Good time to join Civil Service

firsttimebuyer

Have been offered a job in the Civil Service EO in Dublin - 1 year probation...then will be offered a pernament position if everything goes ok(have no doubts it will).

With all the talk in the media about cutbacks/pay cuts in public sector....is it a good time to join?

Advice or thoughts would be gratefully recieved....thanks

AARRRGH

If you want to join, go for it.

Personally I think you'll be the first to go but that may never happen.

doolox

I would jump at the chance.
The advantages are security of pay and protection from discrimination, bullying,sharp practices etc that you get in private sector.
Disadvantages are slow decision making/change, slow or ineffective or absent colleagues which could increase your workload unexpectedly.
In general there are good development and progression plans in place for the right people.
The disadvantages are no bonuses like you get in some multinationals, no stock plans, XMAS parties, little or no shift allowances...( try getting time off in lieu in some of the busier parts of the public service....)
VERY good pension plan, defined benefits but this could change in the future.
The chances are that the public sector numbers will be reduced in the future so jump at the chance now. In my opinion the worst that will happen pay-wise is a pay freeze while the rest of society will get pay cuts or no pay at all or increased demands for unpaid work instead of overtime as this recession gets worse.
The 35 hour week is very attractive.
The extra holidays, extra service days at bank holidays etc... is very attractive.
The 20 days a year uncertified sick days that some get is also very attractive.
Well done on getting the offer.

AARRRGH

doolox wrote: »

Disadvantages are... slow or ineffective... colleagues

This alone is the reason I would never work in the civil service. I could not handle being surrounded by lazy morons. At least in the private sector they have some risk of losing their job.

/I still think the OP should go for it if it's what he wants

frecklier

You would be mad in the head not to take it, unless you have to give up a very stable, permanent job to do it. As for the probation, it's apparently quite difficult not to keep someone on after their one year probation, would have to be serious issues that were highlighted to you at all of your reviews, and they would have to show that no improvements had been made.

beertons

doolox wrote: »

The 35 hour week is very attractive.
The extra holidays, extra service days at bank holidays etc... is very attractive.
The 20 days a year uncertified sick days that some get is also very attractive.

Unbelievable

gazzer

Originally Posted by doolox
The 35 hour week is very attractive. This is true.
The extra holidays, extra service days at bank holidays etc... is very attractive. What service days at Bank Holidays are you talking about? I have never gotten these and I am in the CS 18 years
The 20 days a year uncertified sick days that some get is also very attractive. 20 Days a year :eek: Never ever heard of this in the Civil Service. It is 7 days uncertified. The last time I took one of them was about 3 years ago when i was dying in bed with a migraine.

J.S. Pill

doolox wrote: »

The 35 hour week is very attractive.
The extra holidays, extra service days at bank holidays etc... is very attractive.
The 20 days a year uncertified sick days that some get is also very attractive.

beertons wrote: »

Unbelievable

I work only 36.5 hours a week.
I get an extra leave day every month on top of my annual leave.
I'm surrounded by demoralised cretins and have to answer to clueless management.

Oh by the way, I work in the private sector.

Nolanger

Could be worse because it used to be two years' probation.
Just be prepared to work with people who've being doing the same job for 15 years. They're the ones who'll tell you how to work and give you expert advice.
Ignore these people because they are the reason the CS has such a bad rep.
Don't take sick leave during your probation.
If it's based in Dublin then there's a chance that your job is going to be decentralised. Ask about this.
Reckon cutbacks will be in the general public service and not the civil service.

leinster93

Why not give it a try? You can always look for another job in a year or so if you feel it doesn't suit. In response to another reply 7 days sick leave (uncertified) and a Monday or a Friday must be certified afaik. Have taken 3 uncertified & 3 certified (sports injury) in 11 years so no expert and stand to be corrected. Pity about all the bad publicity. We're not all lazy time wasters ya know...

JennyAnt

Hey,
Have worked summers in the service all through school and college. Different departments. I have met some truly moronic, lazy people who do nothing and could easily be let go and I doubt anyone would miss them.
On the other hand I have met people who are extremely intelligent, well up on world events, extremely efficient, even some who clock out and stay late unpaid so they can finish a project. Swings and Roundabouts, there are all walks of life in all professions.

Working in the private sector now and it is definitely different - more pressured, longer hours, more challenging - would I go into the service? I sure would consider it if the right role came up, you make a job what it is, regardless of what sector our in.

To the OP: What department/type of role are you starting? How did you get the role?

All the best in yor new job anyway!

buckrodgers

What department is the job in? I am also in the civil service. I am very surprised you are being offered anything, there is no hiring where I am, no one is being replaced if they leave or go on maternity etc.
As for what AARRRGH said about lazy collegues, personally I feel the introduction of the pmds system has really woken up the bad members of staff. They cannot get away with slacking anymore. All your work has to be accounted for. You can be fired, suspended without pay, etc and this has happened where I am. Excuse my spelling as I am half asleep writing this

BostonB

firsttimebuyer wrote: »

Have been offered a job in the Civil Service EO in Dublin - 1 year probation...then will be offered a pernament position if everything goes ok(have no doubts it will).

With all the talk in the media about cutbacks/pay cuts in public sector....is it a good time to join?

Advice or thoughts would be gratefully recieved....thanks

You wouldn't be any more secure in the private sector.

So thats not really an issue.

sdanseo

Go for it. A relatively stable job, barring cutbacks, is a godsend atm. Youd be frankly stupid not to unless you have anything better on the horizon, and if it's what you want.

Saibh

firsttimebuyer wrote: »

Have been offered a job in the Civil Service EO in Dublin - 1 year probation...then will be offered a pernament position if everything goes ok(have no doubts it will).

With all the talk in the media about cutbacks/pay cuts in public sector....is it a good time to join?

Advice or thoughts would be gratefully recieved....thanks

You can also take a career break after your position is made permanent - not too sure on the guidelines. You can take up to 6 months to 5 years.

Good luck

The_Conductor

Saibh wrote: »

You can also take a career break after your position is made permanent - not too sure on the guidelines. You can take up to 6 months to 5 years.

Good luck

Its now a minimum of 2 years career break- and there is no guarantee that you will be taken back when you want to come back (it depends on an opening occuring, and the budget being there to re-engage you). There are people who have been trying to come back from career break for over 2 years unsuccessfully......

Its a minimum of 2 years, a maximum of 10 and you can take up to 2 career breaks during your tenure, one of which must be 5 years or more.

The big reason not to take a career break is it seriously screws up pension contributions and rights.

The_Conductor

doolox wrote: »

I would jump at the chance.
The advantages are security of pay and protection from discrimination, bullying,sharp practices etc that you get in private sector.

Believe you me- there is every bit as much bullying in the civil service as there is elsewhere. There might be rules set out in stone for dealing with it- but it can take a long time to investigate claims and come to an appropriate course of action for whatever the situation is.

doolox wrote: »

Disadvantages are slow decision making/change, slow or ineffective or absent colleagues which could increase your workload unexpectedly.

Yes- decision making can be glacial, and also subject to abrupt change, as the remit of the civil service is to implement government policy (which varies more often than the Irish weather at times). Re: absent colleagues- this can be for several reasons- but the one which tends to cause most resentment is the 'termtime' scheme where parents can take up to 16 weeks unpaid leave in the summertime to spend time with their children. In only very exceptional cases are parttime staff brought in, or reassigned for the summer months to cover the absence of these staff. There is also the perception that at times the civil service has been used by previous governments (particularly in the mid 80's) as a dumping ground to manipulate unemployment figures. You get some extremely competent, intelligent people in there- who are totally smoothered by people who simply are putting in their hours.

doolox wrote: »

In general there are good development and progression plans in place for the right people.

From personal experience I've found that going up against the public at large in Open Competitions to be far more effective than trying to use the internal mechanisms for promotion/progression. The big problem in a lot of government departments is quotas for certain numbers of staff in different grades. Often Personnel Officers may ignore these quotas- but they do eventually catch up on them. The efforts of an overzealous Personnel Officer could mean there are no promotions to AP in a small government department for a 10-15 year period. This can easily destroy the enthusiasm of better staff who might feel they have no future- other than to do their regular 8 to 5. Its not that they are even going to get Merit awards any more- the money isn't there.

doolox wrote: »

The disadvantages are no bonuses like you get in some multinationals, no stock plans, XMAS parties, little or no shift allowances...( try getting time off in lieu in some of the busier parts of the public service....)

There used to be merit awards for exceptional work over and above that which would normally be expected for your grade. It might only have been a small shopping voucher for groceries or whatever- and could be as low as EUR10-20, it was very little but at least it was a recognition that you were noticed. There is now absolutely no incentive, bonus, allowances or other benefits that someone can aspire towards- other than perhaps a Window seat as oppossed to being stuck in the middle of a building with only computer monitors for lighting.

doolox wrote: »

VERY good pension plan, defined benefits but this could change in the future.

The biggest modification of all occurred in 1995- when all new civil servants became regular Class A PRSI employees, paying 5 different pension contributions (I think it comes to about 13.2% of gross, + employers contribution) on top of other deductions). But since then there have been a further 4 revisions to the scheme(s)- the most recent in 2006. Its now prohibitively expensive to buy 'notional service' for over 25s to have 40 years service at age 65, or for those who take a career break to purchase back their pension rights. In addition- the rights for new starts have been steadily eroded. The current scheme is nothing near as generous as people imagine it to be. The latest proposal is to tax the lumpsums people get on retirement at the higher rate and make the pension payments fully taxable. I'm only surprised this isn't being talked about.

doolox wrote: »

The chances are that the public sector numbers will be reduced in the future so jump at the chance now.

Already being implemented- its those on defined term contracts who are being let go first- pretty much irrespective of their skills and necessity to the different organisations. As this group becomes exhausted (probably literally as well as proverbially)- it will most probably be those on probation and then last-in, first-out that will apply. The figures being bandied by the politicians are a 20% reduction in headcount. Will it be the right 20% who are let go?

doolox wrote: »

In my opinion the worst that will happen pay-wise is a pay freeze while the rest of society will get pay cuts or no pay at all or increased demands for unpaid work instead of overtime as this recession gets worse.

The current proposals are a payfreeze across the board- but a targeted paycut for those on higher salaries (say a 5% for those over 40k, 10% for those over 60k, 15% for those over 80k). Overtime, travel and subsistence, training and any other areas considered as 'non-core' have already been pretty much plundered to the point of not existing any longer. The debate at the moment is whether the freeze includes annual salary increments as well as cost of living increases.

doolox wrote: »

The 35 hour week is very attractive.

In general EOs (the most junior of the management grades) and higher, while they may nominally have a 35 hour week (excluding breaks and lunch), actually work a lot longer than this- often off the clock. Its a case of all-hands on deck when something needs to be done. In most areas staff will already have been lost- so work loads have already increased substantially.

doolox wrote: »

The extra holidays, extra service days at bank holidays etc... is very attractive.

Sorry- what do you mean? EOs get the statutory min for hols- increasing 1 day after 5 years service and a further day after 10 years. There is actually a union claim ongoing about this at the moment- as its seen as unfair (COs- two grades lower than EOs have identical holidays, and SOs- 1 grade lower actually have 2 days more than EOs). What is an 'extra service days at bank holidays'? I've never heard of it before.

doolox wrote: »

The 20 days a year uncertified sick days that some get is also very attractive.
Well done on getting the offer.

If someone were to take 20 days uncertified sick leave in the current climate regardless of who they were they would most probably be let go on health grounds. Normally in government departments its a maximum of 7 days uncertified sick leave (and if you consistently have 7 days uncertified sick leave you will be black listed for promotion purposes). Note: in the civil service for purposes of calculating sick leave- the days of the first weekend are also counted. If you take a Friday or a Monday off- without a valid certified medical reason- it is considered 3 days uncertified sick leave (despite the fact that you are not physically present on the Saturday or Sunday). Personnel Departments monitor this vigilantly.

Don't get me wrong- the civil service can be a very fulfilling, enjoyable job- with the possibility to transfer to diffferent sections and further your experience in a lot of different areas. Its also possible that should you elect to undertake parttime further education a contribution may be made towards your fees (depending on how the course relates to the particular work area you are in)- which is very worthwhile.

Every job or opportunity is what you make of it.

OP- I would suggest that you take the job and hope it works out well for you. But don't go in with assumptions about how things are in the civil service- you could very well be in for a surprise.

luckyboy

smccarrick wrote: »

its those on defined term contracts who are being let go first- pretty much irrespective of their skills and necessity to the different organisations. As this group becomes exhausted (probably literally as well as proverbially)- it will most probably be those on probation and then last-in, first-out that will apply. The figures being bandied by the politicians are a 20% reduction in headcount. Will it be the right 20% who are let go?

If it is decided to let probationers go, that would seem to be totally unfair on those who are still on probation solely because of things like maternity leave, or because they got a promotion (which switches the probation clock back to zero again)

How will they square that circle?

The_Conductor

luckyboy wrote: »

If it is decided to let probationers go, that would seem to be totally unfair on those who are still on probation solely because of things like maternity leave, or because they got a promotion (which switches the probation clock back to zero again)

How will they square that circle?

Those on maternity leave have their rights enshrined in other legislation, those who are promoted- are on probation in their new role, and a worst case scenario for them, is they would revert to their previous grade (there are currently a number of cases in courts at present where people took posts on promotion that were subject to decentralisation but were subsequently demoted to their previous grade as they refused to move- I know its not exactly what we're discussing here- but it would be handled in a similar manner- you would simply revert to your previous grade as a worst case scenario (and even that would be fought tooth and nail)).

ixoy

I'm not in the civil service, but I work with them and have done so for over two years. From my POV, there can be many advantages in terms of good holiday plans, pensions, and flexible working hours as well as the likes of long paid coffee breaks, although that I'm sure varies from department to department.

I've found that there's a much greater range of people in the civil service - a higher degree of wasters than in private but also lots of truly excellent workers - it's more than possible that both wasters and hard workers could be rated the same at the end of year (or only a negligible difference), so it could be frustrating for you if you want to work hard. I don't think meritocracy applies in the civil service to the same degree as the private (or at least in the company I'm with).

Is it a role dealing with the public? That's something you ought to take into consideration given there's a huge amount of negativity towards the public service of late.

The_Conductor

EOs wouldn't normally be dealing directly with the public- they might be supervising a number of staff who were though.......
It really depends on the Department, and even the Division in that department though- the role varies enormously. In the current climate I'd hazard a wild guess that its in Social Welfare- and possibly in one of the local offices. Any spare staff in other government departments have already been lent to social welfare to try to deal with their unfortunate upswing in business- and they are still sinking under paperwork. Just a wild guess......

luckyboy

smccarrick wrote: »

Those on maternity leave have their rights enshrined in other legislation ... quote]

Thanks for your response, but the people I was alluding to were those who have returned from maternity leave and now find that they are still on probation whereas, if they had not done this, they would now be permanent

What will happen to those people?

Secondly, you mention that people promoted (and still on probation as a result) would revert to their previous grade. Well, I know of at least one colleague who fits this description, who got promoted so quickly (from CO to AO) that he hadn't even served enough time to be made permanent in his original role of CO. What would happen him? He, in a way, is neither a permanent CO or a permanent AO. How would that be dealt with?

I appreciate all responses on this. Thanks ...

RoseBlossom

smccarrick wrote: »

..its those on defined term contracts who are being let go first- pretty much irrespective of their skills and necessity to the different organisations. As this group becomes exhausted (probably literally as well as proverbially)- it will most probably be those on probation and then last-in, first-out that will apply. The figures being bandied by the politicians are a 20% reduction in headcount. Will it be the right 20% who are let go?

You don't expect there to be a "package" offered to people with say 30+ years experience who want to go?

I know they're talking about it but I really can't see a 20% reduction happening - 20% fewer teachers, 20% fewer nurses, 20% fewer gardaí (20% fewer politicians?;)) ?? Or if certain of these are ringfenced, you'd need say a 40% cut in civil servants (I'm guessing here!), all of whom would presumably be post-95, to get a 20% cut overall in the public sector, at a time when the workload of very large departments like Social & Family Affairs is rocketing - it can't end well!

I think politicians get a camera and mic shoved in their faces and have to come up with a "solution" and it's the only thing they can think of (they never think of suggesting say entrepreneurial roadshows with advice bureaus and cheap loans for example). I remember many years ago some TV programme that said that if every business in the country employed one extra staff member, unemployment would disappear in Ireland. I think the US is bringing in a form of tax credit to employers for employing additional staff for a minumum period like a year (iirc), which can be set against profit in any area of the business. Imaginative and proactive solutions like that are needed.

OP sorry for bringing this off topic - the CS suits some people down to the ground - it's not for everyone though and you won't know if it's for you until you've settled in.

EOs can end up doing an amazingly wide variety of work. You can be lucky in where you're placed, or you can get a bit of a dud position - but there's always the possibility of moving to a different section if you're not let go first!

445279.ie

ixoy wrote: »

That's something you ought to take into consideration given there's a huge amount of negativity towards the public service of late.

I'm an EO and deal with the public all the time.

As ioxy said, a lot of negativity towards the public service of late. I've been horribly verbally abused on the phone by the "good public" 3 times in the last 2 weeks. The type of language used against me that I don't think I deserve just cos I work in the civil service. :mad:

vinnyryan

Congratulations on the offer but depending on the supply and demand of your skills with in the department your to join just listening to the news each day increases worries of further cut backs up on cut backs. Think it boils down to what have you got to lose and potentially what have you got to gain?

gary the great

As SMCarrcik said, its nearly defo going to be a Social Welfare Local Office.

And believe me its very very tough work at the moment, especially for a person coming from the private sector to EO grade in a local Office.

Grossly understaffed at the moment to and being an EO your going to take a lot of **** that you personally cant help. Also the public feel its their duty to abuse you at every opportunity as your a civil servant and apparently sit around doing nothing all day (they say this as you deal with 50person plus que)...it makes you a tougher person anyway thats for certain!

Im also starting to worry a bit that I could possibly lose the job if the cutbacks go ahead seeing as im only probabtion....

Nolanger

If you go to a dole office one thing is certain - your job will be safe from any public sector cuts.

The_Conductor

luckyboy wrote: »

smccarrick wrote: »

Those on maternity leave have their rights enshrined in other legislation ... quote]

Thanks for your response, but the people I was alluding to were those who have returned from maternity leave and now find that they are still on probation whereas, if they had not done this, they would now be permanent

What will happen to those people?

They have not completed their probationary period, and will be treated in the same manner as others on probation- last-in, first-out. Its the same if you are on longterm sickleave (recovering from cancer or whatever) and went on sick leave prior to completing your probationary period.

In practice given the constraints in recruitment over the past 18 months, its unlikely to be a factor- most departments will go out of their way to try to smooth things out- as they are not going to get sanction from the Department of Finance to recruit more staff.......

luckyboy wrote: »

Secondly, you mention that people promoted (and still on probation as a result) would revert to their previous grade. Well, I know of at least one colleague who fits this description, who got promoted so quickly (from CO to AO) that he hadn't even served enough time to be made permanent in his original role of CO. What would happen him? He, in a way, is neither a permanent CO or a permanent AO. How would that be dealt with?

I appreciate all responses on this. Thanks ...

Time served in the substantial grade will count towards total time served. Well done to your friend on jumping from CO to AO- its quite unusual. They've been trying to get graduate recruits to accept EO in lieu of AO pretty much across the board.

RoseBlossom wrote:

You don't expect there to be a "package" offered to people with say 30+ years experience who want to go?

No, to be totally honest. The official side have made it pretty clear that there is no money available for any 'packages' and that if there are to be redundancies on the cards, that no previous packages offered anywhere else in the public sector will be considered as precedent. Its also been stated that there will be no 'notional pension topups' etc- to encourage those just shy of retirement to go early (as it were).

RoseBlossom wrote:

I know they're talking about it but I really can't see a 20% reduction happening - 20% fewer teachers, 20% fewer nurses, 20% fewer gardaí (20% fewer politicians?) ?? Or if certain of these are ringfenced, you'd need say a 40% cut in civil servants (I'm guessing here!), all of whom would presumably be post-95, to get a 20% cut overall in the public sector, at a time when the workload of very large departments like Social & Family Affairs is rocketing - it can't end well!

You've actually hit on something there that is never really touched on in the media- we actually have far fewer civil servants than people imagine. The civil service, which includes prison officers (not sure why?) accounts for the staffing of the 15 government department. It numbers roughly 37,000 from a public sector of roughly 378,000....... People think there are far more civil servants than there actually are- but we actually have the lowest number per head of population in the world. There are however shocking numbers employed elsewhere in the public sector- the HSE alone accounting for almost 240,000- and you can be damn sure that less than 20% of the staff in the HSE are actually doctors or nurses......... Sacking every single civil servant would only give you about a 7.6% reduction in the public sector wage bill (elsewhere in the public sector tends to be better paid- which accounts for the difference between the number of civil servants and their percentage of the total wage bill).

RoseBlossom wrote:

I think politicians get a camera and mic shoved in their faces and have to come up with a "solution" and it's the only thing they can think of (they never think of suggesting say entrepreneurial roadshows with advice bureaus and cheap loans for example). I remember many years ago some TV programme that said that if every business in the country employed one extra staff member, unemployment would disappear in Ireland. I think the US is bringing in a form of tax credit to employers for employing additional staff for a minumum period like a year (iirc), which can be set against profit in any area of the business. Imaginative and proactive solutions like that are needed.

Irish politicians do not represent Ireland as a whole- they represent their constituents. This parochial politics encourages the ridiculous favourtism shown to the constituencies of Ministers- and a begrudgery towards Dublin by the rest of the country in general (despite the fact that the Dublin region massively subsidises expenditure elsewhere in the country- despite people's belief to the contrary). We have too many politicians, paid too much, who take far too many holidays (which they argue is to do constituency work). FFS- why should you go to your TDs office to get a pothole sorted- its a load of bollox.

If you look at other countries- there is training provided for civil servants and politicians- look at France with its Ecole National D'Administration- the senior civil servants and politicians are properly trained for their tasks- unlike the Irish situation where you have patently unqualified people promoted to posts they are incapable to adjusting to. There is something wrong when you become a minister simply because you're a drinking buddy of the Taoiseach- or because its considered safer to give you some sort of a post to try to keep you quiet- yet that is the Irish situation. People don't seem to care.

RoseBlossom wrote:

OP sorry for bringing this off topic - the CS suits some people down to the ground - it's not for everyone though and you won't know if it's for you until you've settled in.

EOs can end up doing an amazingly wide variety of work. You can be lucky in where you're placed, or you can get a bit of a dud position - but there's always the possibility of moving to a different section if you're not let go first!

It really is what you make of it- and it does offer opportunities to move between different departments and to travel and attend high level meetings and see how the EU and other institutions actually work from the inside. An EO is the most junior level of management- but depending on their level of competence, interest and ability- might attend EU Commission and Council meetings, write Ministerial speeches, organise press and other conferences, organise and track publishment of reports, assist in audit duties, perform various out of office duties- the list is endless. It can be an incredibly fulfilling job- but the hours can be murder.

DCC160 wrote:

As ioxy said, a lot of negativity towards the public service of late. I've been horribly verbally abused on the phone by the "good public" 3 times in the last 2 weeks. The type of language used against me that I don't think I deserve just cos I work in the civil service.

Civil servants do have a very bad reputation, largely thanks to the media (don't get me wrong- there are lots of lazy idiots there who would struggle to hold down a job elsewhere- but there are similarly loads of extremely intelligent, hardworking people who get a lot of wholly undeserved flak in the media). The problem is civil servants do not have a voice that can be used to refute the myriad of false perceptions and bad press they as a whole get. The public at large imagine there to be hundreds of thousands of useless wasters getting paid massive sums of money to swing the lead- when the truth in many cases couldn't be further from the truth. That said- its not fair to randomly attack anyone on the phone. I worked in a call centre for 6 years- I know what its like to deal with irate members of the public. The person at the end of the phone is a human being too- and deserves to be treated with respect as such. In any case- if you randomly attack someone, they are hardly likely to go that extra mile to try to help you- are they?

There is a lot of jealousy and misinformation about the civil service- I've found a lot of it to be from older people- who seem to think civil servants live charmed existences. Younger people seem to have a better idea that the grass might not be quite as green in there, as its painted to be.......

gazzer

You've actually hit on something there that is never really touched on in the media- we actually have far fewer civil servants than people imagine. The civil service, which includes prison officers (not sure why?) accounts for the staffing of the 15 government department. It numbers roughly 37,000 from a public sector of roughly 378,000

I really think that this point needs to be hammered home to anybody engaging in a debate on the 'public service'. The Civil Service accounts for approx 10% of the total public service. That is one of (if not the) lowers % in Europe.

magicEye

I do think Civil Service is a big joke... if you are in the Civil Service long enough, it is very easy to milk the system as there are no check ups or professional reviews in place, you can easily go sick for as many days as possible, can take as many days leave because there's nobody actually checking or counting the days, can work whatever hours you like and still get away with it, be completely incompetent and yet nobody noticing it....

Magic

Saibh

magicEye wrote: »

I do think Civil Service is a big joke... if you are in the Civil Service long enough, it is very easy to milk the system as there are no check ups or professional reviews in place, you can easily go sick for as many days as possible, can take as many days leave because there's nobody actually checking or counting the days, can work whatever hours you like and still get away with it, be completely incompetent and yet nobody noticing it....

Magic

Have you read any of the posts written by Gazzer and smccarrick?

magicEye

Saibh wrote: »

Have you read any of the posts written by Gazzer and smccarrick?

Yes, I have. And it all seems so nice and fair....it's just that all these rules and regulations are not applied and are not respected....that is why I said it is all a big joke. It would be very nice if everybody did their work and respect regulations and colleagues...unfortunately this does not happen...

Magic

Edit: I did say if you were in the Civil Service long enough....I wasn't talking about people who've just joined the Civil Service and are doing their jobs, believe me there are loads of hard working people in the Civil Service, and good ones, it just seems that the higher you go on the scale, you're more likely to meet incompetent people playing the system as they like...

buckrodgers

magicEye wrote: »

I do think Civil Service is a big joke... if you are in the Civil Service long enough, it is very easy to milk the system as there are no check ups or professional reviews in place, you can easily go sick for as many days as possible, can take as many days leave because there's nobody actually checking or counting the days, can work whatever hours you like and still get away with it, be completely incompetent and yet nobody noticing it....

Magic

Do you work in the civil service. I have been working there for 10 years and I do not milk the system. There are a lot of checks and reviews. You cannot go out sick for more than two days without bringing in a doctors cert. If you are out for awhile on sick leave you have to be seen by the medical examiner. If you are out for 5 uncertified days sick leave you get a warning, if you get two warnings in 4 years you have your uncertified sick leave revoked. Our leave is checked every year and allways has to be signed off by our manager, just as they have to have theirs signed off by their manager and so on. We have to sign in and out whenever we enter of leave the building - even for a cigarette. The pmds system ensures incompetence is noticed and acted upon.
I am sick of people making the kind of broad statements you are making. If you are aiming your remarks at a particular office you should say so. It is not the case in all the civil service and I believe offices like you mention are few and far between now.

magicEye

buckrodgers wrote: »

Do you work in the civil service.

Yes, I do.
I've never seen anyone checking the log book against your personal leave sheet (and there are differences for certain), I've never seen anyone counting the number of days uncertified leave during any year, I've never seen anyone checking hours worked during the week... I suppose at the end of the day is just bad management, but people have been getting away with these kinds of things for years and I don't see any chances of things changing, not under the current economic climate anyway...

I do suppose there are places where all these regulations are strictly applied, fair play to them and to the people working there, at the end of the day it's up to the individual to be fair to himself and all other working in the same place...

buckrodgers

log book? Where are you working! It thought all departments are computerized at this stage, we have been for years. Everything in our office is monitored. I have heard stories about small offices eg garda stations having a lax attitude to time keeping but I didnt believe it. To be honest I find it very disappointing.

The_Conductor

magicEye wrote: »

Yes, I do.
I've never seen anyone checking the log book against your personal leave sheet (and there are differences for certain), I've never seen anyone counting the number of days uncertified leave during any year, I've never seen anyone checking hours worked during the week... I suppose at the end of the day is just bad management, but people have been getting away with these kinds of things for years and I don't see any chances of things changing, not under the current economic climate anyway...

I do suppose there are places where all these regulations are strictly applied, fair play to them and to the people working there, at the end of the day it's up to the individual to be fair to himself and all other working in the same place...

Which Department is this?

I have to fill out an absence report whenever someone is absent- and do a return-to-work when they come back. These are sent to Personnel, who maintain sick leave records, and a copy is put on the person's personnel file- along with a copy of the doctor's cert, or social welfare cert.

All our leave is all stored electronically- and has to be cleared by your line manager in advance (we try to make sure that at least 3 weeks notice is given where possible, as it assists with scheduling meetings etc).

I have friends and colleagues in at least 5 different Departments- they don't all have the same system- but all keep an accurate track of all types of leave, sick leave included.

We have a clocking system- if you leave the building at all- you clock out. Apart from anything else- if there is a fire in the building (not a regular occurrence thankfully) the fire wardens can immediately get a printout of who in their parts of the building is clocked in- this can be used at the muster points and any discrepancy reported to the emergency services. We also have cameras covering all entry and exit points in the building- which through spotchecks is as good a manner as any at ensuring compliance.

Its terrible to hear that there seems to be somewhere in the civil service with a logbook- it sounds like somewhere out of the dark ages. Most Departments have modern systems for keeping track of staff (both their physical locations but also leave and other matters). Clockwise is in common use in at least 4 Departments- but there are other systems out there too. I really don't understand how or why somewhere seems to have been overlooked........

At least with the centralisation of Personnel functions currently being proposed- all those Departments that are lax in these areas will be dragged into the 21st century (albeit some of them kicking and screaming- as per the complaints from Social Welfare local offices........)

ixoy

smccarrick wrote: »

Most Departments have modern systems for keeping track of staff (both their physical locations but also leave and other matters). Clockwise is in common use in at least 4 Departments- but there are other systems out there too. I really don't understand how or why somewhere seems to have been overlooked........

And yet Clockwise (which I use) can't prevent someone going in the door, clocking in, and immediately leaving again to go off and get their breakfast (I've seen this a few times). Nor can it track those who take reasonable 10 minute breaks against those on 30 minute ones (I've seen both of these too) who don't clock out. In other words, there still needs to be a broad accountability at a human level - you can't just rely on electronic systems. And from what I've seen those who generally take the proverbial are more likely to be the older group who've been in the service for years.

BostonB

I've seen abuse of working hours, clocking systems in both Private and Public sectors and both the young and the old doing it. If there wasn't they wouldn't need those systems in place for everyone in every sector. That they exist means the problem happens everywhere. However its usually the minority not the majority.

In my experience, some of worst offenders of abusing these systems were also the most productive and talented people in the place. Some of the clock watchers, the worst. Sometimes the reverse is true.

Firetrap

OP, I honestly don't know whether joining the Civil Service at the moment is a good or bad idea. Brian Lenehan has been alluding to pay cuts and job cuts but until we get concrete facts as opposed to speculation on message boards (I'm not referring specifically to Boards), nobody can say for certain what's going to happen. Hopefully he will clarify what he means soon.

leinster93

People abuse the system whether it be the public or private sector...
Only a matter of time before it catches up with them

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0107/1230936732142.html

ixoy

pass1111 wrote: »

Thanks for your replies.
Have been offered a position in the Revenue Commission IT section...

Is this the OP? 'Coz if so you're using a second account, definitely frowned upon...

Anyway, yes that's no surprise there - it'll be interesting to see how they approach your training for the job.

doolox

All the talk of reports, clockwise, sick certs at every turn etc remind me of Intel and other "pay for performance, out if you're slow" employments and differ little from the private sector in general.
The inconsistancy evident in the comments above must be sickening for those under the full rigours of the sick day monitoring system.
It would be fun to put the politicians and others in authority under the same scrutiny.
If they are under such scrutiny people would be better off self employed as generous sick time off is one of the best advantages of employment in general.