UK train spotters being treated as suspect "terrorists".

Run_to_da_hills

Train spotters are having a tough time in the UK under new anti terror cops, The Prevention of Terrorism Act 2000 has been used to stop 62,584 people at railway stations and another 87,000 were questioned under "stop and search" and "stop and account" legislation.

Instead of being harassed, trainspotters, should be welcomed by the Police as extra pairs of eyes , who are "on duty" when and where there are no railway staff or police on the spot, who very familiar with normal routine operations. I used to see heaps of them at Clapham Junction .

Fortunately my interest in train spotting ended with the last of the Metrovics however I have an eye for the numerous generations of Darts and various DMU's. Beside the point, some people spend hours with cams, tape recorders and note books jotting down figurers and they shouldn't be harassed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/4123672/Trainspotters-being-stopped-under-anti-terror-powers.html

Davidth88

In my spotting days ( aircraft ) we used to get the odd hassle from the cops but not often.

Indeed as you say they often used to come to us and ask if we had seen anything odd, usually we hadn't.

The only threat in those days really came from these shores

( that dates me ! )

I hate the way the UK is becoming a police state nowadays .

Run_to_da_hills

Davidth88 wrote: »

In my spotting days ( aircraft ) we used to get the odd hassle from the cops but not often.

Indeed as you say they often used to come to us and ask if we had seen anything odd, usually we hadn't.

The only threat in those days really came from these shores

( that dates me ! )

I hate the way the UK is becoming a police state nowadays .

Next thing they will be requiring you to have a license to train spot, seems ridiculous.

The only reason I can think of the recent clamp down on train spotting is that so many stations now have sophisticated CCTV and that train spotters must be pi**ing off the authorities at security offices because they look as if they are up to something suspicious, carrying back packs, taking photos and notes etc.

If it wasn't for train spotters in the past we wouldn't have much of the footage and photos available on Eiretrains, Utube and Flicker. http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2255156011_5754ddab17.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/jncarter1962/2255156011/&usg=__fR-SfKK8EViZl_q5hV0sASte5ts=&h=331&w=500&sz=117&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=-FnLpQx4St10SM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcie%2Btrains%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Cookie_Monster

[Police walk over to Trainspoter]

Police: Excuse me sir, random stop and question

Trainspoter: No problem

Police: Can I ask your business here [checks details and bag]

Trainspoter: I'm a trainspoter

Police: Thank you for your time, enjoy your day

And no hassle at all.... The Police in the UK are actually quite decent and professional about the whole stop and search thing and generally chat while doing it.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

[Police walk over to Trainspoter]

Police: Excuse me sir, random stop and question

Trainspoter: No problem

Police: Can I ask your business here [checks details and bag]

Trainspoter: I'm a trainspoter

Police: Thank you for your time, enjoy your day

And no hassle at all.... The Police in the UK are actually quite decent and professional about the whole stop and search thing and generally chat while doing it.

Not as easy as that according to some press reports, some trainspotters have been accused of "behaving like reconnaissance agents for terrorist cells" Others have been told to "stop and move on" or else face arrest. Footage and personal notes being examined by the authorities.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105207/The-train-spotters-treated-like-terrorists.html

Sean9015

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

[Police walk over to Trainspoter]

Police: Excuse me sir, random stop and question

Trainspoter: No problem

Police: Can I ask your business here [checks details and bag]

Trainspoter: I'm a trainspoter

Police: Thank you for your time, enjoy your day

And no hassle at all.... The Police in the UK are actually quite decent and professional about the whole stop and search thing and generally chat while doing it.

Having known someone stopped like this, it is by no means that polite or straightforward. The person concerned had his bag turend out, camera photos (digital) viewed, and was frisked (sp). He was a 66 year old grandfather with his 8 year old grandson on a public road overlooking a railway line. The response to the formal complaint was along the ".. at times like this we take security very seriously ..." type.

Trainspotters are largely white and male, and so can be targeted to "balance" the race figures far more easily wihtout much risk of danger to the officers concerned.

The problem is also more widespread than just the police; the plastic bobbies (PCSOs) are also a big issue, and the private "security" firms at stations often even worse, despite having fewer / no powers - although in some areas railway employees also are, shall we say, over zealous. All this despite clear guidleines being issued by Network Rail, ATOC and the BtP...

Run_to_da_hills

Slight change in thread title.

Nostradamus

Sounds like 'Common Purpose' have found another harmless social activity to undermine. As much I get annoyed at trainspotters who expect tax payers to fund their hobby, this police state stuff is out of the control. I do feel for these lads who are doing nothing wrong taking a few photos of trains and being treated like terrorists. Tip-Toe Totallitarianism towards a full EU police state really when you think about it.

Only a matter of time before the trainspotters here in Ireland will be subject to the same intimidation and harrassment. Can't be having people socialising in community groups and hobbies now can we... They are far too likely to start talking to each other about how their freedoms are being taken away little by little or how all government policy is nothing but spin and PR. Better to keep them at home watching X-factor and Big Brother or worried about Brad and Angelina. Taking pictures of trains..."that's a security risk". It's a less obvious form of Martial Law in some ways which becomes very apparent once you see it for what it really is.

Davidth88

As much I get anoyed at trainspotters who expect tax payers to fund their hobby,

eh ?

Believe me it's not nice being turned over by the police . The couple of times it happened to me you had your bag turned out ( onto the floor with your radio/camara/bins crashing to the floor ), then intimidated and I even had pages torn out of my notebook . That was 30 years ago as a teenager .

The MOD plods were the worst , I remember one time at a airfield in the middle of nowhere having all sorts of hassle them threatening to arrest us/take our car etc and we were on a public footpath doing no harm to anyone , they were just bored.

Calina

Nostradamus wrote: »

..As much I get annoyed at trainspotters who expect tax payers to fund their hobby...

Hmmm...

______________________

Ironically enough, there was massive outcry in the UK a few years back when the Greek authorities had the gall to arrest a few British plane spotters at an airshow near a military base. 2001 if I recall rightly and if the search engine doesn't lie.

I guess the circle has come around a bit.

Nostradamus

Davidth88 wrote: »

eh ?

Believe me it's not nice being turned over by the police . The couple of times it happened to me you had your bag turned out ( onto the floor with your radio/camara/bins crashing to the floor ), then intimidated and I even had pages torn out of my notebook . That was 30 years ago as a teenager

That would of been unusual back then. But you hear this kind of thing more and more now. It's getting out of control. It really goes to show that anyone doing something other than watching TV or shopping these days is subject to intimidation. EU Soviet here we come - and I can see serious fines being eventually imposed if more and more people do not stand up to this now. The moronic halfwit "jobsworth" goon of the past - is todays "terrorism prevention professional".

parsi

Nostradamus wrote: »

Tip-Toe Totallitarianism towards a full EU police state really when you think about it.

It would seem to be generally more to do with UK police state really.

Continental Europeans don't seem to take too much notice but I suppose they don't have the same lorry-loads turning up.

In theory it would be an ideal way of performing any observation - be it for nefarious or non-nefarious purposes.

DWCommuter

In these post 911 paranoid times, it not really a surprise. Especially when we factor in the Madrid train bombing.

Nostradamus

DWCommuter wrote: »

In these post 911 paranoid times, it not really a surprise. Especially when we factor in the Madrid train bombing.

Can't agree with this. Trainspotters for all their faults do not deserve to be treated like criminals. There is a basic human rights issue here which is being undermined in the name of preventing terrorism.

corktina

the problem isnt trainspotters looking like terrorists, its terrorists looking like trainspotters.What better way to plant a device than to carry a duffle bag and wear National Health specs and board a train?

Its a small price to pay if it prevents just one atrocity.

The problem to be solved is to get the Jobsworth types to use some common sense.

I ,having a clear conscience, would not object to be approched for this reason.

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

the problem isn't trainspotters looking like terrorists, its terrorists looking like trainspotters.What better way to plant a device than to carry a duffle bag and wear National Health specs and board a train?

Its a small price to pay if it prevents just one atrocity.

The problem to be solved is to get the Jobsworth types to use some common sense.

I having a clear conscience, would not object to be approached for this reason.

Any of the trainspotters I have noticed stand passively at the end of a platform taking notes and photographing trains and would look no more a treat than any other passennger carrying a backpack.

I am sure station staff know all the regulars well enough even by name. If the authorities played it right they should have a dignified meeting between the rail staff and these guys and introduce themselves to each other.

As I said before these guys could be an additional pair of eyes for security if they played their cards right.

Davidth88

I ,having a clear conscience, would not object to be approched for this reason.

If it was just approched and having a few words, maybe glancing in your bag then that would be ok.

I suspect that these poor guys ( usually guys ) are subjected to the bullying that I was subjected to 30 years ago with the police deliberately trying to break your gear, tearing up your books treading on your stuff and generally intimidating you.
I don't KNOW this is the case of course , but I do suspect it.

The police would know ( or should know ) who are the regular spotters on their patch and use them . Of course half of the police just think these guys are sad anoracks that they can bully.

I am a little confused as to what harm spotters could get up to , a previous poster mentioned

In theory it would be an ideal way of performing any observation - be it for nefarious or non-nefarious purposes.

Observing what ? that the 17:15 was type xxx with yyyy number or something ? If a person wants to look at the security surrounding a station then posing as a commuter / traveller would be just as effective.

Do station staff / cleaning staff have security clearance ( I bet not ).

The only thing I can think of is photography ....

seamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Any of the trainspotters I have noticed stand passively at the end of a platform taking notes and photographing trains and would look no more a treat than any other passennger carrying a backpack.

...

As I said before these guys could be an additional pair of eyes for security if they played their cards right.

It goes both ways. As has been pointed out, it would be very easy for a terrorist to masquerade as a trainspotter, standing passively at the end of a platform, taking notes and photographing trains. So while they could be extra eyes and ears, how are police to know who are the extra eyes and ears, and who are the troublemakers.

FWIW, I do believe that it's an exercise in visibility and lip service, and actions like these will do very little to prevent any actual terrorism and will only serve to stir up dissent.

Davidth88 wrote: »

I suspect that these poor guys ( usually guys ) are subjected to the bullying that I was subjected to 30 years ago with the police deliberately trying to break your gear, tearing up your books treading on your stuff and generally intimidating you.
I don't KNOW this is the case of course , but I do suspect it.

Your suspicions are groundless though to be fair. Policing has changed a lot in 30 years, especially in the UK. Imagine saying, "I suspect all Irish people entering the UK are being heavily questioned and sometimes detained and deported for no reason. That's what happened 30 years ago, so it's reasonable to assume it's happening now."

Of course half of the police just think these guys are sad anoracks that they can bully.

Actually, the main problem is co-operation. In my own experience, very few police officers in any western country are on any kind of power trip. If you co-operate, you're treated with respect and you get on your way very quickly. If you're disrespectful, arrogant, uncooperative or otherwise hostile, all you accomplish is holding yourself up and being subjected to hostile attitudes in return.
I imagine most trainspotters would fall into the hostile non-conformist bracket and so would bring harsher treatment on themselves.

I am a little confused as to what harm spotters could get up to , a previous poster mentioned

Spotters themselves would be no trouble, but as I mention, someone with the intention to cause problems could easily pose as one.

Observing what ? that the 17:15 was type xxx with yyyy number or something ? If a person wants to look at the security surrounding a station then posing as a commuter / traveller would be just as effective.

Observing patterns - which are the busiest trains/times; When the security change shifts, take breaks and do their rounds; Looking for convenient hiding places for equipment; etc. These are things which you couldn't reliably do if you were just passing through as a commuter.

I do feel though that this is a monumental waste of police time and is counter-productive in terms of PR.

Nostradamus

corktina wrote: »

the problem isnt trainspotters looking like terrorists, its terrorists looking like trainspotters.What better way to plant a device than to carry a duffle bag and wear National Health specs and board a train?

Can you show me one single example of when this ever happened? Because he "might" be a terrorist pretending to be a trainspotter. What next his note book "might" be the Koran.

Look what happened the Brazillian lad in London. Do you really want to live in a world were if you take out a notebook or a camera on a train platform half a dozen MOSSAD trained monkeys in police uniforms empty six bullets into your head because you "might" look like a terrorist.

We are having our freedoms taken away by the same people who claim to be protecting us. Not good.

corktina

a bit OTT dont you think? The Brazilian lad was a huge cock up, made worse cos the guy wouldnt stop....put yourself in the cops place, you are chasing someone who you believe has a bomb strapped to him who might detonate it at any second....enough to make anyones trigger finger itchy.

No I cant give you one example although obviously it would only take one incident to make all the searches totally worthwhile.

Nostradamus

corktina wrote: »

a bit OTT dont you think? The Brazilian lad was a huge cock up, made worse cos the guy wouldnt stop....

Tell that to his family.

It was a summary execution, the MOSSAD trained cops lied through their teeth and guess what, it just happened again the other day:

The video showed the cop cold bloodily shooting the guy in the back and then claiming it was an accident so they had to lie and confescate mobile phones nearby.

Police fatally shoot man at Oakland train station

Thursday, Jan. 01, 2009

By SUDHIN THANAWALA - Associated Press Writer


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OAKLAND, Calif. -- A 22-year-old man died Thursday after being shot on an Oakland train station platform by a transit agency police officer responding to reports of fighting on an arriving train, officials said.
The Bay Area Rapid Transit officer's gun went off while police were trying to restrain 22-year-old Oscar Grant at BART's Fruitvale station around 2:15 a.m. Thursday, agency spokesman Jim Allison said.
Grant was taken to a nearby hospital and pronounced dead later Thursday morning, Allison said.

Authorities said they were still investigating whether the gun was fired on purpose or accidentally.
"It's clear that it was a volatile situation with young men who were arguing and in fact had continued to argue even in the presence of multiple police officers," Allison said.
Five officers had gathered on the platform as the train arrived from San Francisco following reports that two groups of men were fighting on the train near the West Oakland station two stops earlier, officials said.
The men continued to yell at each other after the train stopped, and police were in the process of separating the men when the bullet struck Grant, Allison said.
No one involved in the alleged fighting was arrested following the incident. Two men were detained for questioning but released.
Officials have not publicly identified the officer, who has served on the force for just under two years.
The officer was placed on administrative leave as authorities investigate whether proper police procedures had been followed and whether the shooting was a crime, Allison said.

I am sorry but cops are far more deadly to the traveling public than trainspotters based on current history. Please stop buying into this Police State propaganda.

amacachi

Nostradamus wrote: »

the MOSSAD trained cops

So it was the Jews, I knew it!

corktina

thats awful, what were the Metropolitan Police doing in Oakland!!!!



:rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

That Bart incident in Oakland has already turned nasty.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL

Nostradamus

amacachi wrote: »

So it was the Jews, I knew it!

Considering one half of my family is Jewish I shall pass on your concerns to them. No doubt they'll be delighted by your heroic actions in defeating anti-semitism on the net as oppose to actually debating the point.

Mossad are really an American secret police service when you look into it. No go back to your mammy and have her change your nappy.

Nostradamus

corktina wrote: »

thats awful, what were the Metropolitan Police doing in Oakland!!!!



:rolleyes:

We are talking about a human life here. Glad you find it all so amusing and entertaining.

Hellm0

Seriously, why harass trainspotters? Why harass people traveling by plane? All of this talk of "terrorists" is a complete smoke screen. The truth is quite simple; should someone want to actually commit an act of terrorism it is ridiculously easy to do so. Public transport, busy intersections, shopping centers are all such easy targets it is ridiculous to think that this kind of police state bullying is to combat terrorism and not to feed a thriving security industry.

The real problem here is that we, and especially the UK, are allowing the slow but sure dissolution of our individual rights. In the name of what? Greater security? Are we any safer now because of these kinds of intrusions?

The logic used to bring this kind of draconian nonsense into power is inherently flawed, were there a plausible threat to be dealt with then certainly concessions in the form of the citizenry's personal freedom might be justifiable (only barely) but we are being led to believe that there are potential terrorists on every street corner, which simply is not true (and in truth reminds me of 1950's America where communists were the boogieman of the day).

Nostradamus

Hellm0 wrote: »

Seriously, why harass trainspotters? Why harass people traveling by plane? All of this talk of "terrorists" is a complete smoke screen. The truth is quite simple; should someone want to actually commit an act of terrorism it is ridiculously easy to do so. Public transport, busy intersections, shopping centers are all such easy targets it is ridiculous to think that this kind of police state bullying is to combat terrorism and not to feed a thriving security industry.

The real problem here is that we, and especially the UK, are allowing the slow but sure dissolution of our individual rights. In the name of what? Greater security? Are we any safer now because of these kinds of intrusions?

The logic used to bring this kind of draconian nonsense into power is inherently flawed, were there a plausible threat to be dealt with then certainly concessions in the form of the citizenry's personal freedom might be justifiable (only barely) but we are being led to believe that there are potential terrorists on every street corner, which simply is not true (and in truth reminds me of 1950's America where communists were the boogieman of the day).

Well said. It's gettting out of control. But just look at how well it has worked on so many people. They actually defend this bull****.

corktina

Nostradamus wrote: »

We are talking about a human life here. Glad you find it all so amusing and entertaining.

no we arent , we are supposed tio be talking about trainspotters getting harassed....you are waaay off topic.

Nostradamus

corktina wrote: »

no we arent , we are supposed tio be talking about trainspotters getting harassed....you are waaay off topic.

Not really. It's all part of a greater culture which is making public transport/air travel as well as public transport locations a "sinister and dangerous" experience as part of some bogus security measures which result in no real improved safety for the travelling public. That guy in Oakland was not a terrorist - maybe a skanger but he did not deserve to be gunned down like a dog. These situations come about because of a sense of overwhelming paranioa which Goverments exploit and feed because most politicians are scum in case you haven't noticed.

There is more chance of a comet coming from space and landing on you while waitng for the 7:05AM from Maynooth than there is of a terrorist blowing you up. We do not need trainspotters anywhere being intimidated so armed cops can patrol our train stations or airports asking us for "our papers" creating a sense of danger and intimidation. This is the kind of thing which will drive people off public transport because it will never be anything other than a negative, highly charged situaiton.

You pick on trainspotters for acting suspicious, you pick on all of us. Their civil rights are ours too and this crap has to stop now. I do not want to live in a police state like the US or UK. They are picking on the trainspotters because they see them as an easy target. It'll be the rest of us tomorrow.

corktina

Nostradamus wrote: »

Not really.


yes really....and you are talking crap too

Victor

Um, I'm not sure if this is a C&T thread anymore. Can we keep it to the (current) title - UK train spotters being treated as suspect "terrorists" and directly related matters. Take the rest of if to Politics or Humanities.

DWCommuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

Can't agree with this. Trainspotters for all their faults do not deserve to be treated like criminals. There is a basic human rights issue here which is being undermined in the name of preventing terrorism.

You have to agree with what I said, because I said its not surprising that its happening after terrorist attacks on transport. It is happening. Conspiracy/police state or not. Thats why the thread started in the first place. I did not say it was right or wrong, just that it doesn't surprise me. You disagree with the treatment of trainspotters and I assume not with what I said. Now for my feelings on it.

If you believe in conspiracy theories and that police states are developing, then you will have big problems with this. Fair enough. If, like me you know Elvis is dead and that we already live in police states, you can enjoy the happy halfway medium of contentment and understanding that we are all ****ed, we know were ****ed and there is absolutely no way that we have conspired to look ****ed.:D

Can't speak for the states, but the UK, from what Ived witnessed, is on the edge of extreme paranoia. They had the IRA (right/wrong - good cause/bad cause - not here please) and now the possibility of discontented muslims launching attacks. Its not just trainspotters. Theres a culture over there whereby everyone that does anything different to a worker ant routine is considered a possible threat. Freedoms, liberties etc may well be threatened, but its nothing new. My father was arrested and detained for 6 hours at a UK airport in 1970 while on honeymoon. Why? Because he fitted the description of an IRA suspect. The IRA were easy for the British. Basically any Irishman was up for grabs. These days the threat is very very different and the methods and results are far greater casualty makers. Everyone is up for grabs over there now. Train enthusiasts are just part of the suspicion package now evolving in the mindset of UK law enforcers. They hang out in places where there is an established threat of a terrorist attack. Rightly or wrongly, questioning or harrassment will now happen and as with many past times or behavioural patterns, changing societies will bring changes in what we do and how we act. Just look at how child abuse has changed how we interact with children. I wouldn't even dream of stopping the car to ask a youngster for directions. The powers that be drive these changes. Train enthusiasts are just the latest victims of society's further fall into the hands of wrong doers.

Calina

Alright. I really agree with Victor on this one. It's not really a C&T thread any more.

I'm at loss whether to bat it to politics or to humanities because I can't help feeling that it'll get batted back here. So I think I will just close it instead.