Is there a need for a new rail link to the Cavan / Monaghan area?

lynchiered

Over the past few months I’ve notice that Bus Eireann are now running Double Decker Coaches to Cavan from Dublin City Center, also talking to a close family friend who uses the service i was told that on the rush hour times Two Double Decker coaches are needed for there hourly service.

I think given the info above plus the thousands of people who drive to Dublin from Cavan each morning because there isn’t a adequate transport service available that a rail link would be profitable.

It would also open other area’s up in the region like Tourism, Angling and Cross Border Business.

Wat do people think?

corktina

no case at all sorry.

lynchiered

corktina wrote: »

no case at all sorry.

Can you expand your point a little?

Sponge Bob

We already have one , there is a railway line to Kingscourt in Cavan .

I take it you have asked our visionary minister of transport, dempsey , how he intends to link Kingscourt to Dublin via Navan, and when ??

markpb

If the tracks already existed, there might be a case for a commuter service to Cavan but it wouldn't be worth building a new line. Train lines are normally built to link two cities and provide a service for towns in between. There's no city in the north-west to terminate a Cavan/Monaghan service at so the demand just wouldn't be there. At best it would become a commuter service with almost no demand in the middle of the day or at weekends.

It's possible that some of the BE services will use the M3 when it's complete. Given the pretty dire speed of trains in Ireland, a bus on the M3 would probably be faster than a train.

lynchiered

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We already have one , there is a railway line to Kingscourt in Cavan .

I take it you have asked our visionary minister of transport, dempsey , how he intends to link Kingscourt to Dublin via Navan, and when ??

Good point but isn't Kingscourt 20 - 30 mile from Cavan Town? Cavan Town been one of the main Population centers in the area.

lynchiered

markpb wrote: »

If the tracks already existed, there might be a case for a commuter service to Cavan but it wouldn't be worth building a new line. Train lines are normally built to link two cities and provide a service for towns in between. There's no city in the north-west to terminate a Cavan/Monaghan service at so the demand just wouldn't be there. At best it would become a commuter service with almost no demand in the middle of the day or at weekends.

It's possible that some of the BE services will use the M3 when it's complete. Given the pretty dire speed of trains in Ireland, a bus on the M3 would probably be faster than a train.

The Kingscourt line exists but is 20 - 30 lines from Cavan Town,

I think a better option would be below.

Track bed with stations from Navan - Kells - Virginia - Oldcastle (track bed stops would need to be connected (5 - 10miles) to the old Inny Juntion Cavan line at Ballywilliam - Crossdoney - Cavan

Stroke Politics

To make it semi-viable, complete the line from Dublin to Derry, via Cavan and Monaghan, and possibly Omagh and Strabane. It's incredible that there is no rail link between the largest and 4th largest cities on this island.....

L1011

Stroke Politics wrote: »

To make it semi-viable, complete the line from Dublin to Derry, via Cavan and Monaghan, and possibly Omagh and Strabane. It's incredible that there is no rail link between the largest and 4th largest cities on this island.....

...I must have imagined being able to get from Connolly to Waterside by train, then...

markpb

Stroke Politics wrote: »

To make it semi-viable, complete the line from Dublin to Derry, via Cavan and Monaghan, and possibly Omagh and Strabane. It's incredible that there is no rail link between the largest and 4th largest cities on this island.....

Derry isn't a city, it has a population well under 100k. Omagh and Strabane are barely towns with only 40k between them.

Running a track into the north requires even more complicated planning and two different sets of safety equipment on all the trains that could be operated on it, pushing up the costs further.

Seth Brundle

On the assumption that any new line would go from Navan, they would probably need to build the bridge at Cannistown, etc. first.

Irish and Proud

lynchiered wrote: »

Over the past few months I’ve notice that Bus Eireann are now running Double Decker Coaches to Cavan from Dublin City Center, also talking to a close family friend who uses the service i was told that on the rush hour times Two Double Decker coaches are needed for there hourly service.

I think given the info above plus the thousands of people who drive to Dublin from Cavan each morning because there isn’t a adequate transport service available that a rail link would be profitable.

It would also open other area’s up in the region like Tourism, Angling and Cross Border Business.

Wat do people think?

Come on mate!

Let's get the inter-connector done first - in the economic circumstances, we must concentrate on the basics first, although opening up the Kingscourt/Navan/Drogheda line with new P+R sites could be investigated as a medium term objective after the inter-connector becomes operational!

In the meantime, the Northern Line is pretty jam packed in terms of both the number of trains and the number of passengers on them at rush hour, so there is little point in adding more congestion to that line before any major infrastructural work to increase capacity. Such would include the inter-connector and some form of track augmentation along parts of the Northern Line.

Regards!

murphaph

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Come on mate!

Let's get the inter-connector done first - in the economic circumstances, we must concentrate on the basics first, although opening up the Kingscourt/Navan/Drogheda line with new P+R sites could be investigated as a medium term objective after the inter-connector becomes operational!

In the meantime, the Northern Line is pretty jam packed in terms of both the number of trains and the number of passengers on them at rush hour, so there is little point in adding more congestion to that line before any major infrastructural work to increase capacity. Such would include the inter-connector and some form of track augmentation along parts of the Northern Line.

Regards!

[sarcasm]Palerail etc.!:mad: [/sarcasm]

Polar101

lynchiered wrote: »

Over the past few months I’ve notice that Bus Eireann are now running Double Decker Coaches to Cavan from Dublin City Center

I wonder how many of those people travel past Navan or Kells, though. Navan should be covered by the rail link which might open during this century.

dowlingm

In a rational CIE system, buses would run from Cavan to Navan Railway Station and transfer passengers on the same ticket. Unfortunately, in defiance of all sense and logic, BE was told to "compete" with IE while remaining in the CIE entity.

The other problem is that where IE and BE run in parallel BE is often faster (see Nenagh-Limerick)

Nostradamus

dowlingm wrote: »

In a rational CIE system, buses would run from Cavan to Navan Railway Station and transfer passengers on the same ticket.

The solution.

Unfortunately, in defiance of all sense and logic, BE was told to "compete" with IE while remaining in the CIE entity.

The problem.

BrianD

It would be my view that a line serving cavan and monaghan would be completely unviable.


Population in labour force in cavan/monaghan: 58,380. So even if they all commuted to Dublin everyday it wouldn't justify a rail line. If you look at the stats for the both couties, you'll see that the "super commuters" are in the southern tip of cavan ane the northern half of Monaghan (are they commuting to Sligo or Enniskillen?). Remember that if a rail line was built there would be the expectation of a frequent service. The OP indicates that sometimes two coaches are needed for the hourly service to Cavan. A coach can carry 78 people which means 156 per hour. I just couldn't see if an hourly service being justified at these levels.

Given that these are dispersed accross a wide area the best way of serving this population who travel to Dublin (or elsewhere) is by bus. Bus Eireann have the right idea by increasing capacity and comfort with these new double decker buses. The investment for Cavan/Monaghan workers who commute to Dublin should be in express bus services of greater frequency. and bus lanes.

Also, the development of a rail corridor would have to be part of a national tranportation plan that leads to sustained and orderly development and not in reaction to some cowboys woho managed to get away with building suburban sprawl in Cavan villages.

IIMII

kbannon wrote: »

On the assumption that any new line would go from Navan, they would probably need to build the bridge at Cannistown, etc. first.

They have. Sank the box in 2 weeks ago, just haven't had a chance to snap it. We just need Navan's 3rd viaduct at the back of the Old Bridge Inn and we're away on a hack

corktina

lynchiered wrote: »

Can you expand your point a little?

no case at all VERY sorry?

Stroke Politics

IIMII wrote: »

They have. Sank the box in 2 weeks ago, just haven't had a chance to snap it.

I saw that when I took a drive out there before Xmas. Looking at the original rail bridge across from the new motorway bridge, it's going to be some descent for trains to go down to reach the new tunnel under the M3. Is this the sop given to complete The Sacred Highway, whilst also condemning any chance of the rail being restored?

L1011

Stroke Politics wrote: »

I saw that when I took a drive out there before Xmas. Looking at the original rail bridge across from the new motorway bridge, it's going to be some descent for trains to go down to reach the new tunnel under the M3. Is this the sop given to complete The Sacred Highway, whilst also condemning any chance of the rail being restored?

Ah shure, we can fit the trains with funicular gear for that bit...

Anyone else remember Catherine Murphy (ex TD, Cllr at the time) saying that Irish Rail would be able to fit DARTs with MAGLEV gear to get under a low bridge in Leixlip?

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

no case at all sorry.

I love a really rational, well thought out response to a suggestion. There is every case to be made for rebuilding the Inny Junction/Cavan line - far more worthwhile than the Interconnector or the WRC or Metro North. I am watching a good movie now and can't be bothered to expound further on this until tomorrow but like General MacArthur 'I will return'.

DWCommuter

Stroke Politics wrote: »

I saw that when I took a drive out there before Xmas. Looking at the original rail bridge across from the new motorway bridge, it's going to be some descent for trains to go down to reach the new tunnel under the M3. Is this the sop given to complete The Sacred Highway, whilst also condemning any chance of the rail being restored?

And here is said box. Note its already flooded and they are constantly pumping water out of it. For newcomers the original rail line used to run at a level just above the top of this concrete blackhole. To the left it approaches on an embankment. Futureproffing? Eh...sorry, but no. Just sopping.

To put it in perspective, the first snap shows the M3 in exactly the same spot last Summer. It was getting ready for Tar. Then they seemed to realise that a "structure" had to go in and thats whats in the second snap. But its a waste of time and absolutely nobody can confirmed what was actually meant to be built here and how. It like something out of the X-Files and the amount of mulders and Scullys up in MCC is really funny.:D
Anyway to stay on topic, a railway to Cavan and Monaghan...eh don't you think we've enough railway crime on our hands as it is.:eek:

cannistown2.jpg
As it was in June 08. You can see the original railway road bridge on the right and the very clear evidence that they are ready to lay tar.

cannistownblackhole.jpg
As it is as of today. The Navan subway. Opps they nearly forgot it. I wish they had.

Seth Brundle

IIMII wrote: »

They have. Sank the box in 2 weeks ago, just haven't had a chance to snap it. We just need Navan's 3rd viaduct at the back of the Old Bridge Inn and we're away on a hack

I just noticed DWCommuter's posts!

Ham'nd'egger

DWCommuter wrote: »

And here is said box. Note its already flooded and they are constantly pumping water out of it. For newcomers the original rail line used to run at a level just above the top of this concrete blackhole. To the left it approaches on an embankment. Futureproffing? Eh...sorry, but no. Just sopping..

Are you sure that the water on the site isn't from either the construction work or rain?

Irish and Proud

murphaph wrote: »

[sarcasm]Palerail etc.!:mad: [/sarcasm]

...but Dublin and it's hinterland forms the main engine of our economy and badly needs additional rail infrastructure - particularly the Docklands - of course, we should spread economic activity out more (ie. national spatial strategy), but now is not the time - we're in a recession!!!

If Dublin sinks, we all sink! :eek:

bauderline

So what's your weed about the train going under the road rather than over it ? Does it really matter as longs as its functional....

B.

dowlingm

bauderline - given what's been going on near Ennis recently I wouldn't blame IE if they wanted to be "on top"...

bauderline

With a properly designed drainage system it shouldn't be an issue......

murphaph

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...but Dublin and it's hinterland forms the main engine of our economy and badly needs additional rail infrastructure - particularly the Docklands - of course, we should spread economic activity out more (ie. national spatial strategy), but now is not the time - we're in a recession!!!

If Dublin sinks, we all sink! :eek:

I know, didn't you see I was being sarcastic IaP?

dowlingm

bauderline wrote: »

With a properly designed drainage system it shouldn't be an issue......

Precisely my point. Hopefully they don't employ the guys who sized the Ringsend Sewerage Works...

IIMII

The shouldn't be a problem. The line is at it's highest point between the Boyne and Navan at roughly that point.

Victor

Judgement Day wrote: »

I love a really rational, well thought out response to a suggestion. There is every case to be made for rebuilding the Inny Junction/Cavan line - far more worthwhile than the Interconnector or the WRC or Metro North. I am watching a good movie now and can't be bothered to expound further on this until tomorrow but like General MacArthur 'I will return'.

While I think corktina was unfair in his response, it is for a proponent to prove teh case, not for opponents to disprove it.

bauderline wrote: »

With a properly designed drainage system it shouldn't be an issue......

Hahahahhah <cough> <cough>