High ammonia - tropical aquarium

wanalulu

Hi everyone,
I have 2 tanks - one of which has an extremely high ammonia level. This is my newest one, but it has been up and running about 6 months. Ive been using ammo lock for almost 2 weeks and doing partial water changes. The ammonia level has not decreased even slightly. Nitrites and nitrates are perfect - any ideas wot to do next?
Also, in my other tank, ive recently added a sucker fish - he is pooing an unbelievable amount. I siphon the gravel, and within hours its full of poop again - is this normal?!
Thanks

Limerick Bandit

Do a water change ASAP
you will get lots of help here http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/cms/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,52/

LB

wanalulu

Hi LB,
Thanks for the reply - i have been doing daily water changes of 20% - i did do a 75% water change as soon as i noticed the problem. Is it ok to keep changing the water? Sorry, Im not v good at this!!! I thought i would kill beneficial bacteria if i kept changing water?
Ill check out suggested website - thanks

Puddleduck

Hey, have you tested the water you are putting into the tank? You can get a product called safe start that you can keep adding to your water to keep the bacteria up, but Id keep doing big water changes until the ammonia levels go down.

wanalulu

Hey,
Yep, i always add safe start everytime i add water. I just cant understand it, im baffled!!! The fish are behaving normally. The first sign of trouble was wen the water went all cloudy. I left a friend in charge of the fish wen i was on hols and i have a feeling he may have rinsed the filter sponge under the tap instead of in tank water - would this cause it? (If it has i will kill him :mad:) Even if this was the case, surely there would have to be some nitrites or nitrates present?
Sorry for all the questions :cool:

wanalulu

6 pretty developed babies hav now appeared out of nowhere in the ammonia tank - should i moe them to my other tank or just leave them? Also, shud i move some of the fish from ammonia tank to my other tank? do platys and tetras get on with gouramis? Again, sorry for all questions :P

paulbohs

Your tank has been set to 0. All your bacteria has died. This would happen if your sponges were washed under non tank water. Even washing in tank water is not ideal. I have at least 2 sponges and wash 1 in tank water each time. Your bacteria would also die if your filter was unplugged and the bacteria where deprived of oxygenated water. You now have lots of ammonia, bacteria will now be created to convert amonia to nitrite. Nitrite is even worse for fish than ammonia. After this another type of bacteria will multiply to convert nitrites to nitrate. You need ammonia at 0 ppm and nitrites at 0 ppm and nitrates at less than 20 ppm for your fishes health.

Have you anyone near you that could give you some used filter media? You need to get all of those fish out of that tank if possible. If you have to leave a few hardy species in to cycle the tank, maybe you could leave 2. It will take 6 weeks at least to cycle your tank. I think your best bet would be to go to one of the better aquarium shops and buy organic aqua. That stuff will fix the tank. Like limerick bandit says, there are 2 sites in ireland dedicated to fish keeping where you might find someone close able to find filter media. www.irishfishforums.com and www.irishfishkeepers.com you'll need used filter media or space in your 2nd tank or organic aqua to save your fish. Best of luck.

Senor Willy

Get a bucket or a fish bag and add a small bit of water from your established tank to it.
Take the sponges from your established tank and squeeze them in this water. Add this water directly to the tank with the Ammonia. It should sort out the problem straight away.

Ps. Don`t feed your fish until you get it sorted.

wanalulu

Thanks so much for all ur help,
Ill move as many fish into established tank as i can fit. I guess ill have to leave the babies where they are tho?
Ill try all suggestions and hopefully it will sort the problem out.
Before i do this, let me explain something:
I bought new tank and transferred filter from established tank (as it had a spray bar on it - my new tank is hexagon shaped and other filter was causing a whirlpool effect!) There is a brand new filter in my old tank, only running a couple of weeks - will i still squeeze this sponge? Should i take 50% of established tank water and transfer to new (problem) tank?
Id say im driving ye all mad, im so confued
Thanks again, and this is DEFINITELY my last question lol

Senor Willy

You won`t need to move the fish or add 50% of the water.
The Squeezings should do the trick.
If you have some of that Tetra Safe Start then use this as well.

paulbohs

you will defenitely need to move your fish. some tank water wont settle your new sponges immediately.... thats crazy talk. It might speed the 6 week process up a small bit. Better idea is to cut your sponge in half and put half in each tank. I would not squeeze your sponge until the problem is sorted as this just damages the bacteria colony (usually this wont matter as loads survive but you need all the bacteria you can get). also the tank water and squeezing is a waste of time as your substrate contains bacteria just nowhere near enough to fix this straight away. Ideally get some more mature filter media from a fellow fish lover.

Those products don't work in my opinion. Only one with any tests done is organic aqua. ask a reputable fish store which one you need if you go this route as there are many types.

Senor Willy

Paul.
I have done this many times and it is the besy way to sort out the problem. I have even done it to a Discus tank and added fish the same day. It is the best way to seed any tank and it not rubbish talk.

wanalulu

Im back again! My ammonia levels have not decreased at all - this has been going on since xmas eve - have tried everything. Both tanks have high ammonia - got rid of a few fish so they are def not overcrowded.
I thought that maybe my tap water isnt the best? If i live in a hard water area, are there any tips anyone cud give me?
Not a single fish has died of ammonia poisoning - how can this be?!
HHHEEEELLLLLLLLPPP LOL!!!

Rory123

Where are you situated? It must be your tapwater. Most good fish shops will sell you Reverse Osmosis water, with the baddies taken out. Or you could buy a RO machine for 200 to 300 euro. Fish shops charge about a euro a litre so u might be better off investing in a RO system yourself in the long run.
You could research the process on youtube.

wanalulu

thanks for the reply - im in kilcock, kildare. I dont tink i cud afford either one of those options - what is an RO, does it just fit to your taps? i did come to the conclusion that it was the water in the area but ive been running one of the tanks here for a year and a half and the problem only came about a few months ago.

wanalulu

how about a water softener - wud that do any gud?

boroughmal

I have met many fishkeepers like you that clean almost too thoroughly.
Whatever water you are using and whatever chemicals you are using will only add to your problems here.
To decrease ammonia leave ammonia to cycle---- during that cycle the filters will increase aeromonas to eat all this from your tank and produce nitrite. when this cycle is finished Nitrobacter will grow to eat all the dead aeromonas and produce nitrate.
this is the "cycle". when doing this, leave your tank alone & you will not have to clean it again for a year unless you are "overfeeding" your tank.
All nitrite or ammonia in the water added or water in it will be "processed" without chemicals,tap water conditioners & organic aqua

Fish can stand high levels of ammonia & nitrite & nitrate. The main killer is spikes of each of these as the fish cant adjust fast enough in their metabloisym to cope with it.
Leave well alone & enjoy your fishkeeping

Fishyfreak

Forget RO water, for God's sake what kind of suggestion is that.

It sounds like you have one established filter and one dead one. Split the sponge, ceramic etc between the two filters. Don't clean them at all.

Do a massive water change (40%) with dechlorinated water. Stop using Ammo-lock for a while, this product may also be distorting your test kit readings. Also, what is the expiry on your test kit? They don't last long.

Remove all decor and hoover the gravel with a siphon, place decor back in. Get rid of Suckerfish (common pleco it sounds like), biggest myth in fishkeeping that the clean, all they do is produce cr*p.

Get onto one of the above sites and find someone local who can give you some squeezings or a slab of established sponge. Until then frequent water changes are a must. How big are the tanks? Are the filters adequate?

Also the link for the LFKS is www.irishfishforum.com, not fishforums.

Good luck.

wanalulu

thanks again for the replies - I have 2 x 60 litre tanks. One has a fluval plus2 filter, the other has an aquapro M700. I am using an API freshwater master test kit but cannot find an expiry date on it. Ive had it about 7 months.
I tink the aquarpro filter is a bit crap but its the only one i can find wit a spray bar - unless someone else can recommend another one?
Please define "frequent" water changes? I am currently siphoning the gravel and changing 30% water once a week.
I tink ur rite about the RO water, I asked in petshop and he nearly bit my head off lol!!

wanalulu

Also - im getting v confused wit all the conflicting advice - one person says leave it alone and the other says change the water!!!!! I tnk a show of hands is in order :cool:

Rory123

Fishyfreak wrote: »

Forget RO water, for God's sake what kind of suggestion is that.

Oh my god I am so so so so so sorry. I hang my head in shame.

hill16dub

plecs are great for removing algae, they are very sturdy fish even with not great qualtiy water.

Large water changes are not the way to go, they upset the balance in the water, it should only be a last resort.

The advice previously on nitrites/amonia and nitrates is sound.

you should do a once off test on your tap water, yes ammo lock etc should clear a lot of the crap from tap water.
You need to follow the exact measurements.
Unless there is wide spread fish death be patient, keep doing partial water changes ensure the right chemical amount is added each time. use stress coat to aid the fish
it will come good but not over night but dont make huge water changes.

plecs are great cleaners and i had one for 10 years. The one thing to note is clean the gravel every week in the short term, clean the filter when it appears to be clogging up but leave the activated charcoal alone.

Fishyfreak

hill16dub wrote: »

plecs are great for removing algae, they are very sturdy fish even with not great qualtiy water.

Large water changes are not the way to go, they upset the balance in the water, it should only be a last resort.

The advice previously on nitrites/amonia and nitrates is sound.

you should do a once off test on your tap water, yes ammo lock etc should clear a lot of the crap from tap water.
You need to follow the exact measurements.
Unless there is wide spread fish death be patient, keep doing partial water changes ensure the right chemical amount is added each time. use stress coat to aid the fish
it will come good but not over night but dont make huge water changes.

plecs are great cleaners and i had one for 10 years. The one thing to note is clean the gravel every week in the short term, clean the filter when it appears to be clogging up but leave the activated charcoal alone.

Adult Plecs are terrible algae cleaners, all they do is crap all over the tank. Massive water changes are essential of you have high Nitrite/Ammonia, it needs to be diluted immediately as the filter cannot cope due to lack of bacteria.

Again Ammo-lock is a short-term solution. Shouldn't be used all the time as a properly cycled tank should have zero Ammonia.

Remove the activated carbon, it doesn't last long at all and should be replenished every few weeks. It is taking up space in the filter that could be used for mechanical/biological filtration.

hill16dub

he must have ate the mars bars i gave him for 10 years:rolleyes:

hill16dub

if you read the post massive water changes didn't work nor have they ever ffs

Fishyfreak

Is it a gibbiceps plec or an Ancistrus (Bristlenose)?

Just because there is little algae in the tank doesn't mean he is eating it.:rolleyes:

Fishyfreak

hill16dub wrote: »

if you read the post massive water changes didn't work nor have they ever ffs

You my friend are wrong, massive water changes from time to time are well needed particularly if the filter is dead.

How else would the fish survive? A 10-25% change isn't going to do anything.

hill16dub

if you read the previous comments properly i said it was a last resort. It should always be a last resort. Also reading previously you will see it didn't work and there is another issue.

There is no point taking out a whole load of crap and putting in more crap in its place.

by the sound of it the whole bioligical process isn't been left enough time to work, or the water being put into it is not sound.

Blaming the plec is a load of bull, they are great algae eaters mine kepy my tank clean for many years, if your feeding it daily with other substitutes then obviously it wont be as effective.

the gravel needs to cleaned regulairly if youhave a plec as it does crap a bit.

Changing the media every two weeks??? Dont think so.

Fishyfreak

hill16dub wrote: »

There is no point taking out a whole load of crap and putting in more crap in its place.

by the sound of it the whole bioligical process isn't been left enough time to work, or the water being put into it is not sound.

Blaming the plec is a load of bull, they are great algae eaters mine kepy my tank clean for many years, if your feeding it daily with other substitutes then obviously it wont be as effective.

the gravel needs to cleaned regulairly if youhave a plec as it does crap a bit.

Changing the media every two weeks??? Dont think so.

Who is blaming the plec? All I said is that they produce a lot of waste.

Hoovering the gravel is essential in any healthy aquarium. Don't disagree there.

Who said changing the media every 2 weeks????? Of course not!!! BUT changing activated carbon after a couple of weeks is what you need to do. There are only so much it can do before it wastes. It is using up space in the filter that is badly needed for biological filtration. The only time I have ever changed my filter media is when i've given some away to help seed a new tank.

wanalulu

Hey,
Thanks for all the replies - the plec is def a bot of a disaster - i got the ammonia and nitrates perfect in one of my tanks but the tank with the pleco in it is still sky high. A few fish died due to internal bacteria, I now have 3 gouramis, pleco, 2 tetras and 2 neons. In my other tank there are just babies.
What i found worked was feeding only every second day and leaving the tank lights off for a week - seemed to do the trick in one tank but i still need help with the other one! Nitrates, nitrites are fine its just high ammonia.
So will i do one big water change or several small ones?

Thanks again

wanalulu

also guys, please forgive my stupidity - but how do u test the tap water?!!!

Fishyfreak

It's strange that Ammonia is high but Nitrites are not, usually they are linked, due to the Nitrogen Cycle.

You can get test kits in any decent shop and a lot of shops will test your water if you bring them a small sample.

How do you know that Ammonia is high if you don't know how to test the water?

Is the tank underfiltered perhaps? What size is it? What sort of weekly maintenance do you do?

Normally small regular water changes are what you need to do, i.e 20% but in extreme circumstances large ones are needed.

Perhaps the water from the tap isn't good quality. Maybe test it straight from the tap and also test some tank water.

wanalulu

thanks for the reply - i have a test kit for testing tha tank water - when people say test the tap water, do they mean test it in the same way u would test the tank water??
Its a 60 litre tank with a fluval 2plus filter.
I would usually do a 30% water change every 2 weeks. Im just not sure really what to do re water changes cos i get so much conflicting advice!! Yep its very strange cos everything is fine but the ammonia and it has been high since before xmas! ive only recently started to lose fish, they were all fine even tho ammonia was high.

Fishyfreak

wanalulu wrote: »

thanks for the reply - i have a test kit for testing tha tank water - when people say test the tap water, do they mean test it in the same way u would test the tank water??

Yeah, no harm in testing the water source. You never know.

30% every two weeks is absolutely fine, stick with that.

With the tank being so small it can be hard to keep the parameters stable but assuming it's cycled their really shouldn't be a problem.

Do you dechlorinate your water when you change the water? (Tap water contains chlorine which can kill filter bacteria and lead to an ammonia spike)

Did anyone clean the filter under the tap? (Again, same effect as above)

Any ornaments/decor that might have a dead fish decomposing under?

These are all just stabs in the dark here, hopefully it's of some use to you.

Senor Willy

I agree with everything Fishyfreak has said.
There is some thing wrong that you are doing.

The pleco might be too big for such a small tank. They do produce
massive waste.

Always wash your filters in dirty tank water.

Add dechlorinator before adding fresh water to the tank.

I don`t think your tap water contains ammonia unless it is coming from a
spring. If you are going to test it then make sure you leave the tap water
over night ( 24h ) or you won`t get a proper result.
If it does contain Ammonia then I would get a water butt and add a filter and a heater and cycle my water before doing water changes.

You might want to do more frequent water changes until the problem
resides. Fish cannot tolerate high levels of Ammonia or Nitrite.

An RO unit won`t remove Ammonia. The particles are too small.

You have to change carbon every two or three weeks. Unlike Marine
Poly filter, Activated carbon will release any toxins ( gradually ) that it has removed once it is exhausted.
Carbon still won`t remove Ammonia.

Tetra Safe start is an excellent product. I used it many times when I kept
Tropical fish and never had any losses.

www.irishfishforum.com is an irish site that specialises in all aspects of
fishkeeping. You will find out everything you need to know there.

wanalulu

thanks again for all the replies - I think im going to give plec back to lfs and ill probably give them by baby fry too. Think i mite empty one tank and cycle it all over again.
I left a friend in charge of the tanks and i think he did rinse the sponges under the tap (he denies it but i dont believe him, the sponges were so clean they looked like new!!) But even at that, that was in december so should have re-cycled already.

Ill keep trying different things n see how i get on. I did use Am Guard aswell which worked but ive run out of it n dunno where to buy it

Fishyfreak

I reckon you just need to re-seed the filter with sponge from an established filter. Do regular small changes and cut the feeding down to every 2 or 3 days.

The Plec will outgrow the tank anyway but plenty of shops won't be willing to take large ones back.

If you are looking for a good algae eater Ancistrus (bristlenose) catfish are good also Otocinclus are great in a small shoal.

I used a product called "Am-quel", I found it very good. I remember buying it in Boardwalk Petshop on the quays in Dublin City Centre.

Jimkel

Senor Willy wrote: »

Paul.
I have done this many times and it is the besy way to sort out the problem. I have even done it to a Discus tank and added fish the same day. It is the best way to seed any tank and it not rubbish talk.

Agreed have done this 100's of times literally! Works a charm instant seeding!

wanalulu

Hey guys,

So a lot of my fish have died of internal bacteria (treated but didnt work) so i have now got one empty tank. Was thinking of starting all over again with this tank and cycling etc. So i have a few questions:

(1) do i just empty all the water and refill
(2) Does my filter have to remain running to keep any remaining bacteria
(3) Should i cycle with or without fish

etc etc

Any tips would be greatly appreciated

Fishyfreak

Sorry to hear that.

How do you know it was internal bacteria? Could it have been ammonia poisoning?

Is the equipment still running? Hopefully it is as if you turned off the filter it will kill off the bacteria that it contains. The bacteria need oxygen to survive and multiply, this is given to it by the flow that passes through the filter when it's running. Also the bacteria need a source of Ammonia to survive too, but this isn't a problem as there will be enough available to it in the tank to keep it ticking over in the absence of fish.

I strongly suggest you do the following:

1. Change 50% of the tank water with Dechlorinated water. Dechlorinating the water is very very important, tapwater contains chlorine (a form of bleach!)

2. Get in touch with someone that owns an established aquarium, get a slab of filter sponge from them and place it in the filter. This will give you 100% assurance that your filter can cope with the new stock.

3. Get 4 zebra danios/swordtails. These are common (and nice) community fish that are available in every decent petshop. Most importantly they are tough and adaptable to newly set up tanks.

4. Join the Leinster Fishkeeping Society Forum, it's a free, friendly forum that is set up to help people out in the hobby. There are over 300 members with a variety of experience that will guide you through setting up the tank. www.irishfishforum.com

All the best.

wanalulu

Thanks for the reply - im quite sure it was internal bacteria as they had all the very same symptoms. I brought one of the fish to lfs and they diagnosed the internal bacteria.
The filter is still running thank god, i was afraid to touch it before i got advice!
because the water thats in the tank has very highg ammonia level, I was thinking of just emptying the tank and refilling with 100% new water and cycling it like its \ brand new tank but just wit the old filter - Is it ok to do this or should i just keep half the old water in it?
Also, as i would be getting new fish to cycle it, surely they would just die straight away in the ammonia filled water!??