Flammable Ambulances

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

It appears that several versions of the Mercedes Ambulance chassis have spontaneously combusted over the past 12 months or so.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7584282.stm

This is a somewhat worrying development when placed alongside the Mercedes Benz Citaro Articulated Buses in London which have lost several of their number to the inferno...... :rolleyes:

Just to bump this one,has anybody noted the HSE Mercedes Sprinter (?) which burnt out near Drogheda.
Coverage with very telling pictures in The Evening Herald of 6th January (Sorry no linky)

The potential for a very serious possibly fatal incident is quite obviously increased with these vehicles...One hopes the HSE have sufficient resources remaining to mount a serious investigation without relying totally on Mutec/Mercedes for an explaination.

civdef

An ambulance combusted in Laois in '07 too, was it a Sprinter?

TheNog

Thats a very serious problem!!!

Thought Mercedes are recalling all vehicles for emergency work to be done on them or are they still investigating it?

timmywex

http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/ambulance-bursts-into-flames-on-road-1594455.html

civdef

This is the link to the Laois incident:

http://www.laois-nationalist.ie/news/story/?trs=cwgbmhojcw

It was a sprinter.

TheNog

On the 7am news tis morning it appears this only affects 2006 Mercedes Sprinter Ambulances which are currently being recalled to garages for checking. No link yet.

Anyone know exactly is the cause of the fires?

AlekSmart

Interesting stuff.
One would wonder how much,if any,information was shared between the UK/Welsh Ambulance service and the HSE in relation to these incidents.

One of the ongoing problems with all modern vehicles but particularly Public Service Vehicles such as Buses,Coaches or Emergency Vehicles is the amount of "Stuff" which is deployed within their increasingly smaller profiles.

Without having inspected beneath a Sprinter bonnet,I suspect that space is at a premium and with heavy duty electrical equipment having to be catered for one has an immediate problem with heat dissapation even if there is NO actual electrical problem per se.

This flammability issue exists right across the mechanically propelled vehicle spectrum,the difference here obviously being the restriction imposed upon a patient in exiting the vehicle.

There remain quite some unanswered questions relating to the Mercedes Citaro artic-bus fires in London.
Although there have not been any recent occurences (TG) the amount of information on their causes and knock-on recommendations remain scant.

It`s worth noting that Dublin Bus is currently involved in retro-fitting it`s entire fleet with a fire retardation and suppression system centred around the engine bay.
Quite why such an expensive programme was deemed necessary is open to speculation.

It should also be noted that Engine related fires were virtually unknown on the older types of front-engined Bus and most if not all losses were usually deemed to be as a result of vandalism.

The net result of this I suspect will be a similar retro-fit of a Fire Suppression kit to the Sprinter....Job Sorted !!!

timmywex

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0109/1231454443254.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-takes-ambulances-off-the-road-after-spate-of-blazes-1596461.html


Aleksmart,
it must be remembered that the ford transists used at the moment also, slightly older than the sprinters, never had any major problems as these ones do, had all the same equipment also such as lift on the back etc, but they were useless at power, had none!

Linky to the irish times/independant articles up above, i also love the fact that some stations will be flumaxed now, shall be begging borrowing and stealing from other stations till its sorted!

Bang Bang

This is very worrying indeed and it has been brought to the attention of relevent management, but to this date I can't say if anything has been done about it.
Since the introduction of the CEN compliant ambulance back around 2003, it appears that crew safety is becoming less important.
Gone went the "walk-thru" from the cab to the back of the ambulance. This meant for example, should the patient deteriorate enroute to hospital and the attending crew member needs the assistance of the driving crew member, then the driver now has to step out onto possibly a busy carriageway where before he/she could simply step thru to the back. This is also the case should the crew member in the back be assaulted, which has happened before.

Now onto to the new Mercedes CEN compliant ambulances.
The walk-thru is still gone, this issue having been raised for over five years now and still nothing done.
In the back of the Mercedes the side window on the off side of the vehicle is gone, as is the skylight/hatch on the roof. (apparently to install an escape hatch on the roof costs just €600 but the HSE are not willing to pay this, what price a paramedic!! and patient!!!)
The near side window is much smaller that before, it's also double glazed with a set of blinds between the the panes and there is no safety ring pull to release the glass in the event of an emergency.
So apart from the obvious and well documented fire hazzard, in the event of the ambulance rolling onto the near side in an accident, the possibility of becoming trapped in an inferno is all too real.
Perhaps the HSE Ambulance Service will wait until a tragedy happens to start doing something about these serious safety issues.
Claustraphobia and motion sickness has also become an issue on long journeys as there is minimal natural light or the ability to see outside which lessen the chance of motion sickness.
Picture being locked in the back of a box van/truck then take a long bumpy journey:mad:

sdanseo

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should also be noted that Engine related fires were virtually unknown on the older types of front-engined Bus and most if not all losses were usually deemed to be as a result of vandalism.

The net result of this I suspect will be a similar retro-fit of a Fire Suppression kit to the Sprinter....Job Sorted !!!

I'ts much easier to cool a front mounted engine becuase the airflow of the the moving vehicle is directed straight at it -a benefit you lose when you put them at the back. That's the price of modern designs.

dfbemt

TheNog wrote: »

On the 7am news tis morning it appears this only affects 2006 Mercedes Sprinter Ambulances which are currently being recalled to garages for checking. No link yet.

Anyone know exactly is the cause of the fires?

Was the Drogheda one not a 07 !!!!

Bang Bang

dfbemt wrote: »

Was the Drogheda one not a 07 !!!!

Although not a direct answer to your question dfbemt but we've had a service crew in our station this week making changes to the 07 Mercedes models.
I have asked what changes are being made and was told it was something to do with fuel leaks (this has not been confirmed)

I take it by your user name your with DFB?
Myself and some colleagues have spoken with DFB crews regarding issues I've mentioned in my previous post, urging your colleagues to have these issues addressed before, if at all, you are issued with the Mercedes CEN vehicles.
If you get the opportunity outside one of the hospitals maybe you'll have a look in the back and see exactly how user unfriendly these vehicles are, as well as the safety issues.

AlekSmart

Interesting to see how this thread is developing.
Am I correct in supposing that the MB Sprinter type vehicles were sourced independently of the operating staff ?

Is it the case that senior administrators and support staff may have been involved in assessment visits to other,perhaps far flung locations?

We will probably recieve assurances that the contracts were decided only after EU spec tender procedures etc etc....however..the rather uncomfortable facts outlined by BangBang deserve somewhat fuller circulation methinks?

Tango Alpha 51

We've been using Merc Sprinter in one shape or another since 1995. Up to 2003, they were all van conversions done by Parfit in Dublin. When CEN was introduced in 03, Parfit got out of the market & Wilker supplied the CEN complaint vehicles for 2 years. Then WAS since 06.

Minor changes for the 2008 Model WAS ambulance is the reintroduction of the skylight/roof escape hatch, changes to the front lightbar etc. The old walkthrough is still gone though. Some people agree with this/some don't. Personally it doesn't bother me. We've never had a problem with the Sprinters as such since they were introduced in 1995.

I don't think that any operational staff were consulted when the spec for the WAS vehicles was being drawn up & at the end of the day it all comes down to budget

Tango Alpha 51

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting stuff.
Without having inspected beneath a Sprinter bonnet,I suspect that space is at a premium and with heavy duty electrical equipment having to be catered for one has an immediate problem with heat dissapation even if there is NO actual electrical problem per se.

Alek,
The amount of space under the bonnet is the same as any other sprinter model on the market. The electrics for the emergency equipment are located under the two seats. All the batteries are located in the rear passenger side hatch

Tango Alpha 51

Bang Bang wrote: »

This is very worrying indeed and it has been brought to the attention of relevent management, but to this date I can't say if anything has been done about it.
Since the introduction of the CEN compliant ambulance back around 2003, it appears that crew safety is becoming less important.
Gone went the "walk-thru" from the cab to the back of the ambulance. This meant for example, should the patient deteriorate enroute to hospital and the attending crew member needs the assistance of the driving crew member, then the driver now has to step out onto possibly a busy carriageway where before he/she could simply step thru to the back. This is also the case should the crew member in the back be assaulted, which has happened before.

Now onto to the new Mercedes CEN compliant ambulances.
The walk-thru is still gone, this issue having been raised for over five years now and still nothing done.
In the back of the Mercedes the side window on the off side of the vehicle is gone, as is the skylight/hatch on the roof. (apparently to install an escape hatch on the roof costs just €600 but the HSE are not willing to pay this, what price a paramedic!! and patient!!!)
The near side window is much smaller that before, it's also double glazed with a set of blinds between the the panes and there is no safety ring pull to release the glass in the event of an emergency.
So apart from the obvious and well documented fire hazzard, in the event of the ambulance rolling onto the near side in an accident, the possibility of becoming trapped in an inferno is all too real.
Perhaps the HSE Ambulance Service will wait until a tragedy happens to start doing something about these serious safety issues.
Claustraphobia and motion sickness has also become an issue on long journeys as there is minimal natural light or the ability to see outside which lessen the chance of motion sickness.
Picture being locked in the back of a box van/truck then take a long bumpy journey:mad:

Don't forget the side door opens backwards hence the nickname suicide door !!!

timmywex

Quote from herald paper;

""After three incidents in the past year when vehicles caught fire for apparently no reason, all the Mercedes model ambulances, bought in 2006, are to be returned to authorised garages for inspection.

The fault is believed to involve up to a dozen vehicles and may lead to the permanent removal of the ambulances with a sub-contract for private ambulances being considered.

The HSE has ordered ambulance services in each region of the country to take all suspect vehicles out of service and have them inspected at an authorised dealer immediately""



What do they mean sub-contract for private ambulances being considered, that could be a dodgy area!

TheNog

timmywex wrote: »

The fault is believed to involve up to a dozen vehicles and may lead to the permanent removal of the ambulances with a sub-contract for private ambulances being considered.



What do they mean sub-contract for private ambulances being considered, that could be a dodgy area!

I am taking this to mean the ambulances will be contracted out to the private operators. Seems a bit like passing the buck to me but maybe Im wrong in my interpretation.

Prenderb

Maybe it's only temporary, to cover the flambulances while they're being replaced?

dredre

It doesn't help that there is only one side door/window in most of the new ambos. If you were unlucky enough to flip over and land on the left with damage to the rear door, you'd be burnt to a crisp.

Prenderb

Wouldn't you be unlucky to be in an accident that flipped the ambulance, and landed on the left hand side, having bounced off the back of the door and were on fire? Very.

Meanwhile, I saw that the quote mentioned 3 posts above included the words permanent and replacement, so my subsequent post including the words temporary and flambulance was in haste - sorry. I suppose that someone's just considering it, doesn't mean that it's definite.

dredre

Prenderb wrote: »

Wouldn't you be unlucky to be in an accident that flipped the ambulance, and landed on the left hand side, having bounced off the back of the door and were on fire? Very.

Yes.

You'd also be unlucky to be in a plane crash, but they still have seatbelts and escape slides.

deadwood

Flambulance?



I'll get me coat.

Run_to_da_hills

deadwood wrote: »

Flambulance?



I'll get me coat.

Ronsons.

During WW2 the Allies used to nick name the BSA M20 motorcycle the "Ronson" because they had a similar tendency to burst into flames.

Tango Alpha 51

dredre wrote: »

It doesn't help that there is only one side door/window in most of the new ambos. If you were unlucky enough to flip over and land on the left with damage to the rear door, you'd be burnt to a crisp.

Off the alleged 180 vehicles ordered since 2006. 120 of them would fall in to this bracket. All the "new vehicles" ordered for 08 have the new escape hatch / skylight in the roof.

ScubaDave

I have seen that voluntary ambulance services have been approached and asked for a lone of ambulances. Have seen this on paper!

Tango Alpha 51

ScubaDave wrote: »

I have seen that voluntary ambulance services have been approached and asked for a lone of ambulances. Have seen this on paper!

Won't work Scuba, vol ambulances are Type B CEN classified where as ambulances used by the HSE/DFB are Type C classified

timmywex

buzzman wrote: »

Won't work Scuba, vol ambulances are Type B CEN classified where as ambulances used by the HSE/DFB are Type C classified

Whats the difference buzzman??

ScubaDave

All i can say is that the voluntaries were approached by the HSE asking for up to date, good quality ambulances!

TheNog

If all affected 147 ambulances have now been fixed I wonder if this is a once off or another problem developing.

Here's to hoping the baby is okay


http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0115/ambulance.html

timmywex

TheNog wrote: »

If all affected 147 ambulances have now been fixed I wonder if this is a once off or another problem developing.

Here's to hoping the baby is okay


http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0115/ambulance.html

+1

Good call by the crew aswell, some units just ignore smells sometimes! Shows how dodgy these units are, thats a good few of them at this stage!

timmywex

Ripin the piss outa this whole thing on the panel atm, also the gards and their pepper spray

stop

Another one?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0215/breaking1.htm

Bang Bang

stop wrote: »

Another one?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0215/breaking1.htm

I wonder if it was a Sprinter??

We're led to believe that the fire issue was sorted.
Personally I don't like the Sprinters, they're claustraphobic to patients and staff, particularly on long runs from rural areas.
Apart from that I have concerns for the safety issues should you be in the back during a rollover accident.

Bring back the Transit;)

civdef

Wasn't the issue with the sprinters that oil engine oil was leaking from a filler cap / dipstick and soaking some insulation material, which eventually would heat up and burn?

Presumably all vehicles have been retrofitted at this stage?

Sisu200

Just seen this one, no make is mentioned

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100215/tuk-ambulance-is-destroyed-by-blaze-f858358.html

Run_to_da_hills

Sprinter.




http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Probe-into-ambulance-blaze.6074367.jp

Sisu200 wrote: »

Just seen this one, no make is mentioned

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100215/tuk-ambulance-is-destroyed-by-blaze-f858358.html

If I were Renault I would be requesting these news reporters to change their clip arts.

Leo Demidov

Was just onto the CDO, we might be in a position to make an offer on that sprinter if it comes to tender, its in better nick than some of the transits.

Sisu200

I will loan you some Jump Leads

However it is surpriseingly common, I am surprised that there is not some sort of fire supression equipment under the bonnet or fire resistant material between the engine bay and the drivers cabin. Any fire damaged ambulance I have seen there is nothing left only an empty shell

Hooch

Sisu200 wrote: »

I will loan you some Jump Leads

However it is surpriseingly common, I am surprised that there is not some sort of fire supression equipment under the bonnet or fire resistant material between the engine bay and the drivers cabin. Any fire damaged ambulance I have seen there is nothing left only an empty shell

O2 cylinders and flammable material have a way of doing that!!!:pac::pac:

Fire supression would be a good idea but I assume it would cost too much to be put in. They can justify loosing an Ambulance here and there but not kitting them out "in case":rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

How come its only Sprinter ambulances that have this problem and not other Sprinters such as courier panel vans, minibuses etc? Have Mercedes also recalled these?

Leo Demidov

Overload on the electrics? I've seen a transit van that was retro fitted for e/s use a couple of years ago, melted and burned every dang wire in it, had to go back to main dealer for full overhaul.

pingu2008

the problem is with ambulances made by WAS in germany it was these ambulances that caught fire in ireland wales and northern ireland. see older ambulances were made here and in the uk by the wilker group but the german company must be cheaper

just sort it

There was another unreported burn which didn't gut the sprinter but burnt everything under the bonnet about 4 months ago on the A1 in the North. Patient on board with doc and medic in back, all out safe.

Tango Alpha 51

pingu2008 wrote: »

the problem is with ambulances made by WAS in germany it was these ambulances that caught fire in ireland wales and northern ireland. see older ambulances were made here and in the uk by the wilker group but the german company must be cheaper

Pingu,
Whilst the above is true, the problem with merc's going on fire is nothing new. The old MWHB area have run merc sprinters for 15yrs & before that was merc 308/310. Some of the first sprinters to appear back in 1995 also caught fire. Causes were never identified as to why this happened.

Wilker did build ambulances but even some of their vehicles had problems noticably with the electrics.

Guess no one company can quite get it right even though in this day & age they should be able to.

5500

Has there been any problems with the DFB's merc's yet?

Bang Bang

eireal wrote: »

Has there been any problems with the DFB's merc's yet?

Although the new DFB ambulances are Mercs, they are automatic compared to the NAS manual transmission.
Also they are not built by WAS, I believe, so probably a much better finish too.

Tango November.

Bang Bang wrote: »

Although the new DFB ambulances are Mercs, they are automatic compared to the NAS manual transmission.
Also they are not built by WAS, I believe, so probably a much better finish too.

The new DFB ambulance was built be Wilker .
2009 Mercedes / Wilker CEN, 09 D 29011 .