Begging and bending over to get the US.

lostexpectation

Ihre Papiere, bitte!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1231/1230581504792.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0105/visa.html
so now you have to give all sorts do details and write a begging letter to get into the US.

this is good blog on it, search around it

http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001273.html

some guy in the us asked for his details and the duch klm, said er we no idea who how to tell you what info we've got on your or who is using it.

seanybiker

k i couldnt make out the last part ya said lol.
I dont think its a bad idea at all. Its not gonna kill anyone filling in a bit of crap.
We should be doing the same ourselves.

Ponster

lostexpectation wrote: »

some guy in the us asked for his details and the duch klm, said er we no idea who how to tell you what info we've got on your or who is using it.

Well then he should read Boards.ie !


The Travel Forum has had a sticky for 5 months about this.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055347044

They don't ask you anything that you don't normal give at the moment and is basically an electronic version of the i-94 form you usually fill out on the plane.

lostexpectation

and i went to the travel forum and didn't see I never look at the part of the screen with stickies.

the tales of abuse and misuse and mismanagement of this information are endless just look at the link.

Ponster

lostexpectation wrote: »

I never look at the part of the screen with stickies.

Best way to avoid infractions is to read the stickies

Overheal

Ponster wrote: »

They don't ask you anything that you don't normal give at the moment and is basically an electronic version of the i-94 form you usually fill out on the plane.

an i-94 which is good for 2 years. So you wont be having to fill on out every time you go, and have to ask yourself "am I a Nazi?"

lostexpectation

http://www.papersplease.org/wp/2008/12/18/us-eu-agreement-to-disagree/

According to a letter from the Vice-President of the EC to DHS Secrtary Chertoff, as published by Statewatch, Chertoff “fail[ed] to answer any of the specific questions we asked” about the ESTA. Instead, Chertoff replied that “the data we gather under US law from those seeking to enter the United States is not subject to negotiation.

(The ECJ ruling, in a lawsuit brought by the European Parliament, was based solely on the improper legal basis for the “agreement”. Any new agreement, even if adopted on a different basis, would still be vulnerable to challenge under EU law as a violation of fundamental rights.)”

n the meantime, airlines, travel agencies, and Computerized Reservation Systems (CRSs) that send PNR data and other travel records from the EU to the USA remain in ongoing violation — crying out for both complaints to national and EU enforcement authorities, and private litigation — of national data protection laws and the EU Code of Conduct for CRS’s.


could it be any more clearer, these type of restrictions have alread casued choas in france and brazil and from here too.

vibe666

not being funny, but it's their country and they have every right to ask you whatever they want. if you don't like they way they do things just do what I do and don't go there.

there's plenty of places you can go that have rules (a kind of 'constitution') about freedom of speech and expression and civil liberties etc. oh, wait....:eek:

Sharpshooter

Thread title led me to believe it was about something else altogether.:(

BaconZombie

And once you in it's not any better....

Statement Of Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.)
Homeland Security Subcommittee Hearing
On The DHS Fiscal Year 2009 Budget
March 4, 2008

I’m worried only because we don’t have the adequate number of people on the border. We sometimes have hours, hours wait, just for tourist to go across the border. And of course it will get worse once it starts to require more paperwork. Many of the lanes aren’t open, we are short of people there. But somehow we can put symbolic checkpoints 100 miles from the border.

It’s interesting - I went through one of those symbolic checkpoints in the state of New York driving back here. It was about 125 miles from the border. In a car with license plate one on it from Vermont. With little letters underneath it that said US Senate. We were stopped and ordered to get out of the car and prove my citizenship. And I said “what authority are you acting under?” and one of your agents pointed to his gun and said “that’s all the authority I need.” Encouraging way to enter our country.

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200803/030408b.html

Cookie_Monster

Simple solution - don't go to the US, there are far nicer, better places out there that don't require such ridiculous and tedius paperwork.

They probably didn't need as much paperwork to get into Iraq:D

thelordofcheese

lostexpectation wrote: »

Ihre Papiere, bitte!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1231/1230581504792.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0105/visa.html
so now you have to give all sorts do details and write a begging letter to get into the US.

this is good blog on it, search around it

http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001273.html

some guy in the us asked for his details and the duch klm, said er we no idea who how to tell you what info we've got on your or who is using it.

It's their country, if they want to have you give a blood sample before entering then they are well within their right to.

If you don't like it, don't go. Sweet jesus the overactive sense of entitlement some people have.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Simple solution - don't go to the US, there are far nicer, better places out there that don't require such ridiculous and tedious paperwork.

The whole idea of this on line bureaucracy is to give the US authorities time to check out your profile to make sure that you are not a "terrorist" in otherwords someone that dose not agree with US policies.

The US has already noticed a huge drop in tourism and much of it can be blamed on all this paranoia and scaremongering along with draconian security procedures.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The US has already noticed a huge drop in tourism and much of it can be blamed on all this paranoia and scaremongering with draconian security procedures.

Like finger printing everyone who comes into the country, thanks but no.

0ubliette

lostexpectation wrote: »

Ihre Papiere, bitte!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1231/1230581504792.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0105/visa.html
so now you have to give all sorts do details and write a begging letter to get into the US.

this is good blog on it, search around it

http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001273.html

some guy in the us asked for his details and the duch klm, said er we no idea who how to tell you what info we've got on your or who is using it.

OH TEH NOES! etc.

Its an electronic version of the green form you have to fill in on the plane. THE ****ING NAZIS!! HOW DARE THEY! IM GONNA BLOG ABOUT THIS SMASH THE SYSTEM ETC

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Like finger printing everyone who comes into the country, thanks but no.

And insisting on the roll out of chipped passports since Oct 2006.

Cookie_Monster

[Puts on Tinfoil hat]

Damn Americans!!

[Takes off and stores tinfoil hat for next time American travel is mentioned]

vibe666

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

And insisting on the roll out of chipped passports since Oct 2006.

hmm, chips.

seriously though, they obviously don't want us to go there so why bother?

unless you really want to see it whilst it's still there before 'da terrorists' blow it all to kingdom come (or they do it themselves).

AckwelFoley

Best way around this is, dont ask to gain entry to their country.

im off to the USA in 3 weeks. Woot.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The US has already noticed a huge drop in tourism and much of it can be blamed on all this paranoia and scaremongering along with draconian security procedures.

Ok here's a possible scenario:
Some guy in a US economic think thank has a bit of a lightbulb over his head moment and says "Hey wait a minute guys, we're losing more tourist dollars because of these Homeland laws than we would lose due to terrorist attacks if we just repealed them."
So they roll back some of the stricter laws and watch the tourist industry boom again.
Then they suffer another boom, one of a more violent nature. Thousands of people die.

Then what happens? RTDH posts in AH instead of CT about how the terrorist incident could have been prevented but the US were too interested in getting money from tourism to have proper counter-terrorism laws.

Moral of the story? Some people will complain no matter what you do.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The US has already noticed a huge drop in tourism and much of it can be blamed on all this paranoia and scaremongering along with draconian security procedures.

Yeah I hate scaremongering.

vibe666

will filling out a couple of forms and asking someone if they ARE actually a terrorist or not really stop a determined terrorist from getting into the country?

or is it just another way of keeping the populace scared into accepting new laws that eat away at their civil liberties?

or am I just a paranoid scaremongerer?

Rb

I don't see any harm in it and it's a pity we don't have stricter laws and procedures surrounding immigration ourselves.

Ponster

vibe666 wrote: »

or am I just a paranoid scaremongerer?

Seeing as this is pretty mush just an electronic version of a form that we've been filling out now for 22-odd years I'd say yes.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Ok here's a possible scenario:
Some guy in a US economic think thank has a bit of a lightbulb over his head moment and says "Hey wait a minute guys, we're losing more tourist dollars because of these Homeland laws than we would lose due to terrorist attacks if we just repealed them."
So they roll back some of the stricter laws and watch the tourist industry boom again.
Then they suffer another boom, one of a more violent nature. Thousands of people die.

Then what happens? RTDH posts in AH instead of CT about how the terrorist incident could have been prevented but the US were too interested in getting money from tourism to have proper counter-terrorism laws.

Moral of the story? Some people will complain no matter what you do.

Who created 9/11 :rolleyes:

(A topic that has been flogged to death in CT throughout the world).

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Who created 9/11 :rolleyes:

I'm guessing it was the Lizzards!

Look there are terrorists out there even if 9/11 (which I didn't mention btw) was some grand conspiracy. :rolleyes: If the US cut back on their homeland security restrictions, there probably would be a terrorist attack at some stage.

My point is that if that happened, you'd probably be the first person on here complaining that the US could have prevented it but didn't because they didn't want to lose tourist dollars. Just like the Ford Pinto thing.

buynow

vibe666 wrote: »

will filling out a couple of forms and asking someone if they ARE actually a terrorist or not really stop a determined terrorist from getting into the country?

It won't stop them coming in, but it will provide the US an excuse to kick them out, as they can prosecute the terrorist or Nazis or whoever who lies about it for fraud on entry to the country, and prevent them from any future immigration benefits. There was a case recently where they deported an old man who had been living in the country for years (became a citizen etc) because he lied about being a Nazi on his forms.

The Nazi Germany one nowadays is funny, I think it is probably safe to drop that one by now. (I wonder did the pope have to put it on his form?)

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

I'm guessing it was the Lizzards!

Look there are terrorists out there even if 9/11 (which I didn't mention btw) was some grand conspiracy. :rolleyes: If the US cut back on their homeland security restrictions, there probably would be a terrorist attack at some stage.

My point is that if that happened, you'd probably be the first person on here complaining that the US could have prevented it but didn't because they didn't want to lose tourist dollars. Just like the Ford Pinto thing.

All I am saying is that international travel is now becoming a hassle to countries like such as America and people are being put off traveling there for fear of deportation. People who have committed petty offenses and overstayed visas in the past etc. One should not need to reveal what they had for breakfast before they get on the plane.

It is getting ridiculous, not just the US but it is also creeping in across Europe between authorities sharing our personal data, medical, religious and police files on all records including petty offenses, sexual orientation, DNA, biometric scanning etc to be shared between the EU and US. The real terrorists are having a ball because they will slip in through other routes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1118/1226961467105.html?via=mr

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

All I am saying is that international travel is now becoming a hassle to countries like such as America and people are being put off traveling there for fear of deportation. People who have committed petty offenses and overstayed visas in the past etc. One should not need to reveal what they had for breakfast before they get on the plane.

Yes international travel is becoming a hassle due in no small part to increased terrorism threats I imagine. Some of it is undoubtedly overkill but hey if you don't like it, don't go.

Why should people who have committed offenses in the past (petty or otherwise) or who have overstayed visas not have to disclose that? A country is entitled to keep certain people out if they want.

It is getting ridiculous, not just the US but it is also creeping in across Europe between authorities sharing our personal data, medical, religious and police files on all records including petty offenses, sexual orientation, DNA, biometric scanning etc to be shared between the EU and US. The real terrorists are having a ball because they will slip in through other routes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1118/1226961467105.html?via=mr

I do kind of agree with you on the information sharing bit. I've nothing to hide and don't usually get wound up over minor things like this but I don't like the idea that the US can get my data even if I have no intention to travel there.

In reality though, it will probably only mean biometric databases being accessible for suspect identification. Nothing that's going to keep me up at night.

0ubliette

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

All I am saying is that international travel is now becoming a hassle to countries like such as America and people are being put off traveling there for fear of deportation. People who have committed petty offenses and overstayed visas in the past etc. One should not need to reveal what they had for breakfast before they get on the plane.

It is getting ridiculous, not just the US but it is also creeping in across Europe between authorities sharing our personal data, medical, religious and police files on all records including petty offenses, sexual orientation, DNA, biometric scanning etc to be shared between the EU and US. The real terrorists are having a ball because they will slip in through other routes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1118/1226961467105.html?via=mr

I must've missed that part where it asked me what i had for breakfast. Didnt see it anywhere. All i saw were the same old questions ive had to tick 'no' to every time ive been to the states for the last 7 years.
If filling in the address of where youre staying and flight number, and ticking no to a bunch of questions asking 'do you have aids/are you a nazi' is too much like big brother for you, might i suggest not going to America and quit bitching?

BroomBurner

But America has these... http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jan/06/steven-wells-cheerleaders-sex-drugs-booze-scandals

karen3212

some people have to travel to the states for work, so if you don't want to go there quit your job too

pepsicokeacola

oh no im so upset.

Neamhshuntasach

vibe666 wrote: »

not being funny, but it's their country and they have every right to ask you whatever they want. if you don't like they way they do things just do what I do and don't go there.

there's plenty of places you can go that have rules (a kind of 'constitution') about freedom of speech and expression and civil liberties etc. oh, wait....:eek:

Well i'm only transiting through Newark to Bogotá next week and i still need to fill it out. I'd rather a direct flight but unfortunately there are none. I'm not complaining as it's no more info than needed for the I-94 form. But for people who do care, the above should be an exception.

Donald-Duck

RTDH should be banned from making threads

Run_to_da_hills

0ubliette wrote: »

I must've missed that part where it asked me what i had for breakfast. Didn't see it anywhere.

They already know that from your loyalty cards. :rolleyes:

0ubliette wrote: »

might i suggest not going to America and quit bitching?

Been there for several years and no intention of going back.

Donald-Duck

Donald-Duck wrote: »

RTDH should be banned from making threads

Oh I didn't even look at the OP, I was wrong about it being an RTDH thread :eek:

Run_to_da_hills

Donald-Duck wrote: »

RTDH should be banned from making threads

I suggest some people remain in Disneyland rather than face reality. :rolleyes:

thelordofcheese

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I suggest some people remain in Disneyland rather than face reality. :rolleyes:

You'd do very well to heed your own advice.

Donald-Duck

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I suggest some people remain in Disneyland rather than face reality. :rolleyes:

I'll have you know Donald Duck existed long before Disneyland

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I suggest some people remain in Disneyland rather than face reality. :rolleyes:

At one point, that was one of the world's biggest users of biometrics. I wouldn't have thought you'd be a fan.

Hellm0

I seriously don't get the blatant hostility towards poor RTDH, the guy is expressing his viewpoint not murdering babies live via web cam.

Also the whole "Don't like it then don't go" argument rings hollow, it's up there with "like it or leave it" and "to get into heaven you must be a christian". People are allowed to complain about unjust or unreasonable restrictions upon their movement and travel. I have a green card and I have to worry every time I leave the US cause I can be refused re-entry at the drop of a hat (the guys t the border can literally just tear up my card and tell me to f off). I suppose the argument there is if I don't like risking the possibility of not returning then I should never leave.

Guy:Incognito

Drop in tourism during a gloabl recession? Yep, must be due to them changing immigration procedures.

Hellm0 wrote: »

Also the whole "Don't like it then don't go" argument rings hollow, it's up there with "like it or leave it" and "to get into heaven you must be a christian". People are allowed to complain about unjust or unreasonable restrictions upon their movement and travel. I have a green card and I have to worry every time I leave the US cause I can be refused re-entry at the drop of a hat (the guys t the border can literally just tear up my card and tell me to f off). I suppose the argument there is if I don't like risking the possibility of not returning then I should never leave.

You talking about going to another country where you are a guest. You dotn have some sort of divine right to roam anywhere you please when it suites you. Just like I'd have to ask your permission and abide by your rules if I want to go to your house.

Hellm0

Stekelly wrote: »

Drop in tourism during a gloabl recession? Yep, must be due to them changing immigration procedures.






You talking about going to another country where you are a guest. You dotn have some sort of divine right to roam anywhere you please when it suites you. Just like I'd have to ask your permission and abide by your rules if I want to go to your house.

In truth I don't really believe in the practice of selective immigration and border control, in the US particularly(given the united states history) it really doesn't seem fitting that they cherry pick who they let in and who they don't.

But then I don't really believe in a federal state anyway. Also your argument about someone entering in my house is incorrect, a house is a private residence not a sovereign nation. Try telling the department of homeland security that it's against the rules to wear shoes in your house and see where it gets ya.

thelordofcheese

Hellm0 wrote: »

Also your argument about someone entering in my house is incorrect, a house is a private residence not a sovereign nation. Try telling the department of homeland security that it's against the rules to wear shoes in your house and see where it gets ya.

Erm, in the analogy the 'house' is the US, the people answering the door are homeland security so yeah, do as you are told or stay outside.

vibe666

not sure if this is still the case, but I have a mate who was working a long contract in Libya and he had to apply for a Visa to get into the country which lasted 2 months and every time that was up he flew home and applied for a new one which took a month to arrive. luckily for him the company paid for the flights and all the visa's and still paid him when he was back in the UK waiting for his Visa so he was laughing (aside from being in Libya, obviously) but it goes to show that there's more difficult places to get into than the US.

it might not be fun for people wanting to go there, but as has been said many times it's their country and they can do what they want with it.