I can't compete...

TelePaul

...with the riders in the other heats...

Okay, Stones references aside, I came to something of a realisation the other day. I was ambling around X-Music recently, scoping out synths and what-not, not really with a view to buying, just ya know, perusing...anyway, one of the friendly chaps started shooting the breeze with me...and I have to admit, I really didn't have much of a handle on what he was saying.

Now I've been tinkering with music recording for a short while. It's all been very amateurish but sometimes I surprise myself. Alot of what I know has been acquired from books and forums like this one - and there's alot of good info to be had out there on the web.

Anyways, the point I'm making is that the thing I loved most about music recording was that, in the digital age, anyone could take a shot at it. And certain universal truths hold true, irrespective of the size of ones 'studio' or the quality of equipment. But now it seems, and maybe it's down to the ubiquity of organised education mechanisms, that to be taken in any way seriously, one must have the latest integrated pro-tools system, a bunch of (preferably Gold-series) wave plug-ins, and a bucnh of Neumann mics.

Who's looking out for the little guy?

Neurojazz

I have 1 waves plugin, no pro-tools and 1 cheapo NT2 Rode mike that is more than fine... i make money etc... just do well with what you have and you'll be fine

dav nagle

Hey Telepaul,

May I ask in what way are you trying to compete? All the money and gear in the world won't make someone busy in the music biz but sure you know that. If you are trying to make a living then it is definitely a hard living. The latest and greatest or the biggest doesn't mean much. Yeah you will record bands hungry for the 'latest and greatest vibe' but you will not make your money back on what it costs to run a spacecraft sized studio.

DamagedTrax

^^ what he said.

i only recently got my first digi harware, ive a few waves plugs and im saving for a couple of 2nd hand UAD1. i make a (****) living from it (there are certain government sponsored supplements that help out too it has to be said!). but this is nearly 5 years down the line.

im back in eduacation because while protools certification doesnt guarantee work, being fast around a big digi desk like an icon can only help my chances with a perspective employer i reckon.

one day im hoping a decent break will come my way though.. *drifts off into dream land**

Rockshamrover

I wonder how many people there are in Ireland into the home recording game (non-professional).

I know a few of the guys on here like Dav and Paul are managing to make a living from it but I would imagine that they are probably in the minority.

The only people making real money from home set ups are the suppliers of same. Not that I mind as I love it.

I have no expectations of ever making money from doing this but I do want to become good at the whole production business just for me. That probably means spending more than I should and always chasing the next piece of gear.

TelePaul

Hey guys. Nope, not into it professionally. And for me, home-recording is having the know-how to comprise a decent-enough demo for your band, or your mates band. But that's not really enough anymore. My point is that it seems, to be taken seriously, even by someone working in a music shop, if you have the latest SSL or Neve console.

Given that the cost of tech has come down so much, and the amount of project studios springing up about the place, 'Pro Tools' is the word on everybodys lips. My buddy was down here a few weeks back, we were chatting about music. I mentioned I dabbled in recording and mixing and immediately he goes "Whattya use? Pro Tools?". When I told him I use Cubase, he sorta blanked!

I dunno. I suppose it's like musical instruments...you must have a MESA half-stack and a Les Paul Custom to be taken seriously, when really a Mexi Strat through a small Class A will do the trick. Seems amateur recording has gone beyond the basics of good technique and focuses alot on fixing issues in the mix through re-amping or sampling.

PaulBrewer

Telepaul,

Great Post, I think you've hit the nail on the head and are realizing something that's always been the case.

The whole home recording business is based on the illusion of moving the goal posts.

'1' (the worst) has always been '1' and '10' (the best) will always been '10' - that's the case with gear and critically, experience. Neither of which come easy.

The home recording business is based on selling everyone the '5' as being the '10' ..... when in fact it's a bleedin' '5'!
There's nothing wrong with it being 5, but just acknowledge it and rock on.
This is a very central point.

Despite what is implied a Euro 200 pair of monitors will always be shyte due to the restrictions of physics - no 2 page ad in SOS will ever change that.
Similarly if one knows Pro-Tools that does not make one an engineer, experience (which leads to results) is what makes you an engineer.

So ultimately to be 'taken seriously' it's by getting results - that comes from having experience and access to the tools necessary to do it.

The Universe has a way of evening things out over time - if you're good you'll do well.

I've had many of those 'Wool removed from my eyes' moments. The last time was about 6 years ago when I used to have a room in the Factory in Dublin with a substantial amount of gear - I'd made a passable living using that equipment for the previous 5 years in my studio in the Midlands getting passable results.

I was working on a nice track for a guy who used be in a band called Mesner.
At the same time I was working with Ronan Keating in his home studio very occasionally.
He had a fabulous pair of Quested monitors on which I played my new masterpiece - oh what a revelation!

I heard all sorts of ballix goin' on I didn't like, or more importantly, know about . Compressors pumping, flabby bass, very average sounds etc etc.

I just said to myself 'I'm at nothing' and sold all my stuff. It wasn't good enough for me and wasn't going to be unless there was serious investment, this whilst I was still paying off the previous loan!

There's no shame at all in not knowing or not having - but you'd be an awful prick in my books if you didn't want to know and have (or at least have use of)

Chill out and Buzz on!

dav nagle

Regardless of owning or even using the creme de la creme of audio equipment we all have agreed here that a proper player still has the ability to blow you away with their ability and sound as opposed to the recording studio they are working in. IF they ARE proper players there is no reason with medium to high budget audio equipment one cannot record a great sounding professional album. The good rep and money should come as more and more people ask you to record their albums having heard good players/songs on the last. Eventually the time comes where your reputation as a serious audio production engineer grants you finance with the banks with which you can access or create a top end facility for the purpose of high end radio recordings. That access is payed for solely by the engineer due to his/her mission to record great sounding records and nothing else. Anything else is a bonus.

meh, i dunno...i kinda think that anyone who's seriously in this game thinking their gonna make a killing and be the next phil spectre (perhaps not the best example) is probably deluding themselves..yeah, in reality..the fact that you can put a studio together means that pretty much everyone else can as well..if you're in it for the right reasons(the art), you wont be that pushed about whether or not you get to knock out the next f*cking x factor winner hit single..in reality its pretty much down to technique..you dont even need to buy the latest waves plugs cos if you look hard enough they're knocking about tinternet anyway..from my own point of view..since ive been about 14, all i ever wanted was my own studio..once I became aware that it was possible, ive put it together..ive spent a lot of money on it..ive made a bit back..il make more back in the coming months..like, in reality, were all kidding ourselves, thinking it'l get us anywhere, given the nature of the industry at the minute, technology etc, and the wealth of information available for anyone that wants to look..yes word of mouth may get you work on another album or two..but i reckon that it'l be one of the first industries to be hit by the knock on effects of the whole recession thing too..its not like they'll be falling over themselves to be giving you two grand to mix a few tracks when they could do it themselves at home with an emu soundcard and a bit of reading..anyway, yeah, i know, im a pessimistic b*stard..hope i didn't shatter anyone's dreams either, but, like, its been obvious for a few years this was the way things were going..get a set up that works..that you can work..work on your skills..dont worry about all the rest of the whole music industry sh1te..

studiorat

It's not about the gear.

The guy who trained me in used to turn up to the studio with a cushion, a crappy pair of JBL's and an old TC EQ. When a work experience guy asked him what kind of set-up he had at home he looked at him like he was mad. "What the hell would I want a studio at home for?"

It's changed a little since then but after a certain level it's not really about the gear it's about experience and imagination!

fitz

I've some nice equipment, and some mid level/budget equipment. I can get tracks recorded fast and have a space in which I can be creative. I can put together a reasonable sounding demo of any given track I'm working on.

As Paul alluded to, the important thing is to know your limitations.
It's all very well me tracking stuff, but for a commercial release, I neither have the skills, experience nor equipment to do the job to the quality that it can be done. But most importantly, I don't have the perspective. A fresh set of ears is invaluable.
Listening to my album tracks that I'm getting back from my mixing engineer, it doesn't matter that I'm couldn't have pulled off these great mixes, it doesn't matter that I don't have the skills, gear or perspective to do it. Because I've recognised the fact and it's being done by someone who has the skills, gear and perspective. At the end of the day, it's the results that count. If you can recognise where your limitations are and work around them to produce great results, to hell with what anyone thinks.

No-one's gonna be able to tell whether you tracked an album in Cubase, Pro-Tools or Logic, they're gonna listen to it and either enjoy the experience or not. You have to do everything you can to make sure that your results are ones that will be enjoyed. If you work better in Cubase than Pro-Tools, anyone who tells you you're wrong to do so is a blinkered snob.

I remember talking to Will Quinell in Sterling Sound about this kinda thing when I was over there getting some stuff mastered. He talked about an album he'd mastered which sounded great, it really excited him, he loved the mix. The band came in to attend the session, and he discovered the whole thing had been recorded using an M-Box. He still thought it was a great album.

Results matter, not how you get them.
I'm with Paul though, I don't understand people who have no ambition to improve their situation/gear/skills/experience/whatever in order to improve their results. There's always room to get better.

Anyway, I've waffled long enough...as I said, it's all about the results, anyone who says otherwise is probably a tin roofer, to use one of Paul's technical terms.

johnnylakes

Nice post...
I'd like to believe it's the song that matters.
David Gray's White Ladder (not a fan btw) but have respect for it. Gomez' Bring it on won the Mercury Prize (recorded on an 8 track)...
Learning to use the tools I have properly is my biggest lesson so far this year

dav nagle

Learning is hugely important and one can never ever stop learning and understanding sound. Growing your business takes time also and I think the recording business is nearly as long as a masters in law, as far as it takes 7 years (in my case) before one starts getting enough work to keep them busy from :eek:songwriters/bands:eek:. I don't think the recession will effect the recording industry. People are in bands and those people have dreams to aspire to and thus need demos to listen and analyze where they are heading, it will always be that way. These bands and songwriters certainly don't want to be screwing around at home either, some do and do it well but not all could be bothered:) Paul and Fitz you are both dead right, results are what is important, if you can look someone in the eye and tell them 'I want to get you a result, it means allot to me' they will want to trust you and go with it. If on the other hand you bung 5 bands a week into your busy schedule that connection with humanity will not be there! Deleted User people who are pessimistic in my experience are placing a wall in front of them before they have even got started.To be pessimistic is a form of negativity in my opinion and negativity can block the progress of humble good being like yourself You haven't shattered my dreams only your own with that attitude :cool:

Jimbo808

Really great post and an issue that is actually becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on and people realize the restrictions of the gear they are buying on the cheap.

However, in saying that, I do believe that all the great engineers and producers have a few things in common. One of them being you could sit down anyone from Mike Dean to Bob Rock to Sylvia Massey in front of the best or worst of gear and they will get a result. They'll achieve their standard no matter what the limitations of technology imply because they have spent years perfecting the basic principles of sound and recording/production.

I think this is the key point here: Basic Principles.

I'm talking way down to the physics of how sound interacts with a humans ear and advanced mix philosophy. How speakers reproduce sound. What is happening from the moment the concurrent waveform leaves the instrument during multitracking and travels to the microphone to the time it hits the listeners ear and *EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN*.

Understanding the true nature of what you are trying to achieve is more than half the battle. Getting caught up on "gear" is such a small part of the overall goal. It's only a means. A workflow, which can be done a thousand different ways. There is no set way in doing anything, only a final product and that is the result on which success or failure is gauged. If it sounds good who cares how it was done. You must have your own standards and adhere to them unmercifully.

Finally in my opinion, the founding block on which all this is built, is education. Be it formally, or informally, education - reading - experimentation and perfection are the tools needed to succeed...in anything.

J*808

Rockshamrover

So after all of that, would it be true to say, time (Davs 7 years) and desire for knowledge are key to being a good producer/engineer?

The gear, though important, is pointless without the first two requirements?
ie getting a jumbo jet before you've even flown in a Cessna?:)

dav nagle

Rockshamrover wrote: »

So after all of that, would it be true to say, time (Davs 7 years) and desire for knowledge are key to being a good producer/engineer?

The gear, though important, is pointless without the first two requirements?
ie getting a jumbo jet before you've even flown in a Cessna?:)

Everybody has their own path to follow and for all I know my lear jet could come crashing down in a ball of flames, but I like to think positively all the time (especially in the music biz). When I let that go, I lose my drive, and when I have no drive I might as well start flipping burgers. Drive is everything to me because I am self employed. I am driven to make things work regardless of the fact that I started recording from my parents attic! I at least now can say 'I am out of there' .. I will miss my attic mind you. I never had a complaint other than it's size from anyone and you know the saying 'good things come in small sizes and all that yada yada :pac::pac::pac:


But yeah 7 long years it has been getting remotely off the ground and you can ask Paul about that. I bought my first Soundcraft (t'was tiny desk with phantom power) desk from Paul after originally starting to record on a digital 4 track. I asked him is it possible to make money doing recording from a tiny space and he said 'yes'. I did and like I mentioned earlier on I only got a few people each year but I stuck to my guns and read what I could and asked many questions. I also went to Studiorat for one to one production classes to polish up and learn ProTools and bit my lip and glad I did (Thanks Studiorat).

Now I am moving into his haunt and he is going back to his Mecca studio (Virtu Studios) in Jervis Street. So without college and with drive things are looking up. I studied music performance in college though and that was a great all rounder in instrumentation. Playing the guitar 18 years has helped to.


Really cheesy and all but Telepaul 'Keep the faith bro'

Jimbo808

dav nagle wrote: »

Really cheesy and all but Telepaul 'Keep the faith bro'

I second that, work hard, read alot and don't expect much sleep/free time/women


J*808


...ok expect SOME women!

TelePaul

Thanks for the detailed replies everyone. Lets talk more about gear; if what Pauls analogy of a 1-10 scale is true (and it makes sense), then it seems that I should realistically be able to walk into a shop and not feel like a prat for inquiring as to chinese condensors or a Behringer board.

Instead - and maybe it's because of disambiguation betweeen home-recording and an even occasionally commercially viable project studio - much emphasis is being placed on 'prosumer' gear. And that's the key word, 'prosumer', where such products have become viable through increased disposable incomes and falling prices in electronic goods. But I dont like being in a position where retailers are telling me what I need.

fitz

At the end of the day, that's just bad a bad salesperson. No-one trying to sell anything should make their potential client feel uncomfortable. The best sales people, imo, are the ones who ask questions and figure out what it is you're trying to achieve, give you all the options and make a balanced and impartial recommendation.

When someone is ramming one option in your face, I'd question their objectivity and wouldn't trust that they 1). know what they're talking about, or 2). don't have some kind of motive - commision based or otherwise.

Jimbo808

Do you have a wish list of gear that you want to pick up Tele?

dav nagle

BAD sales people will twist and turn the reality of the product in order to make a sale. So can I ask you Telepaul what gear you were talking about as a matter of enquiry? Was it microphones or compressors or what? In many shops these days unless your buying something big and expensive you won't get a decent minute to discuss what your after.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

then it seems that I should realistically be able to walk into a shop and not feel like a prat

That's kind of a decision you make - not something that 'happens' to you, if I might be so bold to suggest.

However I do agree one shouldn't have to put up with rudeness or arrogance in a shop.

With regard to gear you may have seen me refer to it as 'tools' often.
That's how I look at it, what's the right 'tool' for the job in hand - and what are the reasons for not using the correct tool.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's kind of a decision you make - not something that 'happens' to you, if I might be so bold to suggest.

Wait till I drop into Audio Warehouse and ask for a dozen Studio projects B1s...mwahahaha!

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Wait till I drop into Audio Warehouse and ask for a dozen Studio projects B1s...mwahahaha!

sE is what you want!

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

sE is what you want!

Surely he really wants Behringer!

seannash

start making dance music,the playing field is alot more level in it