drop downstaors. Horror it was, they were back. The only similar feeling I have ever experienced was watching the Shining, “Its johney”. My heart was pounding. They had returned knowing full well there were two of us in the house! Anyway I had a bread knife and ran down the stair screaming “you are in for it now” (i didn’t know what else to say and hoped to startle them which it did) and when I reached the bottom of the stairs the last one was scaling the back wall. I tried to jump the wall but slipped and cut my leg on the wall. I was in a running club at the time doing 4 nights a week and was in peak physical condition. I could see them running accross a field. They had cut the phone line!
I think all five of us were lucky that night, it could have gone horribly wrong. If anything like that ever happened again I don’t want to be jailed for defending myself and my family. I was so fit and so freaked out by what had happened that I sometimes wonder what I would have done If I hadn’t have injured myself and perused them, or if they called my bluff. The fear / rage mix is unreal when it happens. I feel for anyone burgled that doesn’t use “appropriate force” and faces the law. Its hilarious that a burglar can sue you for any reason on your property.

I was told of some friends of friends about that had their apt cleared out while they slept. The next morn the tv / video etc was gone along with the biggest knife in their kitchen knife set. The lads had armed themselves incase the couple woke!

I recall a security guy that worked in an industrial estate saying that those big metal torches double as a baton when needed and he said if ever in court after an attack he would say .... I was cornered and had my torch to hand ......

So for a burglary, I think I will have one of them security torches.
Is it ok to keep a Hurley stick in the boot of the car and in a house just in case its needed?

What an absolutely awful thing to happen, I can honestly say that absolutely nothing in my range of experiences even comes close to that! I'm glad that you and your sis are ok, and that it didn't go horribly wrong in one of the many ways it could have. Very good thinking with the deodorant can, btw, I hope my head works that clearly if I ever need it to. I think by far the most chilling part of that story is that the phone lines had been cut, not quite a clear statement of intent but still...

Re: having a hurl in your car boot, exactly the same thing as we've been saying applies; it's an innocuous sporting item right up until you wallop someone with it, at which point it becomes a weapon and you're tried for assault with it.

I should clarify my point of view here; I'm not pro- or anti- people using and/or carrying offensive weapons, although the idealist within me would prefer if nobody did, I just tell all of my students to do whatever it is they want to do in full knowledge of the potential consequences of their actions. If carrying a hurl in your car boot makes you feel better, then go for it (life's too short to be unhappy), but be aware of what'll happen to you if you use it to harm another person.

Re: home defence; I know a number of people who subscribe to the "once you're in my house, all bets are off" point of view and I respect their reasons for that, but all of them are aware of what consequences they face should "push come to shove" and are at peace with them.

Mox

BrianD3

Just on bats, clubs, bars, hurleys - I don't think they'd be of much help in a self defence situation against a burglar. The shorter ones require you to get too close to the intruder, the longer ones are too awkward to swing in the confines of a house. I reckon a dry powder fire extinguisher sprayed in the intruder's face/eyes would work better. Easy to aim, non lethal, no skill required. And unlike banned weapons, it's perfectly reasonable and sensible to have a fire extinguisher in one's home.

angeldance

Just thought I'd reply to this thread. When we moved into our house a few years back, neighbours told us that somepeople had tried to break in when we were out ( came home to big bits of wood hacked outof my front door) so first thing I did after call the police was go to the sports store bought a big metal weight bar and then stopped at the supermarket and got a big block of kitchen knieves. I know how to defend myself but my biggest fear is someone breaking in not for stealing stuff but doing something worse and my first piority is my daughter. So if someone broke in to myhouse I wouldn't think twice of using anything I could to defend my family.

cushtac

hedgeh0g wrote: »

Is it ok to keep a Hurley stick in the boot of the car and in a house just in case its needed?

Unless you're a hurler you've no excuse to keep one in the car, and as I've said earlier if you go to the boot of your car for a weapon you're leaving yourself open to being accused of going beyond self-defence.

Nothingcompares

someone breaks into your house so you go and buy a load of knives? some people are daft.

I'm inclined to agree with the girl from maynooth and I think it's best to say nothing on this subject because people are silly.

Dave Joyce

Re: home defence; I know a number of people who subscribe to the "once you're in my house, all bets are off" point of view and I respect their reasons for that, but all of them are aware of what consequences they face should "push come to shove" and are at peace with them.

Interesting thread and some really good and valid points brought up during the various posts. Most definately subscribe to the above and wouldn't hesitate in ANY way to protect my family, no matter what the consequences if they are any type of danger. However, (particularly in the case of more than just yourself), a correct response plan needs to be very familiar to all concerned/affected people.

One final point, I think we can take it that MOST of us here are NOT going to go off the rails over a petty row and contemplating/producing a weapon is not a whim or even a need BUT a necessity because of the circumstances you find yourself in. Now, those types of situations would be highly unlikely to happen, however until recently home invasions would be unheard of here and while they are still very unlikely to happen (unless you're a possible target cause of your circumstances, again a rarity), they are becoming more frequent.

hedgeh0g

Pepper spray is legal in USA.
http://www.stungunspepperspray.com/is-pepper-spray-legal.php

Good ideas for home protection that have been posted ...

Fire extinguisher - Is one type better than another in a self defence home situation? Powder type? Someone covered in powder could be easier to ID for police when running up the road as well.

Fly spray - god that stuff is really strong on the lungs. I wonder if that can be got in small cans.

MoonDancer

Well getting prison time for spraying a burgler in the eyes would definatly be a risk I'd take to protect my family!
He'd be lucky to escape more serious injury!

challengemaster

In fairness, The whole issue is bad enough as it is. You cant even use SD/MA to defend yourself from them without being sued... Nevermind illegal weapons.(ok ok, so there's that whole reasonable force lark - Reasonable to who...)

I really think Texas got it right with this one. Shoot first, ask questions later. Perfectly legal.

Dave Joyce

I really think Texas got it right with this one.

Think Pennsylvania has better gun laws:D:D

April Raine

cushtac wrote: »

Unless you're a hurler you've no excuse to keep one in the car, and as I've said earlier if you go to the boot of your car for a weapon you're leaving yourself open to being accused of going beyond self-defence.

a friend knows a man who was driving through a certain town late at night when a drunk guy came out in the street dropped his pants and mooned up on the bonnet of the car. the man asked him to go, blew the horn etc. no move So he got out took a hurley from the boot and gave it to the mooner across the arse. he went then:D

Quillo

It always struck me as pointless being given a right in the Constitution to self defence while at the same time being prevented in law from an reasonable chance of exercising that right effectively....

There are many historical/political reasons tracing why we have moved from a position where any person of good standing (that is, a non-criminal) could not only defend themselves (and their property) by any means, but such good folk were expected to embrace that right with the associated responsibility and to arm and prepare themselves to do just that.

Is the average person safer from assault today than her or she was 200 years ago ? Hard to say.

Can governments guarantee our safety from assault today - definitely not.

And yet the good people of Ireland (like most people) seem content with the severe legal restrictions on our rights to self defence, all no doubt hoping they will be in the statistical majority that never encounter violence first hand.

Many of you reading this will have decided to improve the odds in your favour should violence find you by training in methods of avoidance and defence (myself included). I view this as being no different to wearing a seat-belt while driving.

However, in the statistically unlikely event that you become a target, training alone is unlikely to be enough if you are presented with a stronger/faster opponent or you are confronted with an armed adversary or with multiple opponents. In such case a weapon may not even be enough to extricate you but, then again, it may be enough to tip the balance in your favour long enough to allow escape and survival...... would still be illegal though !

cushtac

April Raine wrote: »

a friend knows a man who was driving through a certain town late at night when a drunk guy came out in the street dropped his pants and mooned up on the bonnet of the car. the man asked him to go, blew the horn etc. no move So he got out took a hurley from the boot and gave it to the mooner across the arse. he went then:D

That guy could have faced charges over that if the drunk had reported it to the Gardaí. It all sounds funny, but the driver took a weapon to a man who hadn't laid a hand on him.